I have borrowed this from Frank Jackson's column in Our Dogs this week, but I personally think it is very relevant to what may be about to happen this coming week in Parliament.

I have no knowledge of who originally wrote it.

I dreamed and lo! in this my dream the cranks had had their way.
Foxhunting was forbid for ever and a day;
No more across the English grass might English sportsmen ride,
No more the scarlet coats be seen at winter covert-side.

But what of 'Muster Reynolds' whom this law was passed to save
From a death that befits him as a brigand wild and brave?
Alas I saw quite clearly what must now become his fate
With none to stand between him and the chicken-farmers hate.

The shot at dusk, the shot at dawn, the snatched uncertain pain,
The wounds that only slowly kill, the wounds that only maim,
The bitter gripe of poison and the burning rending pain,
The broken teeth and bleeding jaws that bite the trap in vain.

The roly pups in summer dawns that scrapped and played amain
Are dying now by inches, for their dam comes not again;
She is lying at a dyke back with a gin upon her pad,
The broken bleeding sacrifice to sentiment run mad.

I woke, and knew it but a dream; for yet 'Mus' Reynolds ran
As he did before the wolf pack ere ever there was man;
I woke, but breathed a little prayer for fear of what impends;
God pity little foxes and save them from their friends

and as Frank Jackson rightly said Amen to that.

It's so very very true, Lady Dazzle.

This bill will certainly not do foxes any good. Nor will it do dog owner any good when rabies gets into the country as it will on day soon.

John.

All together now

BAN THE HUNT

to the tune of

'If you're happy and you know it'

CC: 10 Downing Street (unacknowledged)

If you want to show your mettle-BAN THE HUNT
If you want to grasp a 'nettle' BAN THE HUNT
If your backbenchers are roaring
and the crime rate it is soaring
from the coffers cash is pouring
BAN THE HUNT

It makes such a catchy 'headline-BAN THE HUNT
We will set an urgent deadline -BAN THE HUNT
Whilst the peace of our great nation
Transport health and education
seem to be beyond salvation
BAN THE HUNT

Show that government is working-BAN THE HUNT
Proof that there will be no shirking -BAN THE HUNT
If you've lost control of law
Saving pensions is a bore
and you can't drum up a war
THEN BAN THE HUNT

Just to show we earn our wages-BAN THE HUNT
Been discussing this for ages-BAN THE HUNT
Not enough determination
to get tough on immigration
But we plead in mitigation
BAN THE HUNT

Lock your livestock up in boxes-BAN THE HUNT
'Cos you cant be cruel to foxes-BAN THE HUNT
When they raid and maim and loot
(Are you SURE--they look so cute)
You can poison trap and shoot
'em. BAN THE HUNT

If you need an easy target-BAN THE HUNT
Cant control the Common Market-BAN THE HUNT
If your feeble leadership
Should be showing signs of slip
and you feel you've lost your grip
THEN BAN THE HUNT

You beat me to it Chloe :D :D

What really confuses me is how things can possibly have changed so much, co quickly. When I worked for the RSPCA in the late 70s, the official line was that hunting with hounds was the least cruel (to the fox) of all the options. It was the only method of control which never left the quarry wounded. We saw foxes that had been snared, shot and wounded, and poisoned. We didn't see the gassed ones because they died underground, but we knew it went on. The others died painful, lingering deaths. This never happened with the hunt. The death is quick. What happens after may not be 'pretty' but it's no more cruel than cutting up a chicken carcass - the animal is dead so is not suffering.

The conclusion of the report in the early 70s (Henderson report?) and the recent Butler report have been the same: the idea may distress people but the reality is that death by hound is the 'least cruel' option. Sentiment has no part to play.

Like almost every new bill affecting animals this will be rushed in and very probably not fully thought through.

To be clear, I am wholeheartedly against fox hunting as a "sport" - although I can understand the need for population control.  I do agree that poisoning them, shooting, trapping etc are completely abhorent and will lead to many animals dying slowly and suffering a horrible fate.

I think the general public could more readily accept the pursuit and killing of foxes by for eg. an official gamekeeper's hound pack - it is the image of a band of the "smart set" having FUN at an organised "sporting activity" that causes such strong emotions.  That specific image comes across to most ordinary people as nothing short of barbaric - and it's not hard to see why - hence the strength of feeling against hunting.

I've "mock" hunted for years - plenty of fun, cameraderie and fast gallop excitement BUT not ending in the death of an animal!  The riders can easily *get their jollies* elsewhere.

Yes, let the hound packs do their job with genuine experts controlling the hunt (without a meeting up of voyeuristic hangers on) if this is truly the best way forward but don't let an army of the weekend horsey set claim it as a "sport" and part of the Great British heritage - that's where the cause loses credibility.   At one time beheading, hanging/drawing and quartering people, etc. etc. were all part of British heritage ...... :D

Gamekeepers don't keep hounds Teri. Yes, they do shoot Foxes when the opportunity presents its self. The thing is we might think we know what's in our woods but it is so hard to be sure. The local hunt came through our woods last week. We knew there was a fox or two there. The hunt found 9! Unfortunately they only killed 2 and neither of those was on our land.

Regards, John

Hi John, I actually know gamekeepers are confined to shooting them :-(  which I agree has far more potential to cause injury and lingering death than hounds - I just think it would be a more publically acceptable method for someone of similar ilk to a gamekeeper to hunt foxes with hounds and would help instill in Joe Public that it was for population control only - and not a *sporting* activity.

Regards, Teri

The hunt is no more made up of the "smart set voyeristically hanging on to watch a kill" than every single anti hunt supporter being part of the unsmart set of unwashed, animal rights dole claimers with nothing better to do. "The general public"? Not around here - 90% of the General Public around here support hunting - and the folk who hunt around here are some of the nicest, most appreciative, friendly and welcoming folk you could meet. And I don't hunt - but I have followed and not to "voyeristically hang on" but to watch the horses.

And lets not forget that those who "voyeristically hang on" generally don't see anything anyway - because its usually over and done with by the hounds and the huntsmen on foot before the followers even get there from what I understand - assuming they actually catch anything that is!

Oh how I agree with you Teri - it is the business of 'killing for entertainment' that has led to this Hunting Ban. Many Many people just cannot understand the mind set of those who use the death of an animal as an integral part of their 'hobby'. If hunting was carried out by a couple of people as their job and without all the prolonged chasing and digging out etc then it might be more acceptable to the general public as it stands now I for one will be very glad to see this outdated and yes barbaric 'sport' banned.

I think I can see your point, Trevor, but are you honestly telling me that people genuinely believe the level of 'barbarism' involved is dependent on how many people attend, or even what they're wearing?

I don't agree trevor, if you think about it what is kinder to the fox, is it better to shoot the fox from a far distance and not kill it straight away and then leave it to suffer.
Or poison it and leave it to die a painful slow death.
Or trap it and also leave it to try and chew its own leg off so it can break free.
Or is it better to have 40-50 dogs that can kill it in a couple of seconds.
No matter how cute they look foxes are vermin that have to be kept down, and hunting is the kindest most humane way to do it. 

sarah xxxx

I fail to see how anyone can disagree with Trevor's comment that it's the business of "killing for entertainment" that has led to the ban.   Regardless of any individuals personal feelings on the ban coming into force, surely everyone can understand that the portrayal of the "tally-ho" brigade as being out to ENJOY a fox being hounded deeply offends?

The fact that the hunt members make it a social event and dress up for the occasion only compounds the image of cruelty!   As Trevor says, and as I tried to explain in my original post, if it were done as part of a "job" it would not be viewed so distastefully - it would be, as defined at one time by the RSPCA, a quicker, kinder and more natural method of essential culling than poisons, traps, shooting et al.

Teri

    

>surely everyone can understand that the portrayal of the "tally-ho" brigade as being out to ENJOY a fox being hounded deeply offends?<

I suppose so. :) In the same way that football supporters, in imitation team strip, chanting obscenities, offend others. Their sport (soccer) would remain the same without their presence too, and the 'general public' would be less intimidated.

And I think you're absolutely right that it is the 'killing for entertainment' aspect that has lead to a possible ban. Let's face it, it has nothing to do with animal welfare.
:)

"Killing for entertainment"? Is it not killing to keep the numbers down? Is that not why the farmers allow the hunt on their land? Just because people choose to follow for the social aspect in traditional attire - it suddenly turns it into a bloodbath? I would definitely hunt (if I were brave enough) but I wouldn't want to see the kill at the end - why does that make me have a warped mind? Its a job that needs doing and I would welcome the opportunity for a good gallop and so would my horse - leaving the business end (the huntsmen) to do the job? From what I see the followers barely get near the fox?

From the farmers POV yes it is merely to keep the numbers down. I'm like Chloe - I wouldn't like to see the kill at the end, and though I have drag hunted when I was younger - I have never been on, nor will go on a real hunt. Though many of the followers aren't close enough to actually see the kill and go purely for the social aspect and the exercise it gives the horse.

To Chloe and Ice cosmos,

Drag hunting etc is an enjoyable, social hobby that has the thrills and spills without the blood part and our horses (just like our dogs) should only be kept if we're giving them plenty of exercise anyway :-)

IMO, actual participation in a real fox hunt condones the "sport". 

Teri

Having discussed this many times with my farming friends (some for hunting, some anti) none of them would allow drag hunting on their land. The ones who are in favour of hunting don't want their stock scared/land damaged without the benefit of pest control, and the ones who are anti don't want their livestock scared/land damaged full stop.

I have no interest in drag hunting - and whilst they hunt every weekend and in the week here there is no drag hunting for miles. The farmers are not interested.

Trevor

Ditto, I second everything you say.  The supporters of fox hunting with hounds may say the death is quick, quicker than a shot that injures but does not kill outright, but the chase to the death is the most barbaric 'sport' ever. 

Hi Chloe,

I personally have met many "hobby" hunters through my many years involvement in horses and yes - socially, most seem regular, friendly, nice people  ;-)  I however think there is a warped side to the character of anyone who enjoys participating in fox hunting as a "sport" - regardless of whether they actually see the fox being killed, they are fully aware before saddling up of what they are about to participate in!

When referring to the general public it was on a national basis - it's easy to work out that rural folk v city folk would have a fairly substantial difference in their views on a multitude of subjects defined as country pursuits.  However, head for head per population in the UK would see the rural fraternity vastly outnumbered on the fox hunting issue - simply because it is defined as a *hobby* and *sport*.    That any animal lover can enjoy a hobby that results in the lengthy pursuit and final death of any animal does not sit well with the general public - of which I am most definitely one ;-)

Teri

The latest poll (though I've never been asked, and I don't think I know anyone else who has) 59% of 'the general public' think it ought to be left alone.

Hi Teri - could you point me in the direction of where I can find your statistics please? Thanks

"I however think there is a warped side to the character of anyone who enjoys participating in fox hunting as a "sport" - regardless of whether they actually see the fox being killed, they are fully aware before saddling up of what they are about to participate in
"

Here here.

Sure, the Government :D

Countryside Alliance '59% say keep hunting' poll 'misleading'
The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA), an independent regulatory body, has today upheld a complaint made by the League Against Cruel Sports against the Countryside Alliance's advertising claim that '59% of the public say keep hunting'.

The ASA considered the complaint for eight months and in its final report, published today, the ASA has ruled the poll 'misleading', which means that the Countryside Alliance will not be able to advertise this claim again. It has also been advised to seek advice before producing any future advertisement.

In addition to this, the Market Research Society (MRS), the professional body for market, social and opinion researchers has made similar criticisms against NOP, the polling company used by the Countryside Alliance. MRS criticised NOP for failing to ask objective questions of respondents, for failing to carry out research "objectively and in accordance with established scientific principles" and for "being guilty of conduct" which "might bring discredit on the [market research] profession."

As you know, the League, IFAW and the RSPCA commissioned a poll last November which clearly spelt out the facts - 76% of the population want hunting with dogs to be made illegal (MORI November 2003).

I'm country born & bred

I have never seen the point of a pack of dogs being followed by a load of people on horses chasing a fox until sometimes the dogs kill it.

I have a good few friends who are farmers who will not allow the hunts on their land for various reasons, his stock being panicked & injured when the hunt charge across fields, wayward hounds killing farm cats, horses being injured on their land, damage done to crops in the fields etc.

The local hunt regularly "lose"hounds during hunts & they have chased & killed people's pet cats in our village so often the parish council has made it clear they are not welcome here(& everyone on the PC is a farmer or farmers wife)

The last time the hounds came through the village they left a trail of dog muck behind  them on pavements, roads & in people's gardens

We have several free range chicken farms in the area & none of them ever lose chickens & other fowl to foxes because they are securely fenced in during the day & are in secure sheds on a night.

The sheep farmers lose sheep not to foxes but to dogs that either aren't controlled properly or have been dumped. One as just invested in a couple of flock protection dogs as an experiment.

Sorry but hunting belongs with bull baiting & other "blood"sports outlawed & in the past

Along with fishing then?

Not really the same thing Melody, I've never heard of anyone sitting down to dine on the remains (if any) of foxes ;-)

Yes it is Teri ..it is hunting ...instead of dogs, it is with a large metal hook through the mouth. But because it is a popular *sport* and because  a fish isn't a cute fluffy thing, no one cares ;)

IF people ate all the fish caught, fair enough , but in competition angling, the fish are hooked and then released ...are you saying it isn't cruel? And fish don't prey on chickens and lambs etc ;)

>but in competition angling, the fish are hooked and then released ...are you saying it isn't cruel?<

On the contrary, Melody, I DO think it's cruel ;-)

Ban fishing then - after all, its cruel to the worm. While your at it - ban cars - because they kill foxes and wildlife. And why not ban drinking too - I'd hate for anyone to do anything they enjoyed or have freedom of CHOICE. You think this ban will last or will stop hunting? I don't think so.

Cars kill far more foxes around here than the hunt :(

<sigh>

I find it very sad that you have to resort to such silly replies to support your love of blood sports

Lets got the other way then, 

Bring back dog fighting legally, bull baiting, public hanging,  public floggings, bonded servants(slavery) etc etc etc

Even better gladiators in the arena fighting to the death

Scratch a little & the barbarian is still under the skin of many Homo Sapiens

Cars kill and maim more humans than foxes  - yet they aren't banned - yet :(

Daisy

Straw man Daisy ..we aren't talking about hunting humans :)

Sorry Mel - I was just making the point that people accept the day to day loss of life - whether purely accidental or more culpable - without a word. Yet - there is so much said about fox hunting. Not that I am saying that people shouldn't have their say about it, but are the people who worry about the fox hunting so worried about even greater loss of human life, whether it be the deaths on our roads every day or the even greater loss of people in hospitals by preventables such as MRSA :(

Daisy

I understand what you're saying, Daisy. It seems to me that the people who want to ban foxhunting also want to ban death. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately, or else the planet wouldn't be big enough to hold all of us) that's not an option.

Sorry Daisy :D I see what you mean now :p

;)

Daisy

No, but we are talking about animals that are also mammals just like us.  Just because they walk on 4 legs not 2 does not mean they are devoid of emotion, don't feel fear, don't feel pain, or are a 'lesser being', or worthy of less respect in how they die.  Sure, some will die the way nature and their lifestyle dictates but that does not mean that man can intervene and cause deliberate suffering. They are living beings and as such should be treated with respect; anything less is barbaric.

Have you seen new born lambs taken by foxes? I even know of a new born calf being dragged from its mother by a couple close to here. Foxes are killers - and not just for food either. My earliest memory was of a friends rabbit decapitated - I was petrified of foxes for most of my childhood following that. It had caved the hutch chicken wire in and killed the rabbit for fun.

Yes I have Chloe and seen ducklings and goslings and our own domestic cat go the same way.   But that is nature.  There is a natural order for things.  There are animals that are prey for others and there are predators.  That is survival.  When man uses hounds to chase and kill foxes it is for 'SPORT'.  That is what makes it an obscenity.

So the fox doesn't kill chickens for sport?

Hounds don't kill for sport. Hounds kill because canines are predators. Man has eradicated the fox's natural predator (the wolf) so has to redress the balance.

Deliberate suffering is what will be allowed to happen when people take pot shots at foxes when they are trapped ,gased or poisoned and when the population becomes to much for the area they live in and starvation takes its toll.Nature isnt kind.

Our local 'free-range' chicken farm can't say them same, I'm afraid. Despite electric fencing and the birds shut in at night I regularly find bits of hen several fields away. And the farm that used to rear free-range pigs changed to arable because the fox losses (one night 11 piglets from a litter of 14 were killed or taken) were too great. The lamb losses are equally great.
:(

Our neighbours across the road had one of their chickens taken from their front garden recently, in broad daylight, while they watched from the window - only a few feet from their house :(

Daisy

An urban fox went on a spree when I lived in Hayes, West London, and managed to decapitate several family pet rabbits. Didn't eat them, just killed them :(