Went to an exemption show at the weekend to be told that Fagan ( 5 and a bit month old Irish Setter) has an overshot jaw and a retained testical :(  obviously this news really cut as I have entered him in 4 champ shows already and I was really looking forward to showing him.  I think the jaw thing is just temporary until his bottom jaw grows a bit as his bite was perfect when we got him and he has a lot of growing to do yet.  The retained testicle thing has really thrown me, im not only gutted because I cant show him but also because I might have to get him neutered.  Im going to take him to the vets tomorrow but can anyone give me an idea of what to expect ?  I have been told that they will give injections up until a year old which can help it come down or if that doesnt work then they might not neuter him they will just remove the retained testicle?   Ive also been told massage can help   The annoying thing is that no one can remember if he ever had two, his breeder is sure she checked all the pups before they left but he didnt have any when we took him to the vets at 8 weeks.  Im sure the breeder checked him again at about 16 weeks but no one can be sure

If anyone has any advice it would be most greatfully recieved.

5 months is far to early to panic yet BB. Both have plenty of time to come right yet. The thing about any judge is that they can only judge a doh on what they can see on the day. Not on what they know about the dog or what they think it might end up like.

Actually 5 months old is too young for a show run under an exemption license. The age limit is 6 months on the day of the show.

Just relax and see how things finish up. Dogs do worry us with their growing patterns

Best wishes, John

I know 5 months is too young, just thought a little white lie wouldnt hurt to get some practice in - wont be doing that again :(

Hiya Claire

I am hoping that this story might reassure you a wee bit.
My Gordon's Dad had this problem and his owner and breeder never thought he would come too much, however the testicle dropped when he was approx 7 or 8 months old and he has sucessfully produced 3 litters of healthy puppies.
Take him to the vet and see what he comes up with. Try not to panic too much. As for the jaw, well the bottom jaw is slower growing so It'll probably sort itself out.
If the shows aren't too far from you I would take him anyway, the experience will stand him in good stead for when everything is in it's correct place.

Hope this helped a wee bit

Alli

Don't despair yet. Many years ago, at my first every exemption show, my OH handled our 5 month old puppy ( I wasn't brave enough) He won a second & when he came out of the ring OH said that the judge said he would have won a first if he'd been entire. "Entirely what?" I asked. (I've learned a bit since then). Anyway, he became entirely entire at 7 months!
His bite may well also come right with a bit more maturity. Good luck.

Don't panic we had a Tervueren male who retained a testicle until he was 18 months then it came down fine. ( I also show my pups at 5 months at exemption shows - it's the best kind of show training you can do prior to entering the 'proper shows' :-) - as someone mentioned, teeth do all sorts of strange things during puppyhood so I wouldnt worry for a few months yet

Thanks for your replies everyone, you have given me a bit of hope :)  We are off to the vets tonight to see what he says, poor little Fagey is fed up with people poking around his nether regions   I dont think I will show him at any champ shows though until he is right, I dont want him "labelled" before he gets a chance to prove himself.

fingers crossed for the future :)

As everyone says don't panic! My puppy had definately got two testicles at home but every time we went anywhere training classes and exemption shows for practice he would suddenly become the ball less dog! He had the ability to suck one or even both up until he was just over 6 months old. He now has two just where they should be. I wasn't aware of it until at training class one evening  the lady taking it said "Your puppy has one testicle" I said "no he has two" Next turn around the hall and she was surprised, as she said, "He has two now!" You can imagine how I felt until he lost the ability to do this. Each training class or exempt show was a nightmare! I would often check them myself just before allowing the judge to go over him.

I was hoping this is what Fagan had been doing and ive been checking at different times during the day but he still only has one :(  Never mind, im not panicing honest im not panicing (see - im chilled :D :D)

LOL at Polly. I can imagine the scenario.. before the Lady came over you checking if his prowess was fully in view!! Then keeping your fingers crossed that his balls would not disapear as she gave him the once over. Maybe she had cold hands LOL

:D :D

Regarding the age bit, I was one of the organisers of an exemption show, the judge is a very well known one and also involved in the KC, he allowed a 14 week old pup to be shown.  I adivsed him that I was unhappy as far as I knew it was against the rules, this dog actually ended up winning best puppy too!!  I was not amused especially as owners of my pups who were 2 weeks short of 6 months were there and I told them that they couldn't show the dogs.

I'm surprised that a 14 week old pup was shown at an exemption show, I never show mine under six months anywhere, but with this pup and his strange ability, as soon as he was six months we did do a couple of exemption shows to hopefully stop him doing it. As it turned out he didn't do it at his first two open shows or his first champ show. Dogs eh? Who'd have em? lol

I got caught out when someone entered an under age puppy at an exemption show. Polly will remember it. I believe it was the year we had Steve Dean judging. I got told off over it. The competitor may not catch the flack but the organisers do :(

I'm also surprised anyone would present a dog at any show without knowing what it's bite was like and how many testicles it had!

John

Thanks John, like I dont feel stupid enough :(

I was told at ringcraft that he was slightly overshot but not to worry and I honestly didnt think anything of it when I entered him for the show.  As for his testicles they had been checked previously and I was sure he had two so didnt think I needed to check again :(

I took Fagan to the vets last night and he couldnt find his "lost" testicle anywhere and has said there is no chance of it coming down :(  Im not getting him totally castrated, im just getting the one removed and im going to wait until he is older just in case the other one decides to make an appearance.

Claire

What about a second opinion? (I don't know if this is an option)

There isn't anything that anyone can say that will make you feel better. I am devestated for you as I know how much you wanted to show Fagan. I hope everything turns out with the best possible outcome and I'm sure Fagan will be loved regardless.

Alli

Thanks Alli, I know there is nothing anyone can say his breeder is as devastated as me as he was the pick dog :(  It is clutching at straws but one of the other breeders mentioned some injections that they can have, im not sure what its all about but we are looking into and may possibly go to another vet for a second opinion just to be sure.  To be entirely sure I wont get the retained one removed until he is about 2 years old.  I think I have accepted the fact though that it wont be coming down :(

At the end of the day we dont love him any less and would no way get rid of him as some people I have spoken to suggested   It has also kicked me up the butt to do something different to showing with him.  Because I used to show Afghans its like a comfort blanket to me, now I cant show Fagan I am going to give obedience a go (he is quite good already) and later on agility.  Im still looking into field trials as that is what I really wanted to do with him before I got the showing bug again :rolleyes:

Hi Claire

I'm sure Fagan will turn out to be fabulous at obedience/agility or working. I have heard of owners pet homing dogs who are just not up to scratch and if this is the way they want to conduct themselves that is up to them. Personally I am of the opinion that if you take a dog/puppy on you have a responsibility towards it for the rest of their life. I wish you all the luck in the world with him and hope you enjoy whatever you end up doing.

Alli

Thanks for your kind words Alli, we are hoping to go down in Irish Setter Obedience history :D :D :D

Heya, theres an Irish Setter which represented the West at crufts in the regional obedience competition. He's really gorgeous and has moved up through the classes at the same pace as my first collie. He is a Cataluna irish setter, absolutely stunning, and has won a novice in obedience. His owner has had to work really hard with him but its certainly paying off :)

Too late now but I still think you are being a bit premature. Like I said in my first post they are often late. I've known testicals to drop right up to a year old. I'm surprised your vet did not tell you this.

John

Hi

If I were you I would wait before you do anything, as many have alreasy said it can take a while. At 5 and a bit months he is still a baby I'd wait.

Karen

John what am I too late for ?

I am also surprised that the vet didnt say that its possible it could still come down, in fact when I told him I wanted to wait another year or so to see if it did come down he basically said ive more chance of seeing father christmas :( 

I wont be getting the retained one removed until he is at least 2 years old and will be keeping my fingers crossed until then :)

Just one thing, the shows which I have entered, do I have to let them know I wont be attending or do I just not turn up ?

Most shows are pleased if an exhibitor lets them know, however as I have found most just don't turn up and the ring stewards spend time looking for absentees. If you don't let the show secretary know then do let someone in your breed know who can at least inform the ring stewards. There is no written rule about that I know of. I know sometimes bitches can catch us out and come in season on the first day of a show, so we end up staying at home, and have no way of letting the show sec or fellow exhibitors know we won't be there.
As everyone says don't give up on Fagan yet, it can take quite a long time before a puppy has two testicles where nature intended. I wonder if your boy is like my puppy, who could suck them up. At home he had two most of the time, but if he was stressed at training or a show he would make one definately disappear, he also did this at the vets, who said the same as your vet did that it would never come right. My boy was easily 7 and a bit months before he stopped doing this.
A friend of mine used to do some kind of massage to help the dog relax and make two testicles appear, I'll write and ask her what it was she did, or you could write if you like. She lives in Spain so only answers emails once a week. She is a professional handler and runs a kennels and B&B there. Her email is doghouse_358@yahoo.co.uk

I will ask Fagans breeder to let the ring stewards know that he wont be attending, that way if by chance it drops the night before we can still go :D :D

My vet seemed so adament that it would not come down because he could feel it so said it must still be in the abdomem, I think I will go for a second opinion though it cant hurt.

I will email your friend Polly thank you, I have heard of the massage but only second hand - I just hope my OH doesnt get jealous

When you bought your pup did the breeder sell hm to you as a potential show dog? If she did I'm sure she would have checked to see that both testicles were there and therefore it must still be there...just give it time to drop.
Ask your breeder if she checked...
Archer

Yes he was sold as a potential show dog and the breeder is sure that she checked and that he was ok as she checked all of them, but she is now doubting herself.  At 8 weeks when I took him for his first jab neither were down but then that could have been nerves made him pull them up.  If the other one has already been down and gone back up would the vet not be able to feel it in the enguinal passage (yes I know ive spelt that totally wrong :D ) he couldnt find it and said it must be in the abdomen.  Its all so confusing :rolleyes:

I would do as everyone else has said....wait and see.Don't make any snap decision as even if you decide to have him castrated its better if you allow him to mature first.
I wouldn't be making any decisions till he was at least 12 months old.
Hope things turn out right
Archer 

thanks for your advice, I certainly wont be making any snap decisions on castrating him (well im only getting the one removed so it wont affect him or his coat :) ) Apparantly setters are 27 months old before they have stopped growing and changing so I wont get anything done before then :)

Hi Blondebird, just to add my two pennorth. I'm an Irish Setter owner of thirty years, and you'll find that Fagan has a massive amount of growing and maturing to do yet. He'll not be in his prime till he's about four years old,so try not to concern yourself too much, with how things look at the moment. You're right to leave any decision about the testicle till he's much older, I'm betting you won't have to do anything at all. As for the mouth, the bottom jaw is last to stop growing, which is why I have worried so much about under shot problems in my other breed (American Cockers)

Just as a matter of interest, who bred Fagan? My boy Bailey, aka, Cataluna Son of a Gun, was bred by Liz Rose-Hay,  he's 8 years old now, and by the Crufts 1995 winner, Sh Ch Starchelle Chicago Bear.

Dawn R.

Hi Dawn

Thanks for your message, I understand from the trainer at ringcraft(who is a champ show judge for Irish) that Fagan is immature for his age too so hopefully all my worries are unfounded.

He was bred by Mary and Derek Weller whos bitch's name I cant remember but she is Strathmead something.  His father is Kirkavagh Kalaglow who is the son of crufts BIS winner whos name escapes me but I believe his great granfather is Intrepid who also won BIS @ crufts (im still practicing memorising his pedigree so I could be wrong ;) )

So its fingers crossed at the moment :)

Claire :)

Hi again Claire,Sh Ch Kirkavagh Kalaglow is in fact by Sh Ch Caspians Interpid, and it was Intrepid that was Best in Show at Crufts 1999. His father Sh Ch Danaway Debonaire was the Crufts BIS in 1993, both were owned by Jackie Lorrimer, both were breed record holders for number of CCs in their time. Debonaire won 40 odd and Intrepid more than doubled that with something like 85, dont quote me!
I'm not familiar with the Wellers but I just looked them up in the Crufts catalogue. If the mother of your puppy is Strathmead April in Paris, she too is by Intrepid.

Keep practising your pedigree memorising, it's a facinating subject. You'll find that Champ show catalogues are great text books. I refer to my collection all the time.
Dawn R.

His mother is Strathmead Stormwind over Fenura (I now have his pedigree in front of me ;) )

It is really interesting looking at his pedigee, he is line bred too which makes it even more confusing

I did think he had two BIS winners in his pedigree but I couldnt remember if it was G. father or G.G grandfather or GGG grandfather :rolleyes:

Ive met a lot of his relatives at club events and have also looked up some on the net.  Thanks for the info though, I never knew that :)

hello
im not to sure about the teeth problem as the bottom is last to grow when i had an american cocker bitch who was fine until she hit 5 and a half months and then she went undershot:( but the breeder let me have the litter brother which was very nice of her

but i would give the testical a bit more time homopathic remidies can help http://www.ainsworths.com there phone number is on the top of the first page they give really good advice as well its worth a try and it wont harm him at all

we were chatting to our vet once and he said he had found one that had workrd its way to under the armpit so they really can end up anywere he had to follow the cord to find it
fiona