can one of the breeders on the board explain to me the % of inbreeding.my boy is 2.1% i think without looking.
as far as i can make out he is what you would call an out cross litter.he has founding dogs in his pedigree like most leo's have some where in their line.
what is the difference between inbreed and line breed?
as far as i am aware my breeder line breeds grandparents being her founders then new lines introduced on the dam side.
if i was to get another pup from the same breeder what is the closest relative should the dam be?

she is hoping to breed his litter sister next year to an imported dog so at the closest she would be his niece on his mums side.
i would like another leo and a girl this time round with the possiblity of becoming a breeder if health permits (dogs) how can i work out which female would be a good match for him if i did allow them to be mated down the line?

Do you really want the maths? ;)

have a look at

http://ashgi.org/articles/breeding_coi.htm

The formula is on there. Actually I had an old pedigree database many years ago which gave the inbreeding coefficient but later when I started using Breedmate the results on there were different!

The difference between inbreeding and linebreeding? the same thing! It is just a matter of degrees. I would consider that if a dog appeared twice on the third line of the pedigree it would be line bred to that dog but were it nearer to the front then it would be bordering on inbred.

Regards, John

hi john
i have just looked at his line some of the dogs on both side are the same in the 4th and 5th generations,none are the same before.there is a leo database and some of the dogs 3rd and 4th are siblings but this is on both the sire and dam lines.
i know it can vary depending on the method used but this is the  coefficient method as far as i know.
how do i find out what would be a suitable dam for him if i was ever to breed.
as low as possible? different relatatives from 3rd or 4th generations.
i wouldn't want to inbreed if i could find a dam that would be totally different line.

Just about every dog is inbred (Linebred) to a certain extent. I have a database of Labradors which allows me to trace Anna's ancestors back to 1875. Looking at a six generation pedigree there are no dogs common to both the top and bottom half so one would say she is an outcross. Go back one more generation and you find the first common ancestor. Go back just 3 more generations to the 10th and there are very few unrelated dogs! And in your case, Leo's have so much smaller gene pool to start with!

Line breeding is used to "Fix" certain desired traits carried by the dog being linebred. Trouble is, it also fixes undesirable traits to! If you look at the dog which is being line bred you can get some idea what the puppies are likely to turn out like whereas with an outcross you really have no way of determining in advance which dog the puppies will take after.

The down side is that when you line breed you are only working with one set of genes. Put a different way, you are adding nothing new to the genetic makeup of the puppies. For this reason a lot of people will line breed for possibly two generations then outcross for the third so as to bring fresh genes into the equation.

Regards, John

<<Trouble is, it also fixes undesirable traits to!>>

Maybe I should say a little more about this!

Supposing for example a dog carries a hereditary defect. Call it a hereditary cataract, a simple recessive genetic problem.

Now suppose this dog is mated to a bitch who does not carry the same fault.

When the puppies are born they inherit two sets of genes. One from the sire and the other from the dam. At that point similar genes become dominant so because only one set of genes carried the defective cataract gene no puppies will have hereditary cataracts BUT they will be carriers. If one of these carriers is mated to another clear dog then roughly 50% of the puppies will be carriers. On the other hand a carrier puppy mated to an affected dog or another carrier and at least some dogs will develop cataracts.

From this it is easy to see that the further back the affected dog appears on subsequent pedigrees the less chance of coming up with a carrier on both sides of the pedigree.

Regards, John

Hi Marie

Inbreeding Co-efficients are not straight forward, as John has already mentioned.  You would need to know how many generations the 2.1% came from as a dog can be 2.1% at three or four generations but add in a few more and the number can jump considerably

For instance, my pup is 0% inbred at 4 generations - I went for an outcross mating
At 5 generations she is 1.15967%
at 10 generations she is 7.00747%
but at this point  her dam shows 15.3201% and her sire 14.5545% respectively
at 15 generations she is 11.7752% which is a big jump from the 0% at four generations

hi
i am not sure but i take it over the 5 gen or 10 i know his breeder uses software to work it all out.but i understand any dog's % would go up the more generations you included because you will get to the founders.
most leos have some form of relationship from the 4th gen because of the gene pool,even if it is sibling etc.
i still don't know how i would work out which dam would be suitable for his line.
if any one came to me for stud how do i know if the dogs are compatable and strengthen  the good points?

if any one came to me for stud how do i know if the dogs are compatable and strengthen the good points?

Now there's a good question!  How long have you got?? :p
That's exactly why it's often suggested that new breeders have a mentor with years worth of experience and knowledge.  To me it's not the % that's important.  It's the quality of the dogs in the pedigree and "knowing" each of the dogs named, so that you know the virtues and faults that each both has and carries.

im a new owner so to speak as he is only 18 months.i know what you mean thou i have been to a leo show and seen some dogs that i wouldn't go near.a couple of them dogs even though they are impressive in size,i don't like their unstable temperament and a curtain affix in the club i have seen a few examples of the breeders line,although they do well in the shows as a rule what i have seen of her line the dogs are breed more for the show ring than for temperament. a good breeder should try and breed the right dogs for size and nature.
but the good news their is only a few in the leo world 99% of the dogs i have seen may not be huge in size but all have a great nature and we are starting to get the size/weight back that has been lost which is great.
i have never bred but if i was to get a female i would want to know which line is the best for my boy and therefore the best possible pups in health,size and nature.
to me as an owner the nature of the dogs is more important than size as it would not be funny with a leo whom has a temperament issue.