i have a question for all the user's and would like your views.
my leo is now 18 months old and will recall and keep up and watch us when out and off the lead, the problem is he will go and try and say hello to any dog that he comes across and then try and play with them. which is fine with me but i get the feeling that he will carry on when the other dog has had enough and walked away he would probably follow to carry on playing. also there are a few nasty dogs that go on the fields near us which have given off warning signs or made it clear that they don't want to play but he would go to them as well. so he would more than likely be bitten trying to make friends. he has met a couple of dogs on the lead which have snapped at him he flinches but then sticks his nose in again so he doesn't get the message.we let him off when no dogs are around and with my dads boxer which he loved the rest of the time he is on a 25ft lunge line so he can wonder around but we can move him on when needed.
plus people on the park seem to feel more comfy with a big dog on some kind of a lead and allthough some owners see him for what he is a big pup (which shows in his behaviour with other dogs) and happy for the dogs to say hello others don't and and walk in a different direction to avoid us.
we have tried the walking away from him and it worked we also ran down the field and he gave chase, would this work if he was enjoying playing so much with another dog?
i am trying to do whats best for him but also protect him from the nasty dogs because he would get hurt and think it was part of the game (in turn could think it is ok to do it to others) is it just give him longer to understand the body language of othersand mature mentally?
i am trying to teach him to wait on command so he stops still untill i have caught upto him which works most of the time but i don't know if it would with others close off the lead.
i am hoping that i can get him to wait then teach him that heel means come to me like on walks so i can control the dogs he goes to,then we can avoid the bad ones.
how would you feel as owners if a leo came over to say hello to your when out????

any advice or help

Haven't really got an advice but my worries are the same as yours with my Border collie, i have only recently within the past 5-6 months allowed him off lead, i'am so proud of him his recall is fantastic but because of the early hours i walk him and then lunch time, late at night (12.30am) . we never get to meet other dogs (he meets other dogs at doggie classes so he is well socailised). But my worry is the same when we do meet a dog he will play for hours, the trouble is he won't come back when he is enjoying himself so much, so far if we have come across other dog walkers the dogs have been fine, i just know if another dog is nasty and snaps at Boot's he will do the same back, protecting himself, Any suggestions on that?

As in your question, If a Leo came to say Hello to us and our dogs i would be happy for him to play with ours, lovely dogs, plus it would be nice to see one in our area only place i see them is at shows.

Jenna

Hi Jenna,

It is probable that because of your times of walking him Boot's doesn't have many distractions on recall so appears more reliable than he actually is - but you're obviously aware of that so you've got a great understanding of him already.

Meeting other dogs at classes is certainly essential socialising but I always think youngsters are more excited by the random, miles off on the horizon dogs on a walk than they are by dozens lying or training two feet away from them in a hall -  I know mine always are :D

Can you try to get him out for at least some of his walks during a busier doggy period in your local exercise area?  Hopefully if he sees more dogs on his regular outings he'll eventually not feel the need to meet and greet them all ;-)   Also, as I replied to Marie, could you try (even if only at weekends) to meet up with a couple of local dog owners whos dogs are safe with him to get a bit over excited with?

Of all the dogs I've ever owned the only one that was never *fully* reliable on recall was one who was much later than my others on getting off lead exercise.  This wasn't my preferred choice (at the time as I could see she was becoming over anxious to run off into the distance to meet any dog she saw) but unfortunately we went through a period in our local dog walks where several new owners of dubious dogs made it unsafe to let small or young dogs off to play - even when well trained :-(

No doubt others will be along soon with lots of practical tips from their own experiences but I've found these measures worked exceptionally well for my dogs.

Best wishes, Teri :-)           

Hi Jenna.....I have exactly the same problem as you.    My eighteen month old wants to play with every dog she sees.    I haven't yet let her run free and I would so love to.    There are some dogs where I walk that I know would attack her.....they have attacked other dogs....and they are strong animals and I am sure if she was off the lead they would kill her.     If we walk past them they show their teeth (these dogs are bitches like mine) apparently they are fine with dogs...so their owners say!   One is a Staffie (and I like Staffies...this one is friendly with me...it just doesn't like my dog and I don't think she would have a chance if it attacked her)  for one thing she woulnd't be looking for a fight so wouldn't know what hit her, even when it growls, she still wants to go up and play with it.    My friend has the same problem, we try to walk at different times to avoid them.   I know that I am over protective but I don't know what else to do except wait until she is a little older and doesn't take so much interest in other dogs.    My eight year old is always off the lead but she will stop and let me put her lead on when necessary.      I never pull her away from other dogs if I know that they are o.k. she always goes up to them and has a play ( if they will allow it).   Even if I take them to the beach I am afraid that she will run of and be attacked she is so playfull and not every dog wants to play!!

The trouble is, Jackie M, that the longer you leave it, the greater her fascination with her own species will become. It's familiarity with something that causes loss of interest. Restriction causes frustration I'm afraid. Can you not let her off the lead in a safe place with these dogs who you know are friendly?

Hi Jeangenie.    I'm sure that you are right....I shall have to let her off the lead when we go to the beach and hope for the best.   We went walking this morning and met with the other dog and all hell broke loose.   It is mainly my friends dog we have the problem with, she clashed with this other dog when they were pups and neither of them have forgotten it, they must go mental when they when they see  one another.

Hi Marie,

Firstly, congratulations as you are obviously trying to be as responsible as possible ;-) -  he's still very much a pup at heart so unlikely to have perfect recall.  Your use of the lunge when others are around is to be commended and dogs of his age and size do need to get some freedom for their mental as well as physical development and wellbeing.  Can you try and get him Sooooooo interested in a special outdoor only toy that you would be able (eventually) to use that as a distraction when other dogs are around?  If not a toy, is he very food orientated so an extra special meat or cheese treat (unique to his walks) could act as a lure?

>we have tried the walking away from him and it worked we also ran down the field and he gave chase, would this work if he was enjoying playing so much with another dog?<

Unfortunately you won't know the answer to that until you try it out ;-)  BUT perhaps you could pre-arrange a meeting with a friend's dog (in a secluded, confined area and when you both have plenty of time :D) and test the water.

> am trying to do whats best for him but also protect him from the nasty dogs because he would get hurt and think it was part of the game (in turn could think it is ok to do it to others) is it just give him longer to understand the body language of othersand mature mentally?<

Yep, he will eventually get a better idea of what the other dog's body laguage is telling him and you're right to control the situation because you don't want him to "get a better idea" because he's had his ear torn! You are obviously devoted to this lovable big guy and he sounds adorable :-)

Re:-
>how would you feel as owners if a leo came over to say hello to your when out????<

I wouldn't have a problem with any dog approaching based on it's size - I go by their body language whether they are teeny weenies or the size of a pony :D - luckily my own are very friendly and even annoying dogs pestering them when they are not in the mood are tolerated for some time before getting the "cold shoulder" ;-)

I can understand why some people who don't have much contact with large and/or powerfully built breeds may feel intimated by them - sadly not everyone realises that puppies come in all shapes and sizes :-(   Is there any chance that if you have goten to know owners with friendly dogs walking in the same area regularly? When taking my pups out without my adults I make a point of finding out the set times anyone with a sensible,  friendly dog walks it.   I've pre-arranged "appointments" with dogs (ranging in size from a Yorkie to a very large GSD) for my puppy walks.  If you can do something similar your puppy can have controlled exercise with sociable dogs who will hopefully fullfil his need to interact but may also tell him off but not in a bad way.  And, if he's playing happily off lead with a small group of dogs he regularly has fun with (and who are trained by their owners to come back) it will also help you to train your boy to return mid-play.

Sorry this is so long winded - one of those nights when I know exactly what I'm trying to say but can't work out how easily to put it :D

HTH, Good luck and keep us posted.   Teri

Hi Marie, Kizzy won't do a distracted recall but will leave the other dog to give chase to me if I run the other way, and that's what I have been doing so far. My main corcern is her getting bitten, she seems to have less idea of body langage then normal. I have alway, been told that if the subordernut dog lay's down that the other one will not attack, is this alway's the case. Viv

Doubt it very much (IMO)  I meet dog's who are very bad at reading other dogs body language - and I have also met the genuine nasty dog on walks who I believe would still have a pop regardless of the submission shown by the weaker dog!  I have an Afghan Hound who from a very young age was very good at reading body language and was in actual fact used as a 'stooge' in other classes, and is still called upon at 13 months old.  Anyway I met someone on a walk with a GSD who is also an obedience champion, both our dogs were on a lead and we were chatting - the GSD bitch's tail went stiff and she snapped at Lana's face, that was her way of saying "back off" to Lana - as we believe she was intimidated by a big black dog who's eyes she couldn't see (her hair is very long) and Lana couldn't see such a subtle message, so now I put her hair in bunches when we go for a walk :D  As for recalls, having a sight hound I can relate to anyone having problems with these :rolleyes:  Lana used to be good as a pup, then her 'Kevin' stage kicked in, where she went back to a long line.  Experience has shown me what I can and cant get away with!  If I am in sight she knows she can play, play, play, however if I hide or run away she will follow 9 times out of 10.  If she comes back from a play when I call her, her reward is to be allowed to go back and play - very effective!!  She is also clicker trained and every week we attend a socialising/group walk training class in a public park wher our dogs are let off with compatible dogs and where we get to practice recalls - one thing I have learnt from these is that you have to give your dog the best possible chance to respond ie: dont call during mid play (you generally dont win!) call when there is a break in play, to increase your chances - and dont allow yourself to get into a situation that you know your dog cant cope with - In my case its a big open field with lots of dog's in the middle playing chase - I wouldn't stand a chance of an effective recall so I dont put Lana in that situation!  I know Lana is reliable in the woods as she always keeps an eye on us due to constant direction change, so I let her off - I know she will want to chase a terrier type dog (FUN!!!) so if one approaches she goes on lead until I have cleared with the owner that his/her dog is a strong characther who enjoys a game :D  I know she wont rush in with anything of equal size or bigger - or if there is more than one!!!  So I'll leave her off.  I know she cant resist chasing bikes - But we are working on this :D  I think the thing to remember initially is what I have already mentioned about giving yourself a chance to 'win' and not putting the dog in a situation where you know you probably wont win!
I recommend the use of a clicker (cant speak highly enough of the clicker training technique :)) and I seriously recommend the use of a special toy and some seriously tasty treats (liver, liver cake etc) reserved for extra special training ;)  I make a toy 'special' by not allowing access to it all the time - it is put away and I take it out only when I want too (in our case its a dracula that lana adores) I get her really wound up about it and then put it away, this makes her want it even more - and if you can get your dog really into a particular toy it can help make you more interesting when training recalls in the park, as you can use it as a short play reward then pop it in your pocket!  Phew!  This is a long one - sorry!  You can tell I've had lots of recall training :D
Sarah

thanks for the points, we have met a few and it has taken away the urge to  say hello to every dog he see's, i will have to find out the times to try and meet regularly with them for him to play. i have tried food as the prize in the past but he is to excited and not interested in it, he will take it but then drop it as soon as he has it. i have treid toys but will do the same he isn't the kind that will play with a toy forever  or carry it himself,so he is just getting praise when he recall's.most dogs are wary of him which i can understand why with his size,then they realise he just wants to be friends its the people who don't.i think it is also my size to some degree im only about 5 foot and not very big so it makes them think i can't control him.
i guess we will just have to carry on for now untill hes a bit older or keep nicking my dads boxer but she is old and can't do the same distance as tob any more its too much for her.we domt really get big dogs on our walks but if he met one he would act the same he will even kiss them if he gets to which i think puts the others at ease.

i have tried clicker but he is better with the whistle it makes him stop and look back for the command.

You dont use the clicker to recall - its the reward!!  Its the click/treat that tells the dog the action was correct when it has come back to you.  Also with treats and toy's it cant just be any 'old treat or any old toy - it has to be extra special...Ask yourself the question would my dog rather be off playing or sniffing or be with me - for most people it would be the former, but who can blame the dog for that :D  We have to make ourselves irresistable to our dog's :D  If you have recall prob's then you must be adaptable to try whatever you need to - It could save your dog's life one day!
Sarah :)

Hi Sarah, I love the image of Lana and her Dracula :D Princess Lana must be huge by now - Ill never forget her putting her paws on that leather suite to mark it as hers BTW so shes always Princess to me. Youre doing so well with her. :) Manic Morse is recovering from his backslide and is allowed his freedom again, but Im keeping him on the line in fields the now in case too much liberty blows his mind, and exploiting his hunting instincts for tracking. So if anyone wants to know how to tire out a gundog, take him/her tracking.

:D - Hi Lorelei - Everyone calls her princess Lana :D  Thanks very much for your comments :)  Her dracula even tells you it "wants to suck your blood"  Very funny.  Yes she is growing fast - looks a lot like a wookie :D - Have to send you an updated piccy some time!  Glad to hear Morse is recovering -  Speak to you soon
Sarah :)

rozzer
i have used clicker in the past and like you said he hears the click and recalls to get a treat as reward,but this didn't work the same with him when we are out so i use a whistle instead as he responses to the whistle when we are out.(he stops and looks for us to give the command)
he isn't that interested in food if he was i would use it for training but he is more the dog than the goodie,but he is improving with this now.i think it is because he is having his fix with dogs so it isn't such a big deal to him now.
i haven't tried liver so i might give that a go as a special food reward for walks.
he now recalls to the command come without any form of treat other than verbal praise but i always carry some goodies for him.even if i give other dogs a goodie with him around he isn't bothered he can take or leave them.
i think thats why i have some of the problems i have with him regarding other dogs etc because i can't use his tum against him so to speak.
i agree with you as owners to need to try different things to see which is the best for your own dog the more you know them the better it is as a team.
all the things that worked with our boxers don't on him so i am learning as i go to see what makes him tick.

Hi Marie :) - Just to be sure, he shouldn't respond to the click - The click is NOT to get his attention it is the reward once he comes back,  I'm very pro clicker and my hound was accustomed to it at 15 weeks old so she is rewarded by the click and treat once she has done something I like :)  I suggested it as a possible tool in your battle - but your dog has to be accustomed to and aware of the clicker prior to using it in training, I find it helps break down the communication barriers by saying 'you have just done something I like, have a treat' :D.  I also realised how spoilt my dog is :rolleyes:  As a result many toy's were boxed up and treats were harder to earn!  This helped (and still helps!) in training as she now has to work for and earn pretty much most things - I always ask for something before I let her off, even if its just eye contact - this is just my attempt to make me more important to her!  You sound as though you are certainly working on it and I appreciate its harder to train dog's who aren't necessarily food orientated, but there are steps we can take to make things more interesting (see above :D)  Hey, I sound as though I should have the most perfectly behaved dog....Not likely :D :D  But we are trying and seeing results!!!
Sarah :)

Marie, Morse used to be difficult to train as he had no obvious motivators. Food he took or left, he didnt know what toys were for, all he wanted to do was run and hunt/play with other dogs. The advice we got from a proper behaviourist was to use his daily food ration with a clicker. His days food was sorted into 50% in bowl and up to 50% kept in a bag with me.  We started off rewarding him for looking at me with a thrown piece of food and worked it up. Any food missed went in the outside bin. It is hard as you have to ensure the dog dosent bin rake but it got results sharply for us and we only did it about 3 weeks, then used free running as a reward - recall from play, food then release again to play. Now he waits for a go play command before going off.

Also have a look at the type of treats - we never find the commercial ones much good and use hot dogs, edam cheese or liver cake. The exception is that horrible dog food Frolic which Morse and his pals just go daft for. I also find you have to fix a dog on a toy by keeping it scarce, I spent lots of time kicking tennis balls on a string about while Morse wandered around before getting him excited by them. I also got ruthless about keeping him in boring places or on a line for part of his walks so he could only play with me. It does work.

the problem is he will go and try and say hello to any dog that he comes across and then try and play with them. which is fine with me

Is it fine with the other owners?

Bearing in mind that you are concerned when other dogs come rushing up to yours?

Karen Pryor quoted a colleague as saying that she believed that a recall was a 20 step procedure and that many people expect a "level 15" recall when they have only trained a "level 6" in other words most owners are lulled into a false sense of security because they have not deliberately trained the recall step by step with increasing levels of difficulty and distraction before asking for it when out!

Common sense really.

A dog needs to be conditioned so that it will recall on its own, away from dogs, away from people, away from prey, away from food and away from fights and this takes a lot of time and consistent and relentless training. 

If you find yourself in a Level 15 situation then put the dog back on the lead or don't take it off until you have trained for it.

I don't have a very good recall with Lab Emmy, she has just turned 2 and loves to play with other dogs.
I am lucky that I live near fields where she is safe off lead and meet the same dogs who are all friendly and tolerate Emmys antics.
I am VERY aware that recall is our weakest command and the one we must work on the most, but I also admit that I am useless at doing this as I let her off lead with no lunge line. (I have tried a lunge line and have ended up on my backside more times than I care to remember as Emmy is a very big strong lab and me a very weak wimp!)
I dread the day she may run up to a dog and get snapped at or into a fight. It is a real possibility as I don't have the 100% reliability that I (and nearly every dog owner in the country!) would love. Having said that, Emmy is learning a lot by herself. She doesn't run straight up to other dogs. She lays down and waits for the other dogs to come to her. If they are friendly she will have a play and as soon as I say "ok, lets go" she will follow me, no matter how much fun she is having. 12 months ago I would have been chasing after her trying to get her back on the lead, but I think it is true to say that the novelty is wearing off a bit, and she is listening to me more. Also, if we see dogs coming towards us, I can do a u turn and she will follow me, and not chase the approaching dog, I think she's learned this from me legging it off in the other direction on a number of occasions, and she doesn't like the thought of losing mum!
I love to meet other dogs on our walks as it gives Emmy a chance to run around and play. If other dogs run up to us I am fine with this, unless they are going in for the kill in which case I would be wondering why they were off the lead in the first place... If Emmy ever showed any kind of nastiness towards other dogs, I would NEVER let her off the lead.

Bearing in mind that you are concerned when other dogs come rushing up to yours?

im not concerned if other dogs come to him,i was on about the nasty one off the lead that will come to him not to play but fight.
tob will recall i am trying to make it more difficult and take the next step,which is for him to recall when playing with others.i want to be able to let him off and have the control over him to not go to a dog if needed to save him from himself,he will go over to any as he stands i don't want him to go to the wrong dog and get bitten.
i only walk him on a 25ft line so i can stop him from going to the wrong dog,he doesn't know how to fight and if i can i don't want him to learn it the hard way.
as he is he will greet and play with any dog and i would like him to stay that way.
some onwers see him for what he is a big pup and read his body language others just see a big dog.

I think we all need to be aware of our surroundings and be honest with ourselves about the level our dogs are at - where I walk is a busy park full of dog's off lead, on lead, some aggressive, shy, boisterous, fast, old, some joggers, bikes, hot air balloons, kites, children, horses and I am talking about everytime we go there!  It is also well fenced and away from roads which makes it ideal for training.  As right as Tohme is, it is far from easy to obtain this level of recall and even farther to try and obtain it without experiencing all the things I have mentioned above, and without every hour of most day's to train ( I know two obedience champion GSD's who thought nothing of chasing a deer one afternoon despite their owners calls to down/come!!) - however, I believe if your pup is well mannered and you can control the situation (long line etc) then IMO at least you are providing him with social situations and trying to put any issue's right, rather than just letting him rush up to anything without trying to correct or acknowledge his behaviour (not that I am suggesting this is you :).  Adaptibility and hard work should pay off in the end, for instance I have in the past cleared with the owners of other dogs if they would be happy for our dogs to play, but would not allow my hound to approach an old lady with an elderly yorkie shuffling along and minding their own business However I sometimes wish others would show me more respect - When it was quite hot a few weeks back my heavy coated, black afghan almost ran herself into the ground - As a result I put her back on her lead to control her exercise only to walk out of the woods to be confronted by a fat lab who decided to jump on Lana's head - owners found it all very amusing but I was p****d to say the least :(  You know what I'm saying ;)
Sarah

"As right as Tohme is, it is far from easy to obtain this level of recall and even farther to try and obtain it without experiencing all the things I have mentioned above, and without most minutes of most day's to train "

I work full-time, I make the time required to train for this level of obedience.

"I know two obedience champion GSD's who thought nothing of chasing a deer one afternoon despite their owners calls to down/come!!) "

There is a great deal of difference between "obedience" dogs and "obedient" dogs! :D  The two are not necessarily synonymous!

Tohme, I'm sure you make the time -  I certainly try to (and I dont have kids ), however - I have been trying to master the chase recall for oh about one year now :D  While it would be wonderful to achieve the level you speak of, I personally find it lots of hard work (which I'm sure isn't helped by the fact that I own a sprint hound :D) I'm sure I speak for many, many dog owners when I say my dog is not/would not be 100% in any situation thrown at them such as deer, rabbits, cats!!  I hope that one day I would be able to say my dog will down/return at the first call in any circumstance - but I certainly wouldn't be alone if I never achieve this level ;)  Thats not to say I will ever give up mind you!
Sarah

Keep at it Sarah :) Being aware of your limitations is the first step to avoiding trouble. Remember Morses child chasing? Im having good results with him now and he looks for permission before going to investigate things these days. It is hard work in that you need to be very aware of your surroundings and ruthless, but when your vigilant the chances of being caught out are slimmer. I  also work full time and have a large family to look after, but I find it easy to make time to train my dog. We have an Afghan breeder nearby a lovely lady who never lets hers off lead as she says they would run to Fife. Sounds like your already exceeding some peoples expectations of your breed.

Prevention is so much better than a cure.

With my pups I :

Let them off the lead from the first outing and work really hard at making myself the most interesting thing in that field. Constantly calling puppy back for a fuss.

Never let the pup CHOOSE to run off and play with another dog or person (however friendly they are & however well I know them). If you must allow your dog to play with other dogs only EVER allow it to do so after it has been brought under control and then given a 'release' instruction. Dogs really struggle with the concept of "sometimes", consistency if the key.

If I know the control is not in place yet, the pup goes back on the lead as soon as I see the distraction in the distance. I make it my business to spot these distractions before the pup does! As the pup grows it will come to realise that seeing off-lead dogs is likely to result in them being called in to heel.

This problem usually arises because owners only try and correct the issue AFTER they have allowed the fault to develop in the first place. The initial reaction always seems to be that it is nice for the little puppy to go and play with his friends!

Out of control and / or aggressive dogs that accost my dogs are likely to receive a less than welcoming response from me. In such circumstances my own dogs are firmly instructed to ignore the distraction.