Hi all,

We picked up our fantastic little chap yesterday.  Had 5 hours sleep last night, so excuse any typo's!

We took Ozzy to the vet yesterday, and he had his first jab, and a thorough checkover.  All went well, and the vet talked to us about diet.  He stressed how important it was to feed him the right diet because of him being a large breed, and the known problems that labs have (HD etc).  He suggest we give him Hill's Eukanuba, or Iams (yes I've seen the website on Iams, but is it true?).  The breeder feeds all her labs on skinners, and has give us a sample bag of puppy health and vitality and nature diet puppy meat to give him.  I must stress that all her labs are in fantastic condition, shiny coats and not one of them overweight).  The vet said "certain" cheaper dog foods use the beaks and feet of chickens, and the better ones use breast and leg meat - is this true?

So, is it best to go with Hills (£38 for a 15kg bag) or shall I stick to Skinners (which he yomps) at about £27 for a 15kg bag.  I appreciate it's not the cost that's important, but quality of food, but I'm really confused as to why some foods are so expensive and some a good deal cheaper, when they seem to be saying the same things on the bag?

Any advice gratefully received - post here or email me juliamhughes@tiscali.co.uk

Regards,

Julia

Congrats on your new pup - he sounds lovely!

Re feeding - for at least a fortnight keep him on what he's used to. His digestive system is used to Skinners, so stick with it. A sudden change of food can cause tummy upsets in young pups (as can any change - water etc) and make them quite poorly, which would be a shame as he's so well!

In any case, I would feed Skinners rather than Hills, Eukanuba or Iams. I've fed Skinners to dogs before and they've thrived - as you saw with the breeder's dogs. I would imagine she has fed more dogs than your vet has! ;)

Good luck!

Thanks for that Jeangenie.  He certainly is doing very well - his coat shines already, and he's doing nice firm poo's!  (sorry if you've just had your tea!).  I'm a bit wary of the diets that vet's recommend - they want me to feed my old boy a special urinary tract diet from royal canin, and he hates it; and after taking advice from here (i.e. he's 17, so let him eat what he likes!) I've put him back onto tinned food in jelly, as he hasn't got many teeth and I think the dry foods are hard for him to eat.

I've ordered a bag of the Skinners from my local agricultural feeds place - you can't get it in pet shops - as I only have enough to last him a week.  So, I think I'll stick with it unless anyone comes back with anything detremental about it!

Thanks for your support.

Julia

If he's thriving (and it sounds like it!) there's no need to change. The proof of the pudding ...
:)

Meant to say to you Jeangenie, his mums name is Pudding!!!! ;)

Lol! I rest my case! :D

The little monkey is crying tonight and I don't know why!  It's so wierd, he normally goes to sleep at night, and no crying, but he is not a happy pup tonight.  Been down to let him out, just in case he's telling me he needs to wee etc. had a small wee but that's it.  Maybe he's got a pain from the cat poo he keeps eating! LOL! How disgusting is that?!

Hi Jeangenie and all - I'm now very confused and sad! :(

My fantastic 12 week old Lab has a slight bald patch on his head, in front of his ear (not completely bald, but def hair is short and thin) and a little bit of dandruff.  The vet thinks it could be a fungal infection, so pulled some hair out (so he looks even more bald!) and is sending it off to be tested.  But, if that's negative, he has to have a skin scrape to see if he has a mite of some kind.  Then she had a bit of a go about his food, and told me to change him to Hill's large breed, and it could be his food, or rather the lack of certain things in his food that is causing the hair to fall out. But then I asked could it be the central heating causing his skin to dry out and she said "yes"!  So far, it's cost me £90 to have him seen, the test, 1 bottle of shampoo, and special fatty spray for his food!

So, I'm not gonna change the food straight away, but wait for the test results, wash his head with the shampoo, spray his dinner (!) but don't they make you feel guilty?  I've looked at what's in Hills, and I wasn't that impressed.  It has the "fillers" beet pulp etc. that have been mentioned on here, and all sorts of other wierd things.  I quite like the look of JWB (I feed it to my cat - he was always starving on Hill's) but I wondered if anyone knew anything about this diet, or any other diets which would be suitable for 1 very cute black lab with bald patch and slight dandruff?!  And thanks for the advice, but I am not going down the Raw Meaty Bones route - I just couldn't cope!

Any advice very gratefully received....

Julia

Our vet recommended large breed puppy food because of the lower calcium content, which according to research is reckoned to help prevent joint problems in rapidly growing dogs.

The vet said the same thing to us.  I noticed that Pedigree actually add calcium, so I'm def going to steer clear of that one.

Thanks for your advice.

Julia

congratulations on your new puppy jules .
I would not worry once the puppy is doing good on skinners,if you think later on that he is not thriving well on it ,then you can always change to another one
Mari

IMO natural is best, vets always recommend Hills, some people say they receive a commision.......
We can go to a supermarket and buy a ready made meal containing all of the nutritional value we need for a day but it does not mean that it is better for you than meat and fresh vegetables.
Having experienced growth problems with complete foods, I now have taken the advice of my new pups breeder and only feed tripe and plain biscuit, which is all that she feeds and has produced 87 champions. My pup has 3 meals a day of tripe and Laughing Dog biscuit, I replace the tripe 3 times a week with sardines in oil and he has raw chicken wings as a treat twice a week and a teaspoon of garlic each day.

A member here had bad growth problems with her pup by feeding majority of tripe,hopefully she will post here and let you know the details.
One thing i remember her saying is that she will never feed tripe as the main source of food again!

Christine

I would feed neither Hill, Eukanuba nor IAMS if I were to feed commercial food.

IMHO the best commercial dry food is Burns which, unlike any of the foods you have mentioned is NOT tested on animals, does not have useless fillers such as sugar beet pulp, is free from artificial preservatives and added salt etc.

The brands you have mentioned are multi cereal heavy (dogs are not designed to eat cereals) and contain added salt, SBP, some varieties have linseed which is problematical for some dogs and are maize (corn) based which is tryptophan deficient.

Do please find me a dog food that uses leg and breast of lamb :D :D :D (fit for human consumption).

Nothing wrong in chicken feet either by the way.

Or I would feed Naturediet which is a complete moist food.

You are quite right in that most foods are very similar hence, when changing, you need to understand this to make any change worthwhile.

Weight is controlled by the owner, not the food;

tohme,

Thanks for your advice.  I have considered Burns.  I talked to my breeder about it, and she had heard of it and wanted to know more.  I got some Burns for my cats and they absolutely hated it, but Labradors do eat anything don't they, so he would probably yomp it down.  I have kept him on the Skinners for now, he is thriving on it.  He yomps it very quickly, his coat shines, he has stacks of energy, nice firm poos, etc, so I'm gonna stick with it I think.  You're right it does contain sugar beet pulp, linseed oil, and maize, but is wheat gluten free.  It's such a hard one to know what to give him.  I bought this dog food from a feed wholesale place, and I asked them their advice.  They told me about a dog food called Dr Johns (I think!) - they sell over a ton a week, and it is ridiculously cheap! about £7 for 15kg.  They don't make a puppy version, it's only for adult dogs, so if you or anyone knows anything about it I'd be interested to hear.

Regards,

Julia

I've been feeding tripe & biscuit to all my dogs (over about 6 mths old) for 20yrs & never had any problems.

Dr Johns is manufactured by Gilbertson & Page. The below list is the ingredients of their 'Gold Medal' brand:

Cereals, Meat & Animal derivatives, Vegetable protein extracts, Yeast, milk & Milk Derivatives, Oils & Fats, Minerals, contains antioxidants BHA and BHT.

The No.1 ingredient is cereal. Good for herbivores, completely useless for dogs.

No. 2 - 'Meat & Animal derivatives', which is a more acceptable way of describing the undescribable, i.e. everything left of an animal after all the useful bits have been removed, this can include, beaks, feathers and combs.

No. 3 - Vegetable protein extracts? I have no idea what these are, probably the waste product from human food processing

No. 4 - Yeast, this is the ingredient that is almost guaranteed to condem many dogs to a life of sore ears and itchy skin

No. 5 - milk & Milk Derivatives. Many adult dogs cannot tolerate dairy products due to lactose intolerance.

No. 6 - Oils & Fats. If this is virgin olive oil, it is okay. It is however more likely to be waste oil, again from human food processing, that has been heated. This is a known carceogen.

No. 7 - minerals. Okay, you would expect these to be added to any complete food.

No. 8 - contains antioxidants BHA and BHT. These are preservatives added to the food to stop the fat and oil going rancid. These chemicals are also linked with cancer and liver disease.

Based on the above list of ingredients the price does not sound so ridiculously cheap, does it?

snomaes

In addition to the points already made..........

Just as a matter of interest, any food that is labelled cereals, meat and animal derivatives does so because the formula is subject to change according to market prices; so the constituents are never the same.

Vegetable protein extracts are often soya derived, soya is an ill advised food for dogs, it is a goitrogen, (thyroid inhibitor) produces a lot of gas and ties up nutrients like zinc (not a good idea especially for breeds like huskies, samoyeds and malamutes etc).

A lot of people may be unaware that casomorphine and exorphines are derived from digesting milk and cereals respectively and these have been shown to alter dog behaviour as it is like giving them opiates. A lot of research has been done on autistic children and schizophrenics on this and when all milk and gluten has been withdrawn from the diet their behaviour becomes more stabilised.

Considerable weight has been given to the harm of "high protein" diets on behavioural issues but not much on this and as most commercial diets contain cereals and some contain milk (even if it is hidden) it is difficult to conduct any studies on foods and behaviour when the causes may be as multi factorial as the food content (how can you study the effects of high protein if you do not know if the results are being clouded by other issues/ingredients)?

So I would agree that based on the ingredients it would not be a food that I would pick for my dogs.......... if I had to go commercial.

A farm shop I visited tried to sell me this food once and when I asked to look at the ingredients the lady told me as far as she was concerned, who cares what it contains - her dog eats what he's given! Hmm. So does mine but he won't be having that, thank you!

Tohme - I am very interested to hear that the behaviour of schizophrenics can be stabilized by removing milk and gluten from their diet - do you know of any other food products that have that effect? I am interested as it may help someone that is close to me.

All dogs, like us, are unique, and there are a variety of disorders that can be improved or worsened by dietary manipulation IF and WHEN we discover the individual MAY have a predisposition to be unable to process certain constituents.  Metabolic disorders and their triggering mechanisms are quite complex and I am a mere layman!

Just as Fish Body Oils have been implicated in having good effects on autism, schizophrenia etc so other nutrients, neutraceuticals etc have been implicated in the opposite.

The best thing would be to go to the respective condition sites I believe and look up on there and get specialist advice from those far more qualified than me!

HTH

I knew there had to be a catch.  My vet is quite anti the skinners, but he honestly is thriving on it.  The Vet is still pushing me towards Hills large breed puppy.  Then it makes you feel guilty doesn't it?  He said that Hill's probably worked out the same price as 'cheaper' average dog foods, meaning that they're not really cheaper because you have to feed them more.  He described Skinners as an average dog food.  All I can say is my breeder feeds all her labs on Skinners, not one of them was overweight, they were all healthy and their coats shone.  It's so difficult.  I've realised from all the advice I've had that everyone has their own opinion on feeding.  It's a dificult decision to make.  And I must say, which I'd forgotten, I put my youngest cat onto Hill's, and fed him the recommended amount every day, and he was constantly hungry.  Now I've put him onto JWB, and he loves it, and doesn't always eat it all.  So maybe Hill's ain't so great...

Thanks again to all of you.

Regards,

Julia

I'm with Tohme on this one (only I actually feed Naturediet with the odd handful of Burns or maybe Nutro for treats/crunch/variety).  The cost of what you feed your dog doesn't end with what goes in the bowl - it extends to the overall health and well fare of the dog, and I've never seen healthier dogs than those fed on the higher quality diets, and I don't include the expensive 'prescription' diets from the vets in that ;)

i feed my lab pup autarky any opinions on this?

Ingredients....maize,chicken meat meal,rice,chicken fat,carrot and green leaf veg(min 4%) whole linseed,beet pulp,prarie meal,mixed herbs and(min 2%) spices,yucca,yeast.Natural anti oxidants. herbs include...aloe vera,carob,cayenne pepper,fennel,fenugreek,ginger,kelp,mint,oregano,rosemary,thyme,turmeric,valeriana root,yucca.

Like Hills, etc this is a diet based on maize, only 28% of it is chicken meat meal, the rest being made up of maize, rice, linseed, prairie meal, beet pulp etc.

Again linseed as we have said MAY be a problem to SOME dogs, maize is tryptophan deficient, yeast is a fungus, beet pulp is a filler and the value of the herbs depends a lot on their quality, age and how they are preserved otherwise these too may just as well be filler.

(Well you did ask) :D

We have a Lab puppy,6 months old,she has the same as all our other dogs.Pedigree chum puppy food,small bite mixer,1 egg also given once a week,any greens left over from meals,even the odd bowl of hot pot and a marrow bone,I am not to keen on feeding dry food.When Annie was 8 weeks she loved wheat a bix made with ewes milk.            Sheila,Annie,and Sadie.

so is it ok or not? lol I am a new dog owner and wanted a food that wasnt linked to any of the horrible animal testing malarky. He loves autarky has a shiny coat and its cheap which is an added bonus!!  I was reccommended it but wanted some expert advice

KatyB i wouldnt feed a food which has Maize as the first ingredient,i'd prefer maize to be absent in any dog food i feed!IMO it isnt o.k. There are so many better foods on the market with much nicer ingredients.

Christine

BUAV approved dog foods - ie those that can prove that no animal testing was conducted anywhere in the supply chain - there are only 8 including Naturediet, Burns, Arden Grange, if you go to the BUAV website there is a list of the others.

IMHO my choice would be Naturediet, then Burns.

I'd recommend Canine Extra from Burns Pet Nutrition (www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk) as its a natural diet based on what John Burns (who started the firm) used to recomend his vet clients cooking at home. Its very digestible so you don't get lots of poos! And theres no EEC approved preservatives and colours, its all naturally preserved.
Its what I feed my retriever pup and she's doing great. You can buy it online or from pet shops

But as is said constantly on here, what is good for one isnt good for another.  I fed my pup on Burns and he lost loads of weight and condition. I changed him onto BARF and he put on weight instantly and everyone noticed the difference in his condition. He is now on a organic complete dog food called "all in one" and also raw meat and bones, fish etc and he is doing great. 

My cats however are on burns (plus fresh fish etc) and they look fab :)

Yes, I think dogs are a bit like humans in that respect - what suits one doesn't suit another. Tell you what though, the nutritionists at Burns are extremely helpful if you have any problems or questions about feeding - there's a free helpline listed on the bag and they talk a lot of common sense.
But there's so many products our there, choosing the right one can be a nightmare, and the poor dog can't point to one ona shelf and say 'Mmm, I like the look of that one, dad!'

I agree with you on that, the nutritionists at burns were really helpful to me, right from the day I started Fagan on burns they worked out all of the amounts I should be feeding him to change him over and then when he was losing weight they sent me a free 7.5kg (I think) bag of canine extra to change him onto :)