go back to basic. 3 weeks ago Bailey was doing double blind retrieves, recall 95% and heelwork near perfect. 3 days ago he lost it completely, no recall and when he finally came back flew at me, hit me in the chest and knocked me over. He thought this was hilarious and playbowed and taunted me. for 3 days now he has defied me in every way possible even to the point of lying on his back and going limp making it difficult for me to have any control. Tonight at training he did nothing, not even a sit, and his retrieves were lifted but he did three circuits before someone finally caught him,it didnt help when everyone laughed, the little s*d played to the audience, I had to leave as this is the very first time I have ever been angry. (more with the people than Bailey) He is now 8 months and Kevin has emerged. All my dogs have gone through minor Kevin phases but nothing like this. Do I stop training as much and just keep him on lead for his walks (he hasnt been on a lead for months) or do I stick with it. I dont want all our good work to go down the drain we were also on they way for his KCGC gold and at the moment we havent got a hope yet 3 weeks ago he passed his silver without fault. sorry this is so long, but it really is very condensed. Any advice would be appreciated. At the moment I feel a complete failure.
Kay

The joys of dogs training & owning, do not feel a failure I know exactly where you are coming from & can say been there, done that got the t shirt

I would go back to walks on lead simply to restablish the control & go back to basics with training

At training I would have a quiet word with the trainer & get them to tell the rest of the class not to react when he misbehaves & not to try & catch him as they joining in his "play"time. I do tell people not to laugh when a dog misbehaves for this reason.You were right to leave being angry would be like adding fuel to the fire.

Keep plugging away he will come good in the end

I'd be inclined to try and avoid putting him in situations where he can learn to stick two fingers up at you - and if that means lead walks for a while, then so be it.......  Make sure your relationship stays balanced, with lots of opportunities to do the 'right thing' at home and when you've got time (don't reward any nonsense in any way - including looking at him, speaking about him etc.) and hopefully it should pass - good luck!

Back to basics, back to basics and back to basics.  The three golden rules!

Every time you don't have the control over your dog that you would like (and he challenges you) then go straight back to basics and work up again.  You've got nothing to lose by doing that apart from more time for the basic commands to go further into his brain! 

Thanks, Back to basics it is. I must admit, this is really where I miss Megan, she was 100% and all training with my other dogs included her, she taught them more than I ever could.

Kay, I also should have said, please don't feel a failure!  You certainly aren't.  The only dog owning failures are those who don't make any efforts to train their dogs or have them under control.  Also, basic stuff IS serious training. 

My dogs are working gundogs and was first day out for them last Saturday.  In the week or two leading up to that day I did nothing but sit/stay stuff just so that I could be sure I had them completely under control.  They raise their eyes heavenward and tut at me no end, but they soon realise that they are going nowhere and so sit back and do what I ask!

I agree with the back to basics advice  and avoiding getting into situations where he can give the two fingers ;)

I have to say one of the best lessons i learnt in fact was to just chill over some of the aspects of training i have had most trouble with and just gone out for walks with my dog to enjoy her. It's easy for training to become everything and for the relationship to become tense due to training problems. It can happen to anyone. I found that having a break and then going back a couple of weeks later with a more positive outlook and relaxed attitude  helped a lot and i have also found that my dog is often better for a few days or even a few weeks break. The best search square we ever did was after a break of 3 months!!

Good luck anyway,

Lindsay
X

if you just go back for a day or two,to real basics,that you are confident in,keep it short & sweet,but demand 100% attention & effort when you are doing it,then break off & have a real game,
on your training seession,play more than train so it keeps your dogs attention,do really short easy exercises,
ie  ask for a sit,just for a few seconds,but expect a perfect one,then have loads of play

    ask for a few seconds of pure attention work then have a brilliant game

if you are controlling,ie starting & stopping,the play,im sure it will help, if he starts to be a idiot just (if its safe to do so) turn your back & walk way,so he learns its your way or NO way.

as youve already taught him so well you will soon get back on track,you wont need to reteach everything.
i often back track,cos it really builds confidence

It is difficult to play with Bailey as he does not play. He shuns cuddles, he is the little boy that hates granny kisses if you know what I mean, His quality time with me is head in my lap on the sofa. He has always been very independant. It has seemed to me that his pleasure came from his training since up till now he has been so easy and very focused. All my other dogs love the cuddles and jumps of joy when their training goes well, Bailey always found a way out of this touchy feely thing, a scratch here, a yawn there etc. I tried this on our solo walk this morning and play is not an option. We came home, in the living room I asked for a come, a sit and a stand, he reacted immediately so I left it at that before he got the chance to be defiant. Softly softly catchy monkey. I hope

hmm? so he dosent want to play with you,but when hes being a b****r,hes happy to clown around & play???

will he not play tug/ragger with you? if he wont have you tried a really long bit of rope? with abit of distance he may play?

i still think if you can get him to play it will be the answer as it seems to me hes now having his fun without you? do you see? if having his own fun is more exciting than training then gguess what he may opt for?

there is a saying in obedience from charlie wyant (king of dogdom!)
"wont play wont work"

what breed is he?

As a working gundog don't play Rugger with him! You could easily end up with two halves of a pheasant and at the very least you stand a strong risk of loosing the present with dummies in working tests!

As others have said, back to basics. Remember, he is still very young and doing a double blind he is very advanced. You are into the stage of never giving a command unless you are in a position to enforce it at the moment so you do not devalue those commands.

Remember, training is never easy, if it was all retrievers would be FT Ch's. You should soon work through it but in the mean time cast your mind back to the last few times you went training. What were you doing? Was there anything different? It is so easy for a dog to misunderstand, possibly something you thought was "Fixed" and the dog responds to that confusion by getting apprehensive and this often shows up as a complete loss of control, almost as if the dog is trying to cover it's apprehension with a show of bravado.

Regards, John

2 steps forward, 10 steps back is how dog training is.

As everyone else said, go back to basics (been there, done that).  Do some simple retrieves in a corridor so he can't go anywhere else but to you.  You'll get there, we all do - eventually :-D

Helen

Hi Kay
John got there on the tug play stuff before me, but it is maxim my mother always held - never play tug with a dog - any dog, let alone a gun dog. If the dog wins the tug game, he may (especially if male) get the idea that he has physical dominance over you, and then you are on a slippy slope.

Bye
Patricia

ROFL letting a dog keep the tuggy means it is dominant Sorry I have to disagree my cavaliers & I regularly play tuggy & especially if they have been good during training they get to keep the tuggy & no way are they"dominant"over me. Keeping the tuggy is their reward same with the GSDs & BCs I have owned

Far too many dogs are "diagnosed"as dominant, for just being a dog

sorry didnt realise she was training him for gun work!!!! i thought it was for gold award,as mentioned in oringinal post!!!!

i know nothing about gun dog training so dont listen to me!!!!

how ever i dont think there is ANYTHING wrong with playing tug with a non gundog,i let mine win at times! :0
& they havent taken over the world yet!
controlling the game is what its all about!

Thanks all for your replies.
Michelle my apologies, He is doing his gold, but I am also training him as a gundog and showing him.
Bailey has been so easy and willing, he has been doing his blind retrieves since he was 5 months his first perfect double at only 28 weeks, this is the reason I am amazed at the depth of regression. Maybe too much too soon.
I do not play tugger or play ball with him as his tennis ball is the second part of his retrieve, his ball and dummy are work tools not toys.
We have a battle of wills. At the moment he is just being wicked, (not bad just bored) . We did no training at all today and he is so active at the moment looking for something but not knowing what it is, because we have done no brainwork. He is a very high drive dog (his father is Belg, Norw, and Internation Full Champion, FT and Show) that seems to have lost all direction.
I cannot think of anything that has changed with his training with me or in his classes. Same dogs and no problems with any of them, they all get on well. Tomorrow is another day. Thanks everyone for you comments. much appreciated.

Don't think his being wicked, just a sloppy teenager thing, as you hear all parent's say ooo it's just a phase. If his having a growing spurt in his life, I think it's best to leave it for a while. Once you start serious training again let us know how you get on. Viv

i would possibly contact his breeder to see if his parents went through similar?
alot of flynns probs in his obedience work,you can see through the line,in his mum & brothers & sisters & his dad in his younger days

Thanks everyone, I have decided to give Bailey a complete rest from training for a couple of weeks and just take solo walks on the lead
Vivian, sorry, when I said wicked I did mean it in the nicest way. I love him to bits, unconditional.
Will let you know how we get on.

Well, we are making a little headway. Bailey has been retrieving white elephant goods from all over the ouse, he keeps bringing me little presents. For a few days I have actually refused him training and I dont know whether the reverse pschycology is working but basically if he doesnt work when I want him to then I wont train when he wants me to. Because we have done nothing he has now started to look at me again and has that expectant look on his face. He has done a couple of recalls short ones and I had his full attention at the time, but its a start.  This morning he was playing with Tia and I walked away, recalled Bailey and he came immediately. I now have short span attention periods from him and this is what we will build on until he settles. Many thanks again to all for advice. I am sure I will be back
Kay