Laying your own tracks is hard isnt it? Ive read my Glen Johnston, lined up landmarks, got my poles and got Morse to look while Im  double laying and baiting the track, but Im still not walking in a straight line, as he veers to the left before tracking along again. Ive checked the wind is behind ( as much as poss in Edinburgh), I hold the line taut to control the wiggles, keep being happy and encouraging... So does anyone live near West Edinburgh and want to join forces?

I'm moving up there next week :) .  But I'm afraid I don't know anything about tracking :(

Hi Jax, is it Edinburgh your coming to? thought you were off to Perth? Let me know when you settle and maybe we can meet up. No tracking I promise!

Sorry, i'm the opposite end of the country <g> but  i was surprised at how much the dog will "veer" ... esp. if there is a cross wind. Tohme will probably be on later as she knows much more than me :D

Lindsay
X

What do you do when he veers? do you stand still? continue?

Lorelei,
I've no experience of training tracking for working trials, so I'm not totally clear what your problem is. However, a gundog breed is going to naturally quarter the ground when scenting (run in a zig-zag pattern with the wind blowing at their cheek). Also being an air-scenting breed, Morse may be trying to pick up the scent at a place which seems a little illogical to the handler, at a distance away from where the scent lays on the ground. (Sorry if i'm 'teaching granny to suck eggs'!)

Its nice to have replies, and Im still at the grateful for all help stage ! When he goes off track I stand still with the line tight and try to wait it out. If he seems to have a more interesting scent - deer or rabbits - Ill encourage him by patting the grass at my feet so he comes back to see. Its double laid tracks one leg and baited with bits of very exciting food at intervals of about 5 paces just now. Windy days encourage the trailing and I started by tracking with the wind behind us on advice from someone who works Dobes as they tend to scent heads up like gundogs. Morse is one good tracker who gets his nose right down and trots along determinedly on tracks he finds, so it is me who needs to learn more about the laying.

YOu're certainly doing it right with the wind behind you, I suspect with time he will learn the best way is to use his nose nearer tothe ground although hopefully someone more experienced than me will be able to confirm that.

My BSD does air scent a little too, but it's because a lot of the tracking land i have used has been on heather, which is not exactly conducive to getting the dog's head down. As time has gone by she has learnt to get her nose closer to the ground although every now and then she will air scent. She finds articles though so i'm happy at the moment <g>

I see you are on grass which is a good thing, I suspect he/you  may just need practise :)

Lindsay
X

"as they tend to scent heads up like gundogs."

Really

Well as someone who works gundogs in Working Trials in ticket I think I can say with some authority that gundogs of ANY type do NOT track with their heads up!  In fact good tracking dogs of ANY breed do not SUCCESSFULLY track consistently with their heads up!

It sounds to me as though you have moved to fast and I would be tempted to single lay the track with food in each foot print to get the dog into the habit of having his nose down and moving from footprint to footprint before extending the distance between the food.  Be very very sure that you have indeed laid a straight leg, by using two tracking poles 10 paces apart than walk in a curve to your start position and when these poles are lined up stomp your way up the track leaving bits of tripe or sausage in each footprint.

HTH

I was referring to David Harveys description of working pointers and setters who do quarter heads up to use wind scent when working in their breed vocation if you like - my terminology was thus imprecise, and I stand corrected but undaunted ! Tracking is not field work, write it out a hundred times :D Thanks for the tip about food in footprints and I will try this later today. Checking the poles would be sensible too as walking a straight line is much harder than it looks even lining up 2 static landmarks

I find this interesting, as part of my gundog training involves encouraging the dog to follow lines of scent before they find the retrieve. (I hesitate to use the word "train" as most dogs know a thousand times more than me about scent!) I'm therefore genuinely interested in any potential tricks that can be picked up from other disciplines.

Doesn't working with the wind behind you encourage the dog to turn around and work back towards you? (or am I just being fixated about how gundog approach field work?)

Whilst I accept Tohme's point about succesful tracking dogs, I would have thought that the pointers natural inclination to hunt FOR scent on the air, rather than the ground would require a different approach to a breed like a labrador who (usually) tend to naturally ground scent.

In working trials, do you get an indictation of exactly where the scent trail starts from? Or is the dog expected to find the start of the line for itself?

Hi Havoc

As you rightly say we do not "train" dogs to track, they do that very well already all by themselves :D  What we do do is ask the dog to track in the manner we want which may not necessarily be their preferrred option :D  In WT we are looking for a dog that will track for 1/2 mile with no casts on straight legs or corners and that finds 3 very small articles. 

When beginning to train tracking often people will start with the wind blowing towards the dog so that the scent of the article is encouraging to him however this is soon changed to the wind behind you so that the dog HAS to put his head down as don't want to encourage air scenting at all in tracking; otherwise they may lift their head and say "aha, the article is over there" which is great in a square etc but we want the dog to follow all the track and not take a short cut :D

In the square exercise the dog is required to retrieve 4 articles in 5 minutes from a 24 square yard area.  As the articles are placed not thrown many of us train our dogs to track to articles as well as air scent; as the articles can't be very far from your footsteps unless you have 9ft arms :D

In WT you always start from a pole; but that is the only indication of the track apart from UD where another pole is put out not more than 30 yards from the start pole to indicate you are still on the right leg.

As far as I know there has never been an English Pointer worked in WT however there is "a" lady who works Gordon Setters. 

Labradors make up the biggest group of gundogs followed by Weimaraners; although there are only around 12 or so Weims competing regularly in WT and only 3 in "ticket".

Morse may be the first then :) If we get to start in a competition I shall be over the moon! Who works Gordons in WT? Ive reread the Tracking Dog and found there is little to worry about as Morse is not veering 6 feet or more and I suspect there is such a lot of scent about he can pick it up on the fringes. The solution is laid out in the book - age the tracks, keep a tight line and keep quiet until the end of the track. :)  Putting food in my footsteps is helping a huge amount and I will bear in mind NO RUSHING.

The searching thing is interesting. Im still at hiding quite big things around the house and garden - my garden is the exact size of a search square. Or chucking toys into scrub - lost a couple too. Its encouraging to see Morse bounding off to find things and bring em back as I was worried about him ever retrieving when we first observed a trial. He dosent get to see where Im placing things at home but Ive gone back to letting him see them thrown outside. How old are your dogs Tohme, and do you do ticket with your rescue dog with ADD ( canine version) ?

Barbara Riste works Gordons.

My bitch is 4, she qualified and won UD Open at her first trial at 19 months old and qualified for ticket in 11 months.

Unfortunately I had to have my rescue dog PTS as he had problems that even dietary therapy, homeopathy and behavioural modification could not cure. 

Im very sorry to hear your rescue was beyond help. Impressive results with your bitch. I asked as most of the dogs I know competing are 4 -6. Will watch out for Barbara Riste and her Gordons. :)

Another method some use is to put an old pair of shoes in a bag of tripe or stinking cheese and leave them overnight or for a day or two then pop them on at the start of laying your track.  This can be used on its own or as a progression from the treats in every footprint method.  If you don't have a naturally greedy dog then don't feed at all before you do your tracking training so he's hungry and will work that little bit harder to find the food.
You can also try dripping a tasty gravy (not too much) in some of the footprints behind you using treats at intervals as well so there is always something tasty for him to follow at first without actually finding a treat every time.  All helps to keep him keen :)
Lara x

Havoc is 100% right Tohme. Of the retriever breeds Labradors are the ONLY ground scenter. All the others are air scenters. If you watch retrievers where you see a lot working, at gundog training or events, the difference in the way Labradors work is most marked.

Regards, John

I am not disagreeing with what they DO in another sphere or as a natural bent, just about how they work whilst tracking!  Air scenting dogs will need to ground scent if they are to become successful tracking dogs in this particular discipline.  I

<<Air scenting dogs will need to ground scent if they are to become successful tracking dogs in this particular discipline>>

Have it your way Tohme but being an air scenter does not stop the Labrador doing the job it was bred for. Tracking a runner over three or four fields if need be, and with many crossing scent trails of similar animals! Just about the toughest tracking situation imaginable.

I am confused :D 

In your first post you wrote:

"Labradors are the ONLY ground scenter. All the others are air scenters. If you watch retrievers where you see a lot working, at gundog training or events, the difference in the way Labradors work is most marked."

In your second post you wrote:

"Have it your way Tohme but being an air scenter does not stop the Labrador doing the job it was bred for. Tracking a runner over three or four fields if need be, and with many crossing scent trails of similar animals! Just about the toughest tracking situation imaginable."

So what is a labrador, an air scenter or a ground scenter or both?

I am discussing how dogs are required to work in Working Trials, the way that the dog is expected to work is COMPLETELY different to that of a dog in Field Trials or in the shooting field.

If it did not keep its nose glued to the ground it would never qualify a 3 hour old track, with up to 25+ legs, over any terrain, over all different cross tracks of animals, deer etc and find  3 minute articles, sometimes no bigger than a match!  It would make so many casts that it would end up with fewer marks than it started with.

Perfection in Working Trials is negotiating the track on railway lines with no deviation at all.  Labs, other gundogs, Bloodhounds if fact almost any breed is capable of tracking scent over 24 hours old on all sorts of terrain; however just as a retrieve in on the shooting field differs from the retrieve on the obedience field, so does tracking differ between WT and gundog work.

Spot the deliberate mistake! Yes, Labradors are ground scenters, the rest are air scenters.

I bow to your obviously greater knowlege of gundogs and following a scentTohme.

sigh, I do not have a greater knowledge than you of gundogs and following a scent John, nor have I ever claimed to have. What I DO have is a greater knowledge about gundogs and Working Trials! :D 

Following a scent is following a scent. But as you do not need my input on the subject I will leave it to you to answer Lorelei.

Following a scent is following a scent, hmmm not for competition it is not. 

If I put your dog and my dog on a WT track, your dog may well follow it and get to the end of it, but NOT in the style required for WT! :D

This is what we are talking about, not whether or not a dog can/will follow a scent, or if it ground or air scents but is it doing it in the style required for the purpose and success in the chosen discipline. 

Ergo retrieving a bird is retrieving a bird.  So if a dog retrieves a bird in the shooting field but mangles its ribcage etc so badly it is of no use to anyone will it get the same marks as the one that brings it tenderly to hand?  I don't think so...............  The analogy is the same.

You are not going to tell me that a hard mouth is acceptable in a working trial! It is not even allowed in obedience!

Isn't it?

Depends on how you define a hard mouth.  For the lower stakes in obedience and in WT CD/UD/WD the dog merely has to retrieve a dumbell so whether or not it has a hard mouth is immaterial.

For the search square the dog generally has the articles in its front teeth as the articles are very small, and if you trained the dog to hold them at the back of the mouth it would probably swallow them.  So it could be holding the articles extremely tightly.

But whether or not it is true is irrelevant to the core discussion which centred around the style of tracking desired in WT which is very different to that of gundog work.  This is not a matter of opinion but fact; you could check this out for yourself if you went and watched one. :D

Just the addition of a harness and line will affect the way the dog works.

It is not unusual for a gundog to have to retrieve a bird from a confined space when the bird has fallen or run into heavy cover. Often it can only grip with the front teeth. Sometimes when a bird has got caught up th dog has to pull hard to free it. Of course a working gundog sometimes has to hold firmly but holding firmly does not equate to hard mouth.