Please help settle an ongoing debate between me and my partner, we have a 4 month old male staffie puppy who is very confident, he has already started humping everything in sight, this included a very large dominant male staffie who wasn't too impressed! I want him to be castrated, we have no plans to show him or breed from him and our trainer suggest we get him done , however all the male staffies we have seen to date have been intact, my other half is having issues with castrating our pup (think it might be an empathy thing). Does anyone out there have any advice?

My opinion is ALWAYS to neuter and spay if you don't plan to breed and if one does plan to breed, they better do it right. There are health benefits in neutering and spaying and some behavior benefits.

The humping may or may not be helped. Even the girls do that. My dogs are all spayed and neutered and my girl Chihuahua does it to the boy Chi and visa versa. It's like a game to them who is going to be the boss for this round. LOL. If a dog does that to a human, I would just tell them to knock it off. That's not good manners. They learn. (same with lifting their leg indoors) I've never had a problem with that because I tell the dog to KNOCK THAT OFF!!!! (if they try it) (I read in another thread where someone was having that problem and with all the reasons and advice.....diapers etc....I couldn't believe no one would suggest telling the dog "NO!" My dog tried it once. They don't know any better. But they soon find out....that is... if they're MY dog!

My male Doberman is well socialized and neutered. He is 1 yr. old. He's friendly with other male dogs and still just wants to play. I see no aggression in him with other dogs. (he is still young though) There's nothing to compete with as far as females and territory where females are concerned. That gets less interesting to them. Dogs tend to not wander off (if you don't have a fence) as much when neutered. Well, you can look online too for the pro's and con's. I think there are more pro's IMO.

Good luck.

Carrie

First do not expect that castration will get you a perfect non bonking puppy it wont. It may make a difference, it may make no difference and it may make things worse. Castration is not a replacement for training and what you are describing is normal puppy behaviour. It you must castrate then leave it as late as you possible can and at least until he is fully grown, and be aware that castration can lead to future health problems including something called feminisation syndrome that is much worse than a young dogs juvenile humping and some dogs do suffer reduced immunity amongst other things.

Hi Jackie,
What's "feminisation syndrome" (sorry, just being nosy!!), I've not heard of this before.

Sarah

You will find a good few people who have threads on there who's dogs are suffering from it, something goes wrong with the hormone system of the dog and he starts to produce a scent that suggests to other dogs that he is a bitch in season, this causes other dogs to pester him and that in turn can lead to fights. It can be treated by giving HRT (steroids)  they are expensive but help in that they replace those the dog can't make for himself because a part of his hormonal has been removed. Just as we do with humans if our reproductive hormone producing system is removed through ill health or disease.

IIf you approach your vet they can administer a drug (sorry dont know what it is called) which can simulate a castration.  You should then be able to tell whether it will make a difference to him or not.  Otherwise he should grow out of it, he is only 4 months old after all. 

Would not like to think a vet would administer unnecessary hormones to a pup of 4 month. His behaviour is normal and all that is needed is to let him know that you do not like it, if it worries you. Believe the trade name is Tardec or Tarkac but my ability to spell or rather not to spell is beyond the believe of most people :)

Think there must be something wrong with me (apart from the spelling) if my pups show any liking for peoples legs and arms I supply them with a toy or a beanbag to practices on.

Tardak is a dose of female hormones so it *simulates* the effect of castration by adding a counteracting hormone but not in the way castration works (i.e. by removing testosterone). It has also been associated with removing inhibition and increased aggression in some dogs. Use with care.

Janet

Hi Ceristaffie,
I thought you might like to hear a few positive words about castration. We had our Cairn castrated at 6 months because like your dog he was bonking EVERYTHING in sight. There was one occasion when stopping briefly to talk to a neighbour in the street, Hamish started bonking his leg, and we hardly know him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There have been no ill effects whatsoever. The bonking has, as the vet said gradually lessened over the months apparently it takes about 6 months for the effects of the castration to take effect.
Our gutsy, full of character little dog is STILL a gutsy, full of character little dog. Nothing in his character has changed and he is having lots more fun now, as he is not SO driven by his hormones.
The other thing is we sometimes have our local dog walker take him out with other dogs, sometimes with bitches and we don't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.
I thoroughly recommend it.
Good luck,
A

Like Jacki H - I agree that the best answer is to find a way of distracting the behaviour.  I've had a 9 week old male puppy "bonking" everything in sight too - he didn't actually KNOW what he was doing or why ;-)

Castration and spaying is the modern answer to every dog "problem", even when there isn't a problem!  This puppy is far too young to be presenting a high sex drive <G>

Castration should never be done lightly and rarely "cures" the reasons for vet recommendations such as "bonking" due to dominance/aggressive tendencies.  Usually if these are *genuine* issues the dog has already acquired and learnt that behaviour hence castration makes NO difference whatsoever - step in the behaviourist , blah blah blah .............

As to A's castration success story, congrats, but there's nothing to say that after the "takes about 6 months for the effects" your Cairn would not have outgrown the trait anyway, had he been given the chance.

Forget the "snip" - and set about focusing your BABY puppy's attention on other things :-)

Teri 

Most dogs do out grow the bonking stage, it is part of their natural development and if it is causing problems can be stopped. There are a few dogs who get away without any effect at all from being castrated but very few, the thing is either the owner does not know what the dog would be like if it had been allowed to grow to full maturity and has nothing to compare the dog now, to how it may have been. If as can happen the early castration causes problems in latter life the fact that the dog was once complete slips the mind of the owner and the problems they are encountering are not blamed on the dogs lack of a hormonal system.

But as with all things the dog is your property and your responsibility so you are free to do as you think best, personal I have castrated once and would never ever do it again except for immediate health reasons, having had a bad experience I am not prepared to repeat it

Teri
'Forget the "snip" - and set about focusing your BABY puppy's attention on other things'
Andi
I would like to see you focusing any 'in tact' dogs attention on other things when he gets a wiff of a bitch in season and then makes her pregnant and we are talking about dogs, not 'babies' dogs of 4 months upwards not 9 weeks as you mentioned yours was.
Teri
'This puppy is far too young to be presenting a high sex drive'
Andy
At 4 months it is quite normal for a pup to be showing this sort of sex drive.
Teri
'"bonking" due to dominance/aggressive tendencies'
Andi
This is, as mentioned above 'sex drive' pure and simple, it is not caused by dominance or aggressive tendencies.
Teri
'Your Cairn would have outgrown the trait anyway'
Andi
Sex drive is not a trait it is very normal, natural behaviour, and the leg, cushion, bed, neighbour hugging was getting progressively worse it was unlikely to get better as the dog matured. Castration has made him a much happier, contented little dog

A

Andi, wish I understood your post would you try again please.

Me too <LOL>

Jackie H
I was responding to some of the comments Teri made in her last post.
A

Understand that but I still am not sure what point you are making or perhaps you are not making a point but agreeing, please clarify.

<<Sex drive is not a trait it is very normal, natural behaviour, and the leg, cushion, bed, neighbour hugging was getting progressively worse it was unlikely to get better as the dog matured. >>

This behaviour is indeed normal, and it is also normal for it (if not controlled) to get worse as the pup reaches adolescence. Once the dog is mature it generally subsides to a prepubescent level - without the need for castration.
:)

Thing is Andi at 6 months he will have barely started puberty, and he would likely have grown out of that behaviour in around 6 months anyway, whether castrated or not.

A pup  bred was castrated that young for that reason, and he still wanted to mate his in season mohter 12 months later, much to his owners surprise and embarrasment.

He still likes to hump things and other dogs.

Hi Brainless, I have seen castrates being more of a nuisance to bitches than their entire counterparts too <LOL>

Hi again Andi,
I'm sure your intentions were good when you had your Cairn done and, like I said, congratulations that your dog's "problem" has disappeared.  I still stand by the fact that IMO you have no evidence to prove that this was due to castration - but so long as you're happy and, more importantly your dog has not suffered any adverse affects, then fair enough :-)

Having lived my life with entire males I'm more than capable of posting an informed opinion on what constitutes "normal" behaviour and at what stage a particular behaviour has the potential to become a problem.  At four months this IS a "baby" puppy - ie. immature, both physically and mentally, if exact phrasing is preferable.

A four month puppy is not displaying <"sex drive" pure and simple> any more than it is displaying it's future intentions to kill everything that moves by shredding it's toys or rough playing with it's four legged friends!

At no point did I refer to sex drive being a trait, merely such a young puppy's random "bonking" being one :-)  In the absence of meeting this young pup personally, it is impossible for anyone other than the original poster to establish whether <"it was getting progressively worse"> and all any of us can do is provide advice based on a) the information provided, and b) our own experiences -  hopefully helping this pup's owners reach the best decision for the puppy.  We will quite rightly have different opinions and experiences - it's just not everyone decides to live their lives based on what a behaviourist or vet has to say. 

I believe castration should be used only as a last resort unless it is for specific medical reasons - and think it's a disgrace that in this day and age so many vets and trainers routinely recommend this operation on young puppies as a quick fix.   Thank God they haven't reached the stage of recommending whipping all their teeth out to stop play biting and chewing shoes or colostomies to simplify house breaking - all so much easier than patience, understanding dog behaviour, natural development and ongoing training after all.

Teri

Wait until your dog is at least one year - 18 months old if possible unless there are overwhelming environmental reasons like an intact bitch at home etc etc etc.

Even bitches bonk, just distract etc; we have all been through it.

Interested to read this thread as Sparky was castrated last year on the advice of the vet (though I'm lately becoming more and more suspicious of their motives) and also the trainer who runs our obedience club. He had started to get so fixated with bonking that we were losing his training completely, and I was so scared of him running off on us. I had no intentions of breeding, but what swayed it for me was an argument put forward about testicular cancer, and how castration could prevent it. As a first time dog owner, I took the advice given without question. Sparky didn't lose any "bounce", and is a happy, healthy dog with a lovely nature, but I do think we rushed into the decision because we were so anxious to do our best for him at the time. Not sure it was the right one, or that he would have been any different if we hadn't done it. This time round, with our second pup, I will definitely wait before rushing into any decision, as a year on I feel in a better position to make a more informed choice. Sparky did grow out of the bonking, but still has a go when play gets too exciting for him. He gets a taste of his own medicine now, though, as Busby is already following in his big brother's footsteps at 8 weeks ;).

I think unfortunately this is one of those threads that everybody feels very passionate about.  I waited 18 months until we considered it with our dog and only then did we do it when it was realised that it would work and has done.  He has lost none of his character at all.  I am not saying I will do it will all dogs and I think each decision has to be made for each individual dog.  If its necessary then so be it, if not then don't do it for the sake of it.

Claire

Thanks for all the replies, I think my main concern is that he is a very confident puppy with other dogs and this may lead to fights in the future (if other dogs aren't happy with his dominant behaviour). I am not so worried about him humping funiture etc, but he does it to other dogs and I thought this was a way of trying to dominate them. Would castrating help deal with the dominance thing?

No. So-called 'dominance' is a behavioural (mental) thing. Neutering only alters hormonal things (and not always for the better). One of my spayed bitches humps her brother (who gets cross and tells her off so she stops) after supper. She never used to hump till she was spayed (at 6 years old).

Neutering most certainly can affect dominance and aggression issues. I've seen dramatic contrast with some of my own past dogs. One, a GSD was extremely dog to dog aggressive. When he got neutered, he turned around 180 degrees. Here's something that may help you.

http://www.geocities.com/amazonadoc/ETDR/health/spayinfo.html

Carrie

I'd agree there, since my last post to this thread we are constantly having to distract Sparky away from the new pup and limit their play even more than we were doing, as he tries to hump him the minute I look away. It's as if he wants to show him whose boss after putting up with Busby trying it on with him.

Yes, dominance is a behavior, mental thing, but it's in many, many areas...influenced by hormones. They act on the brain via the pituitary. If left intact for a long time and then you neuter, any undesireable habits inherent with being intact are likely to remain because the brain has developed those pathways to promote those habits.

I guess for me it's the health thing, behavioral thing (especially with a male Doberman) and the risk of unwanted pregnency. I just won't mess with that risk. Male dogs can be unbelievably persistant about running off to find a female. I'd have to have an 8 foot fence to keep my Doberman in and I won't do it. I like how my dogs stick around close and have no interest in going to find a date.

Carrie

I don't really like castration as a means to stop behaviour issues in puppies.  The pup just needs to learn some respect and manners - that humping is unacceptable.  If puppies are castrated too young they don't mature properly because the Testosterone has been taken away.  If I were you,  I'd focus on stopping it.

I would definitely agree training is the way to go in the first instance. If there's no improvement at 9 or 10 months then I might reconsider.
:)

Hi I had my Staffie castrated two years ago for health reasons. It has made absolutely NO difference to his character or personality, weight gain or humping efforts. He regularly tries to hump my girl, she isnt bothered by it, and neither are we! I read somewhere a study on castration (sorry cant remember where) and they found no evidence that it stopped humping, roaming or aggressive behaviour. However I have heard that it can help prevent prostate problems in the future, so I would consider it when your pup is a bit older.

Actually, the latest evidence is that, although there are more cases of general prostate problems in entire dogs, the percentage of malignant prostate cancers is higher in castrated dogs.

Very true.  Although castrating will prevent testicular cancer the rates of prostate cancer are significantly higher in castrated dogs than in entire dogs.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Funny how the vets, trainers et al never point to that scenario when persuading everyone they meet to castrate their new puppies!  But of course they don't warn about any of the numerous side effects of spaying bitches either.

Nor do they seem to mention the risk of anaesthetic for "ops of convenience"   :-(

Teri