This one is very 'tame' because it gets fed by a fox-loving neighbour :( At night, it will stand on the path and wait while hubby comes up the path with our two dogs - it only moves when he is a few feet away - it knows that they are on lead and can't chase it. It has killed another neighbour's pet owls and other neighbours pets etc :(

Daisy 

And of course unless this neighbour regularly puts worming tablets in the food she leaves out for the fox, it is defecating in hers, yours and other people's gardens, leaving toxocara or tapeworm for dogs or children to contract (for which doubtless dogs wil be blamed).

I so wish people wouldn't encourage them near houses.

HE feeds them just the other side of my hedge in the field. The foxes regularly leave their smelly mess in our garden - they sleep in our compost heap and steal the dogs' toys :( He does give them medication - he belongs to the Fox Society and I know that he treats their food for mange, so could worm them as well, I suppose. The down side is that my dogs used to find and eat the left over food (together with any medication) when they were walked the next morning - including whole turkey carcasses  :( :( After the turkey carcass incident, I blew my top and knocked him out of bed, telling what I thought about it - he came and removed what was left, trying to avoid several other annoyed dog owners :D Since then he has changed where he feeds them (although only yards from my garden) and my dogs seldom find any left overs, thank goodness

Daisy

Cheers, Tim :D

Teri

Where exactly?

I however think there is a warped side to the character of anyone who enjoys participating in fox hunting as a "sport

>>>
>>>

oooh...I have never been called "warped" before! :)

First time for everything Sam :p :p :p

I really wish that the general public could see the wider implications of this Bill, which is the 'Hunting with Dogs' Bill and NOT the *Fox hunting Bill*

It isn't about fox hunting alone

All of you who allow your dogs to walk off lead are going to be at risk of falling foul of this Bill.

Anyone who at present hunts with dogs, for example for rabbits on a farmers land, with his permission, is liable to prosecution

IF, whilst out on a walk with your dog, he or she catches and kills a rabbit you could be liable

THOUSANDS of dogs who were bred for hunting (not talking foxhounds here) will immediately be unable to carry out the job they were bred for

I do see the wider implications and hope it gets passed ASAP.  The 'general public' want hunting with dogs banned, and the sooner the better.

The General Public have no idea of the wider implications Timhere ..they just see the fox hunting issue and nothing else

Pity the poor hounds then 20,000 to be killed & yet they breed thousands every year so what happens to them when they get old ? What reward do the bitches get after being put in whelp & producing hounds that aren't good enough  or missing when mated ? What happens to the hounds that are not good hunters ? What happens if they need expensive surgery ?

They all get the same reward A bullet in the head & if they are lucky chucked into the rubbish

Some reward eh

& then the hounds that get killed on rail lines The horses that get killed whilst out hunting ?

I was taken to a "country day out" there were parades of packs of hounds As they passed me the smell was sickening & the hounds thin & unkemp

The only clean & good conditioned hounds were the bloodhounds & of course they hunt the worst animal on earth, the cause of more destruction of life than any other species on earth Yes folks they hunt Man

We have a number of foxes in the area, along with loads of rabbits, squirrels & other prey species Perhaps this is why the chickens are left alone.

The last pet rabbits killed in our willage just happened to die at the same time some of the young hounds went walkabout for five days from the hunt kennels just coincidence of course.

& the elderly lady who collapsed & had a heart attack after seeing her two old cats ripped apart in her garden happened at the same time, no not a fox three foxhounds-what did the hunt do put a five pound note through her door for each cat no apology, no compassion nothing which just goes to show what nice people the hunt are.

As for fishing The fish has the choice to take the bait or not they are no pursued for hours on end before being ripped apart-I cannot see the sense in angling & throwing the fish back in. If someone fishes for food(a staple in some third world countries)I could understand, but just to throw the fish back in I cannot understand at all

Shooting grouse etc also to be not understandable either Why not just rear the birds then kill them & eat them, why eat a bird filled with shot ?

Deer-most farmed deer is killed humanely not chased for hours before being dispatcjhed

I would like to know how can someone be patron of an organization that allegedly protects animals  & is anti hunting with dogs & also actively hunting both foxes & deer for "sport"-as HM Queen Elizabeth II does

As for me I don't eat animals, I don't wear animal skins, don't use products tested on animals  & the medication I take is not tested on animals either(Oops well it is it is tested on an animal-me & I have consented to being used)So please don't accuse me of double standards re eating meat etc

Hi Melody

You're absolutely right - most people will not know or read into this ban anything other than a stop being put to organised fox hunting.   As I said in my original post, >Like almost every new bill affecting animals this will be rushed in and very probably not fully thought through<

I stand by the argument that because fox hunting has been turned into a *hobby/sport* (albeit zillions of years ago) now, in the 21st century with increased awareness of animal cruelty, it is defined by countless people as cruel.  And, IMHO, as a *sport* only, it is!  If done by an official employee, working on behalf of the farming community etc., and without the grandiose pomp and ceremony attached to the hobby hunters it would be viewed as culling - which again can be an emotive subject but probably less inflamatory in this instance.

The wider implications re. pet dogs chasing wild life etc on their regular walks will go unnoticed until the first major prosecution - perhaps then the powers that be will reword the Bill - but probably not :-(

Teri

  

I'm being particularly dense tonight, but I can't understand why a particular activity becomes acceptable or not according to who performs it.

Example:  What about euthanasia of our pets, Jeangenie?  OK for the vet - don't suppose for a minute that we would think it OK for anyone able to don a white coat to "have a go"?  Nor we would think highly of anyone who fancied pulling up a seat to watch.

I don't see your point, Teri. The huntsmen and the hounds are the professionals at the job. The debate (or how the posts read to me) seems to be about how many people should accompany them while they do it. I certainly accompany my vet when he puts my animals to sleep - he's the professional.

I wish I knew what pomp and ceremony you are talking about.

All the hunts I have been on or followed have the hunt servants in red, so that they are recognisable by the rest of the hunt.

One of the reasons for other riders being encouraged to ride to hounds is to head off the fox or to stand at covert side to stop the fox breaking away from the line the hounds are following.

The majority if not all, apart from the hunt servants, are in black or tweed weatherproof, waterproof jackets for protection from the elements.

If you are talking about the meets, they are exactly what the words says, a meeting place adjacent to the area to be hunted.  Usually in the vicintiy of a local pub, there is nothing better than a tot of whisky or brandy to keep the insides warm on a bitter cold frosty winters day.

So where in all of that is the pomp and ceremony.

I literally just heard on the TV News that a young boy has been shot dead in Devon. He was with a party that were out shooting foxes and his identity was mistaken. :(

What hounds would do that?

Unfortunatly the second this year JG. The minute you shoot at animals on the ground the risks esculate.

Regards, John

I'm a member of the general public - but I don't want it banned !!! And - I've never been hunting and don't belong to any pro-hunting group etc Just weighed up the various arguments and come down against it being banned.

Daisy

Tim, please explain to everyone here what the real implications of this ban are for all dog owners. You seem to be well versed in such matters so please explain in full and preferably without emotive speak.

Well I for one will be standing outside the Houses of Parliament on Wednesday to register my disapprovalalong with thousands of other likeminded country folk.

I think that the fox is a beautiful animal but beautiful or not, it needs to be controlled, and in my opinion Hunting is the least cruel way to do this.

Personally I can see the day coming, when if hunting is banned then the fox will breed out of all proportion, food will be scarce for them and then watch out everyone as puppies, kittens, small dogs and cats will be on the menu.

Mr Joe Public is very very unaware of the implications to his or her fluffy pet, who when out on a walk in the park or countryside, decides to do what dogs do and chase after a squirrel or a hare.  Suddenly that lovely little lap dog, who is cossetted, spoiled and cuddled will be doing something illegal and both pet dog and owner may well be brought to task!!!!!!

As John said earlier, when the population of the the fox explodes and Rabies does cross the channel, do you think that our clever MP's will have pre-empted  the situation and given the fox anti rabies medication, not a hope, like everything this government does, they will try to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted and every dog in the UK will be at risk either by catching rabies or in the worse case scenario being pts under goverment orders.

As for the RSPCA putting to sleep thousands of healthy young hounds, god forbid!!!  I wouldn't like to be the one to do and have it on my conscience, would you?????

You presumably approve of the destruction that occurs every year at the end of each season to make way for the new younger hounds I was told by a member of the CA that in the region of 10,000 hounds are bred each year & that there are about 20,000 in the packs that hunt which means around half the packs are culled yearly he didn't see anything wrong in it

They are not destroyed by injection, but with a bullet & in the past the dead hounds became part of the food for the pack

Thank you Melodysk, your fingers are faster than mine :) 

I don't believe that the majority of people really think that this Bill has anything to do with them, nor will they until they fall foul of it when young 'Rover' accidentally catches his first rabbit/rat and they get reported :(

Its wierd really, when this Ban was first mooted I was all for it, after all hunting foxes with a pack of dogs and loads of people on horseback is barbaric.  But then I started listening to all the arguments, different methods of culling, what would happen to foxes if they aren't culled (death by injury, starvation etc.) what it meant to the average dog owner if they are charged with "hunting with dogs" ("honest officer he caught it by accident" - a likely story :rolleyes: ) The fact that this is not a ban on hunting foxes but a ban on hunting any animal with dogs - any dog!! and I have to say that in its present form I am totally against the Ban.

By the way, I am one of the General Public and I have never been asked my opinion on hunting with dogs, foxhunting or any other kind of hunting by any market researcher - ever, I also know many people who are against the ban and also have never been approached by market researchers.  So who are all these people who want it banned?? where do they live? how many members of society were polled and in which part of the country?

To say that Fox control should be left to Gamekeepers is I'm afraid a non starter. I only do a little part time keepering and believe me, time is short enough now. It takes two of us from 9am on a Saturday morning until about 1pm to just feed and water the pens. In dry weather we also have to bucket roughly 600 gallons of water from the brook and carry it to the pens which takes us a good hour. Feeding the rides will take us another hour and a half at least, and that's assuming we find no problems. On the days we need to offload feed, usually around 7 tons there is another hour gone.

The only dogs we have available is the Keeper's Springers and my Labs and trained gundogs are no use fro that job. After spending years training our dogs to be steady and not chase wildlife one fox hunt would destroy all the hard work. Also, in order to follow running dogs we would need to be on horse back.

In other words, we would need specialist dogs kept expressly for the job and we would need horses to follow them. Sound familiar?

Regards, John

You said that better than I ever could John ;-)

I can fully see your point John.  But why can't there be trained and of course paid *specialist* employees to handle the *specialist* hounds, on horseback if necessary?

Ironically, it is not so much the deed as the perception of it which is the main problem.  It's the "hobby" and "sport" tag which offends so many.  Were the followers of the hound packs only specialist hunters doing an honest days work for an honest pay it would IMO be seen as a totally different issue.

Regards, Teri

>It's the "hobby" and "sport" tag which offends so many.<

I wish that were true - the 'problem' would be so easy to solve. Unfortunately I think it is down to the way Society has become divorced from 'real life' - many children, country as well as town, are disgusted when they learn where milk comes from. Meat is sold in anonymous portions in clean plastic polythene-covered packs. Many people cannot accept that death is a fact of life.

>But why can't there be trained and of course paid *specialist* employees to handle the *specialist* hounds, on horseback if necessary?<

There are. They're called the hunt servants. They are paid from the subscriptions of the followers.

and because of them being paid by the followers, we have free pest control, that we do not have to pay for on our rates!!!!!

The fact that something is free to the taxpayer does not make it right, this is an ethical argument, not a monetary one....

Taken from The Times Online:

HUNTS, HOUNDS AND HORSES

There are 300 registered hunts in Britain.

Hunting contributes £250 million to the economy.

1.25 million people went hunting in 2000.

56,000 horses and 22,000 hounds are used in hunting.

Up to 8,000 full-time jobs would be risked by a ban.

Compensation worth at least £155 million would be sought from the Government in the event of a ban.

Approximately 75,000 foxes a year are killed by British hunts, 20 per cent of the fox population.

400,000 animal carcases were collected by hunts last year.

The "Specialists" are available now Teri. The fact that they wear red coats instead of wax cotton jackets should not interfere with the job. The problem is, if the hunting bill goes through, the best and most humane way of dealing with the fox will be gone because dogs will not be allowed to do it. All that will be left is the gun and poisons neither of which is a good way of doing the job. Guns cannot be safely used against Foxes on a shoot because the guns would in most cases be shooting directly towards the beaters or, if the fox is passing behind, us poor pickers up. We in common with many shoots have a golden rule on shoot days, "Nothing on the ground!" It's the safest way.

Regards, John

See my post about the News item, John. :( The boy died. :(

Teri says  >>But why can't there be trained and of course paid *specialist* employees to handle the *specialist* hounds, on horseback if necessary?

There are teri...its called the Hunt!

And does the Hunt have strict rules and guidelines that it hunts by?  If so, how often are they adhered to, and who monitors them?????

Yes Charliepud. There are very strict rules of conduct and any hunt that breaks the rules is liable to lose its licence to hunt.
Depending on quarry they are ruled by:

The Masters of Foxhounds Association

The Masters of Minkhounds Associations

The Masters of Deerhounds Association

Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles

Central Committee of Fell Packs .

I have only once in 30 years been witness rules not adhered to & then that was because of the idiot actions of one person who lost their temper. (It didnt involve an animal other that another human I am glad to say! :) )
Non hunting people seem to be under the impression that hunting folk are all well paid, underworked, toffs who gallop randomly across the countryside brutally killing anything that takes their fancy!!! nothing could be further from the truth & the rules regarding quarry, hunting it, depatching it & conduct are very tight.I will happily repaste my poll of hunt followers last saturday :)!

Sam, I am glad to see there are guidelines, but who makes the rules that have to be adhered to.  I have no interest in how much money or status the huntsmen and followers have, it is the ethics I am concerned with.
8,000 people could lose their jobs Chloe, that is sad, but some would find jobs elsewhere in the countryside.  Many sectors of the communities suffer large losses - eg boat building, car manufacturing, this is a sad fact of life moving on, it has always happened and always will.
Much as I enjoy watching the horse jumping etc at the Olympics, I do not feel that is a valid argument to continue hunting in it's current vein.

As I said before we are not going to change anyone's views, but someone said TB may be interested in seeing this argument, maybe we could email him the link?  I agree he is doing it to win voters to some extent, but I for one am glad, and I don't think the hunt supporters stopping guest's from entering Cherie Blair's birthday bash at Chequers, meaning large numbers of police, and two police helicopters being present would have made him any more sympathetic! :)

The argument that irritates me on here is the objection that folk take to it being labelled a sport and calling the followers "warped". Exactly HOW MANY of those opposing this have taken the time to go and follow a hunt in order to give an advised and informed opinion?

And I'm not talking about joining an "anti" demo - making childrens ponies rear, screaming and shouting and banging and trying to frighten the horses, and following people home and trying to beat them up - and yes, I KNOW this happens...so you tell me, who are the warped ones?

To my knowlege I have not labelled anyone warped, maybe it is not a sport, but it definitely is a sporting/social activity, that is just a word, it doesn't alter people's opinions on what happens at a hunt.
I would be scared to go on a hunt to be honest, firstly I would not be prepared to be involved from a pro hunters side, secondly from the anti hunting side, I don't quite feel I would belong there either as I do not agree what some of the hard set do, and thirdly, I don't ride and I find horses a bit big and scary - pathetic but true! :D

You don't need to be on either side to just go and watch a hunt go - no-one asks an opinion and at my local Boxing Day hunt you just mingle in the very big crowds and watch what happens - then jump in your car and follow everyone else :)

Come meet my horses - they might lick you to death though! :D :D

I was frightened enough leading my daughter around Center Parcs on a diddy pony (Shetland?) and boy did the little sod know it, playe me up something rotten, yet I have trained dogs not much smaller!

I'm terrified of shetties LOL

Sam,

Do you actually read posts fully?  The "professional huntsmen" and their hounds have yet to be criticised by me.  Merely the *hobby set* who tag along for fun/sport.  As a committed animal lover I cannot understand the mentality of it.

And why the need for such sarcasm to myself and others who don't share your views?  The same must in fairness be said of some of the posts by Chloe and Melody.  While this issue is obviously a very emotive subject, the majority of anti-hunting replies have in fact been specifically critical of it being seen as a sport.  Most have agreed that the fox population needs to be controlled and several have agreed that being killed by hounds is probably a quicker death than injury by a poor gun shot, or the agonies of poisoning and trapping.

There is nothing wrong with healthy debate and several people on both sides of the fence have put forward reasonable and polite argument for their particular stance on the issue.  The fact that you find fox hunting an enjoyable hobby and I find it (as a hobby) repulsive is clearly not going to change - there is surely no need to set out intentionally to personally ridicule or offend anyone.

Teri
    

Teri - what about those who go along to gain experience for their horses? I'm pretty sure some of our olympic XC horses will have hunted at some point?

Hi Chloe,

I don't see that whether the horses and their riders being part of a national team makes any difference to the culling v sporting fun debate.

There are excellent XC opportunities in our green and pleasant land where horses be it for fun or competition can be put through their paces and trained to the highest standards.  Far more safely too without the inherent dangers of collisions.

Teri

Chloe....not to mention all the point to pointers & then ex racers, jumpers etc that go hunting.  Hunting is believed to be one of the finest training grounds for both riders & horses & is the only way to really learn the balance needed for the xcountry phase. Luckily all (I think)our olympian team are followers of hounds & learned their skills coming up through the hunt Pony Clubs and by getting out there in the field.

Wasn't aware I had been sarcastic in this thread ..I have enjoyed the debate, despite the inference that we who are pro hunting have warped minds :)

Well Manic Morse and I have been accused of hunting before now when hes had a rabbit or 2. Not funny. Whether we like it or not dogs like foxes are predators, hunters and so are humans. This is why dogs and people originally got together. If people oppose animal killing to the extent of being vegan, I respect their pov and only wish some of em would extend the same courtesy to those who disagree. This whole hunting thing is less about genuine animal welfare (on the part of the politicians) than holding the current government to its promises made in its pursuit of power. There is greater animal cruelty seen daily in our towns than in a days hunting, and misguided sentiment is infinitely more cruel than the kill. Are cat owners going to be had up for their pets killing birds and mice, and not just killing em but playing with em first? Maybe cat bells should be compulsory - RSPB reckoned that they did most damage to bird populations when I listened to the Radio 4 Bird watch in spring.

There was an interesting piece on "Money Box" on the radio yesterday lunch time which I heard. The thoughts in some quarters are that the government has got into difficulties with their pension legislation and are pushing the hunting bill through because they would like to run out of time with their pension bill. That way they can blame the House of Lords for the pension bill getting dropped. The fact that so many people are in danger of either loosing their pensions or not getting the pension they have paid all their life for is immaterial.

Regards, John

I think Got into difficulties is a rather kind way of saying Messed it up as usual due to cowardice, John.