Just wondered if anyone here agrees with Patricia Hewitt's (Government Trade Secretary) comments the other day that the decision to have children is a national duty.  She reckons that having a child is not a private choice because our ageing population needs a young workforce to support it.

Whilst I can understand the theory behind what she says, I really don't think anyone should dictate to people about something as personal as reproduction ;)

Any views ?!

Labour mp

'nuff said :D :D :D

Can't hunt, don't smoke, take more exercise, stop drinking, have more children - Why? So there will be a whole generation of genetically modified, non NHS using, skinny, boring little-labourites and we will never have a proper government again!

Exactly my point :D Nanny state roolz UK

Whoopy doo :rolleyes: :D

So you think the children of the Thatcher years  will give a 'proper' government do you?..........I don't know why you are on such a downer with  labour in power, you have children and schools have never been so well off since they took over, if you don't care for your children then what chance does the future hold?  Labour has put more money into schools than the Tories ever did.

But with what result ? There is no way that standards have improved. Results may be 'better' but how ? - by allowing students to take dictionaries into exams, by allowing A level students to resit exams several times and then 'choose' which mark they prefer, by allowing A level students to drop subjects that they aren't good at after a year, by allowing coursework to be 'marked' by teachers and then returned to the student to be revised before submitting to the examiners ??

Daisy

What are you talking about? My children go to a village school but here are still 27 in my sons class of 5 year olds. They are always campaigning for extra cash. I am having to pay for them both to go private when they get to secondary schol because our local secondary came 17th in the tables and has a high degree of teenage pregnancies and layabout children I don't want mine to get involved with. Thats why I am on a downer about this useless, stealth taxing, driver-hating, restrictive, NHS ruining, hunt-banning excuse for a government.

Stealth tax Kings :( Hubby got a 5k salary increase this year...he only actually sees £120 per month of it

Thats all well & good, BUT, how about women that cannot have children?  Or men for that matter? I suppose we should all rush off to the nearest fertility clinic and send the bill to her.

bloody hell! im not having any!!! not unless anyone can guarenntee they will come out as puppies!!!

Wasn't that one of the Romanian laws under the Ceaucesku (sp) regime? Each married woman had to have 5 children, and was subjected to random medical examinations until they had produced their quota.

how can anybody make people do that? i havent a maternal bone in my body!!!!!,

plus isnt the world overpopulated?

...this is a cry that comes up every 40 or so years..... I've done my bit towards over-population/supporting the elderly nation etc etc etc

Margot

LOL, Margot :D I've done my bit too (a bit less than your bit tho' :D ). I have the outmost respect for people who choose not to have children. Although they often don't know what they are missing - (your own children are infinitely better than someone else's :D ) - it is better than having children just because it was expected of you :)

Daisy

err  i thought we supported we supported ourselves in our old age......by working all our lifes & paying more & more tax!
dont really think labour need to bother thinking up any future policies though!!! what with the war/hunting/aslysum seekers & now that poor bloke waiting to be murdered in iraq

No michelle...WE are working to support the old age pensioners of the moment...but because now so many people have their own pensions, there will be no money for state pensions in the future ;)

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that :) Today's pensioners are being supported by us - we will be supported by our children (or our nephews and nieces etc). The government doesn't have a big pot that it saves all our pension contributions (NI) in :( It just spends it and hopes that it will be able to afford our pensions when it gets there :( If it can't afford them, then we won't get them - plain and simple :( :( Hence why I will be one of the first women - having paid my NI since I was 18 - that won't get a State pension until I'm 65 :(

Daisy

id rather work till i died than have kids!!!!

Lets not forget all of you are not only paying pensions for the earderly, you are also paying for 16+ students who are getting £30 a week...HOWEVER before you complain about paying for this, I'm not getting a penny of it because I can't claim it so I'm with most of you on Why should you!

I think a bigger worry is the fact that there are far too many adults who shouldn't be allowed or don't deserve to have children, but for a Minister to say that would be far too brave!

Sorry couldn't help myself, going now.

Problem is people are living longer, thus needing more support.  But I did read the other day that more women are having larger families again afte a slump in the 70' , 80's and early 90's.  I'm doing my bit, halfway there to no.3, maybe when they come to count those with more than one can loan them out? 

How about the women that have children, and have children and have children, because it means they dont have to work, and get loads of benefits!!!!!! One of those children HAVE to have Senco needs, so they get even more!!!!!( and no, not bagging leghitimate senco children, just the people that are able to play the system!!!!!)
Oh I wish I knew how to play the system like they do!!!!!!!!!
I know (and think Melody might twig who this is) Who has 5 children. 2 grown up qith children of thier own, and 3 under the age of 9. About 6 years ago, his wife was dying of cancer. And he was so pleased as he got £400/ week to look after her!!!!!!!!! She died not long after he stood their bragging to me how much he was getting.
He walks with a stick. Well, he does about 3 times a year when he knows someone is watching him!!!!! The last time was a few days ago when my mum rushed in saying social must be around as he is doubled over and walking with a stick., 2 days later I saw him striding out, perfectly straight!!!!!!!!! LOL
Should these people really be incouraged to have children?????
2 is enough for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lea :)

Don't Polititians spout a load of tosh :)

Gone have the days of households with large families and lets all admit who could seriously afford a house to home a two parent ten child household. Only those on benefits or who have won the lottery I would assume !

Don't they realise that the world is forever adapting with time and things move on ! There are so many more women that have to work now and so really struggle to pay for childcare. I am lucky that we earn enough to do it but there are far more many people that are really struggling and making big sacrifices, I think they are very brave to do it considering they have no choice really but to work.

This 'National duty' statement, so where is this written down and where have we signed up for it ?

Lucy
xx

ps I do not say that anybody on benefits whilst having children is wrong by the way but I do pay lots of tax and never seem to gain any benefit for doing it ?

As a full time housewife and mum, I have to say I have never, EVER felt so undervalued as I do under the present government.

Not long ago, one MP actually said that children were better off being cared for by professionals rather than their own mothers !

Which MP was that and what did they say ? I would be v interested :)

Just interested why now do you feel undervalued now compared before the Lab Mob ! :)

Lucy
xx

It was front page of the Daily Telegraph ages ago now ..several months. It was disgusting :(

Mel it would be cool if you could find it as any ammo :)#

Lucy

As in Lab Bllurrrr, Conserv :)

Fulltime housewife and mum is the most time-consuming job in the world (if you want to get it right), and the least valued by society. It makes me mad.

JG s the most time-consuming job in the world (if you want to get it right), and the least valued by society. It makes me mad

We can still bring our babies up if we put them in childcare  and work ?

Why would you want to pay someone else to bring your children up ? I have  just come back from staying with a friend who is a child-minder. She gives the children a wonderful day and the children that she looks after are very fortunate - but why would anyone want someone else to do that once in a lifetime job for them ?? One child even came to her when his mother took a day off work because the mother thought that he would miss seeing her :(

Daisy

Why would you want to pay someone else to bring your children up ?

Because, Daisy, some of us have to support our children, pay for housing, and feed the dogs. I am divorced and I have lived with my new partner for 3 years - we run our finances separately so who exactly is going to provide for us if I don't go to work? I can't claim any benefits because I live with Jon, and bearing in mind we could always split up it would be naive of me not to ensure that my childrens future is secure.

Of course I'd like to stay at home with them but 1. its too much like hard work and 2. I need to work to support my responsibilities. I don't need pointed judgemental comments from those who might not have experienced what I have.

Personally I could never afford a childminder. I'm not qualified enough to get a job that paid me enough salary to pay childminder's fees and still leave me enough money to compensate for being away from child and home.

Yes of course, Lucy. I don't condemn mothers who go out to work. But there are some people (mothers included) who sneer at women who choose (whether or not they can afford to) to raise their own children. Surely 'Women's Liberation' is about freedom of choice?

Does it not occur to folk that some women who have to work get extremely defensive when being questioned about it - hence fiercely justifying their choice -  because actually there may be nothing more they would like than to be at home with their kids? There's not enough understanding nor tolerance around this subject.

It's just the same for women who stay at home - they're made to feel inferior. When I was a fulltime mum, I actually heard other women say "Oh, you're only a housewife." How demeaning is that? :( If women are so divided amongst themselves, how on earth can Society as a whole ever change?

Indeed - but the comment that started this off was the comment about wanting to pay someone else to bring your child up - sometimes, its not a choice.

As I said - it works both ways.

Now, if there was a government in power that actually covered a woman's childrearing costs (tax breaks etc) so that there was no financial need for her to go out to work ... How much does a fulltime childminder cost? Pay that sum to one of the parents, and there would be a lot less unemployment.
:)

And anyway - its not paying someone to bring your child up - at the moment I pay my mum £800 a month to pick the kids up and have them until half five from school and dog sit because I am in London most days at the moment!

As I said - I'm not condemning anyone for their choices.
:)

Chloe - I apologise if my comment was too general :( I should have added that it can be the only way due to changed circumstances. You are lucky to have family to help out - it's not an option for a lot of people, me included.

To clarify my view (and I am entitled to it :) ) - I cannot see the point when people choose to have children and then work full-time putting them into childcare for long days. Why have the children ? Sometimes in life you can't have everything and, in my opinion, young children need their mothers - no-one else. Fine, when they are older - maybe 9+ they can cope with parents not being around too much. I think that the programme on BBC2 recently (Who Rules The Roost ?) shows exactly what stresses trying to 'do it all' can bring.

When I gave up work to have children it was done with the full knowledge that our income was going to be halved - but we had taken that into consideration when we married. The problem now is that people have set themselves such high standards of living that women can't afford to give up work. Personally, I would prefer to raise my own children and have a lower standard of living and a better quality of life.

Again I am sorry if I offended you

Daisy

Blimey Chloe!! £800 a month! that equates as £40 a day for 2.5-3hrs work. Think you are over paying your Mum slightly!!!

No, she works all day for me. I pay my mum that to help her out - she and my dad have my 99 year old aunt living with them, so I help them out as much as I can.

Yep - me too My children are all my own work (and a bit of hubby's too ;) ) and I am very proud of them :) I don't regret one bit any sacrifices I have made to bring them up - yet women now are forced to feel that they are somehow lesser beings if they stay at home :(

Daisy

i'm one of the few stay at home mum's my eldest is almost 13.
when you say you are a full time mum and don't have any type of job,i get the feeling your looked down on by some.as if to say the norm is to have kids and still work.don't get me wrong my sister has 2 girls and works full time but it is because she has too more than wants to.
i don't work at all other than being a mum to 2 and the chores etc but i work just as hard as any other mother does with their children,i'm in a position that i couldn't work due to hubby job and shift pattern if i did most of it would go on child care so i would sooner take care of the kids for the amount of cash that i would get.
as for the orignal question i think it should be upto each women if they choose to have children in their lifes,but i also know some that have child after child for the benefits they can claim when they have no means of supporting the ones they already have...this gets me going.
i live in my own house with 2 children and 1 wage coming in but we don't get any kind of help yet they get it handed it all on a plate.
it makes you think your mad when you pay your own way,married and support your own kids.

I recon must do my duty my youngest is 21 so will have another LOL   :) :) hubby just gone on pension so family allowance will come in handy :)

Lea, what are senco needs?

Jacky jat, Sorry SEN=Special educational needs. Senco is SEN coordinator, sorry for the mistake :)
Lea :)

Hi,

Well I have 4 children one on the way ,i've chosen to work from home so run my own business with partner and he also runs seperate business our hours work completely around the children and we take them everywhere with us the children are only ever looked after by grandparents and this is not too often .We fully support our children although for the 1st time youngest goes to daycare 3 morning a week more for socialising and miss him terribly when he goes even though he loves it.We go to bed late get up early mornings to get work done so we can enjoy maximum time with children.I also have one child with special needs and we certainly dont get loads of money to help her for number years I paid for a private tutor to give her the extra help required paid for ourselves.
We cut down on other things which many people /parents would not give up like going out as a couple ,we dont smoke or drink I dont drive .However we lead very busy full active lives with the children dont miss out on anything with them both being self employed we dont get any pay rises.
Our eledest daughter was very ill in hospital few nights ago both were at her bedside neither of us working for that time so we could be with her and now we have make the hours up to get paid.We would'nt have it anyother way.
We also show the dogs and the children all have their various activites .
I enjoy having a large family  and it doesnt necessarily mean you need lots of money to have and support a large family paid for yourselves depends what you can do without and what you cant .I also cook and bake alot I personally find it cheaper and healthier but some of my friends with only 2 children their choice ,live off convienience food spend as much on food as we do for 6 run 2 cars about everywhere cars,smoke /drink luxury family holidays then whinge husband didnt get promised pay rise etc.

Morale you dont need to be bank of England to have large family if what want you want, you can support large family yourselves without benefits hard work yes.

Briony:-)

Briony :-)

<<<<<<<<<<<<I also have one child with special needs and we certainly dont get loads of money to help her for number years I paid for a private tutor to give her the extra help required paid for ourselves.>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry Briony, I wasnt getting at the people who have sen children get the help they need, and use the money to put towards helping the child. Its the ones that dont, and some how (I dont know how) manage to get more money than most people can get in one of the best paid jobs!!!!!!!!
I work 3 days a week, my 2 children are in before and after school care those 3 days. I pay £20/ week to a tutor to get my son up to his level in maths(when we started with the tutor 1 year ago he was 2 years behind) In that year he has now only 1 year behind, so he has caught up 2 years work in a year!!!!!!!
There is no way I could afford to do that if I lived on income support!!
In a way I would love to stay at home with my children. But after I split from my husband, I stayed at home for 3 months on my own(I was a housewife before that), 3 months looking at the same 4 walls, with noone coming home at night to talk to was horrible. I was so stressed. I started work to help my dad out, and am alot happier. So are my children :) 
I would love to stay at home with my children, but could only ever do it if I had a partner.
Hope that makes sense.
Lea :)