Went to a Companion show recently and stood in a HUGE puppy class. To while away the time I started wondering why the small dogs always get to be seen first ? is there a Kennel Club ruling on this or is it just tradition ?, When the steward asked everyone to stand their dogs as the judge was taking a final look - all those with mad wriggling Large breeds pups had to make them stand still for twice as long as the folk with little breeds. Also got the distinct feeling that by the time the judge had reached the end of the class she'd kind of lost the will to live :-D. Why can't the dogs be seen as they come in i.e in any order or if the arguement is that that they need to be moved together according to size , why can't the big dogs go first ? come to think of it - they do this at Open and Champ shows too in the variety classes - anyone know WHY ???

It is the norm rather than a rule, some judges like them round the other way and a few will take them as they come. It is up to the judge to judge the exhibitors as they decide they find the best way for them, personally I like the males first in a single breed class and in a mixed breed I like any member of the same breed or similar breed together but I don't mind them mixed table and floor because it helps the back unless it is a small ring or a large class and then I like the table first so it can be moved out of the way for the floor dogs.

Sure that does not make sense but, no rule it is up to the judge to organise the ring as they wish just as it is up to them how the dogs are moved and if they are moved before examination or after or both. In a large class you may even find half the class sent out of the ring to relax whilst half the class is juged and about 5 are picked out then your half will be judged and then the judge will take some of your half and judge them against the 5 or so from the first half and pick the award winners from the best of the two halves rather than from the whole class.

Its the norm thing to do, so most people do it, personally I like big dogs up frount, small dogs behind.  My reasoning?  Simple:

If I want to send all the dog around in a circuit, I can either split into big dogs then small dogs (this can also be done the other way round of small dogs first, big dogs last)  and also, if I have a small entry of say 2 big dogs and a small dog then I can move them all in a circuit together without the big dog running over the small dog! 

But thats me personally.  Seens my mixed breed are normally in junior handling classes it is also a safty because not all handlers know how to handle running behind a slow dog!

Thinking about it I think it may be stewards who cause this. You ask the judge how they want the ring arranged and they look vaguely around the ring, so you suggest do you want the table dogs first? OH! Yes please they say and wander off distracted.

It is up to the judge but if the table judged breeds are seen firat or last it is more sensible to seen them as a group so that you are not switching from table to floor all the time. when judging, It also means the table dogs can be set up whilst the judge is watching the previous dog. & the handler can get out of the way & behind the table before the judge looks at the dog.

I've always found it much easier to poise a dog on the floor than on the table(one of my BC's who did agility always tried to get on the table to be judged ;). A unobservant judge hadn't noticed he was a BC & not a sheltie & waved to me saying "you can put your dog on the table"& so I obliged His face was a picture when he turned round & saw my BC stood perfectly on the table :D

Maybe the stewards are tidy people who like a tidy ring! There no rule as to which goes first but it makes sense to divide them if it's a large class & the judge wants to move all the small dogs then all the biggies! If you're at the end of the line, those at the front could argue that you've got twice as long to set your dog up as they have! Can't please everyone!
Anwen
(with strictly medium size dogs that the stewards never know where to put!)

Ahhh but Jackie, when you get a judge that knows exactly what he/she wants and tells the steward before hand.....But yes alot of ring organisation is down to the steward.  When I have my stewarding hat on (rare occassion due to normally handling!) I will ask the judge BEFORE judging comences where they would like dogs stood, woudl they like coners clear/ top side of ring clear, where they would liek to do there critiques etc etc etc!  I'm sure that most stewards do do this aswell......

It is normally done that way so that as soon as the 'table' dogs are seen & moved, then the table can be cleared away leaving more room for the larger dogs where the Judge ges over them :D

Never seen the table cleared away though ;-)( has anyone else ?). Not a big deal just a wandering thought - as you do when your'e standing in the middle of a muddy field in the howling wind trying to control a nutty 7 month Belgian pup !! :-D

Yes, I have seen the table moved, the last champ stakes class I did the judge asked for the table to be moved so the larger dogs could be moved in a straight line. Don't think you can expect too much from a companion show judges, in most cases they will and can only judge on condition and movement as the do not have the experiance to do anything else.

The "Small dogs to the back" brigade can be infurating if you have a small but extravagentoly moving breed!  Just imagine, you are the smallest of your group, but the norm is to move them at speed, and you frequently get stuck behind much slower breeds in NSC/groups(anyone else ever compared the average speed of movement between breeds like Sussex and Clumber spaniels, compared to American cockers?

Sorry all -  my little rant for the day, just vaguely related to the topic!
bye
Gwen

My worst nightmare is when they decide to put my breed with the smaller dogs, or put us behind whippets and beagles!  They are a medium sized breed, but should move out briskly.

But gwen, your americans, although fast, are alot slower then say a setter!  As someone who likes small dogs to the back, its all general.  I could get the steward to spend the first 5/10 mins sorting breeds into speed order, and numerous times in the group have I had the judge maybe put and GSD to the frount, but a samyoud and an aussie, both the same sizeish, yet the aussie much faster!

Unfortantly we can't make it suitable for all breeds can we?  I understand what you say, but we can't have everything right for everyone all the time unfortantly!

LOL you wouldn't like my cavaliers then as I would be over running most of the Gundog & hound group One reason when I am in a breed class I like to be at the front as I cannot stand having someone in front to moves to hide their dogs movement like a snail Even at the Companion shows & in all breed classes I've been in comes from years of showing good moving dogs in huge classes nothing like setting the pace with a sound dog to show up the poor movers

yeah but why run them all together in the first place ? - I can see why you might want to move two dogs together if you can't make up your mind between the two but moving 10 all at once ( or more ?) - sorry I just don't get it  :-o

Your never going to get a true picture of how they move when they're all bunched up anyway and they will all be moved individually. It's different in a breed class because you are comparing like with like but I tink it's unneccessary ain variety classes or Companion shows !

Depends how quickly the person can move as well!

On the subject of companion shows, I have entered Fagan into a few and the last two he got placed 2nd and 6th (I think he could have been placed higher but he is a proper wriggler at the end when the judge is choosing ( :rolleyes: ) anyway to get to the point, Fagan is slightly over shot (his head is still growing) and he only has one ball ( ) the judge last week was apparantly a good all rounder and judges groups at champ shows so why did he pull out Fagan above some of the other dogs  (and he most definitely checked his nether regions :-O ) the judge when he got second I dont think checked his balls but did check his teeth, this judge I believe is also a "proper" judge.  Are they looking at the "whole" dog meaning that say because he has a good head they dont necessarily overlook his faults but discount them ? or do they just not know what they are doing ? ;)

Claire

Maybe they reckon his good points are good enough to outweigh his faults?

JG thats exactly what I was trying to say - just took me about 20 sentences to say it :D :D :D

I was hoping thats what the judges were thinking  and not that they just pull him out because he has a nice expression and a shiny coat ;)

I would guess that with fagans faults the judge still believe he was better then the others, the judge may have also realised "nice overall dog, has a couple of fault but they could come with age"  The other thing is that the judge could have been mainly judging on movement and outline (teeth and balls don't get seen in this!)  and also, I know I shouldnt, but at CDS level you will have so many neuterd pet dogs I wouldn't really care about "balls" because at the end of the day, it will not affect the dogs ability to do its job and a CDS is FUN!!!!  I will not judge one asif it is crufts BIS (not that I will never judge BIS at Crufts!) but you get my point?

Yes I have confused you all now havent i?

I get you :) I was hoping thats how they judge because as I cant now show him in "proper" shows I enjoy entering him in the fun shows.

Companion Shows are meant to be fun and not to be taken too seriously, the judge will be the one who was able and willing to give up their day and pay the traveling expences needed to get to the venue. Some will be experianced group judges who happen to live near by others will be like myself, only qualified to judge one or two breeds but interested enough in dogs to be asked to judge at fun shows and matches, we, the inexperanced, do our best to give the exhibitors a good and funday out, but can't be sure that the dog who goes BIS is in fact the best dog there, we probable chucked that one out early on and it's owner will have left calling us all the names under the sun and totaly forgetting that it was suposed to be a fun day out that has cost me the judge a day of my time and about £20 in petrol but in return i have met loads of lovely dogs & happy dog owners who have all taken the best dog home.