Hi all!  Maybe I'm using a boring mix but Lana will not eat her veggies!  Best chance I have is when they are mixed in with some pilchards but even then it put's her off!  I usually blend them together with a bit of water until its like a veggie soup but this just seems to ruin her meal :rolleyes:  If I steam them, say with our Sunday lunch, then I mix some with a bit of naturediet - but she is able to eat everything but the veg!!!  Anyone got any tips?  I usually use broccoli, carrots, courgettes, cucumber, tomato, garlic - that sort of thing really :)  Curious to know what veggie selection everyone else uses...
Sarah

I use my blender to blend whatever cheap veg are in Tescos at the time ..and then bag them up into daily portions .....just defrost them and mix them in with my two's meat. At the moment we are on greens and brocolli :D

Oh and I serve them raw :)

I do the same but I blend loads of different vegs with offal...freeze them in portions and then defrost and feed
Archer

I put mine throught he juicer, then stir the pulp back in.....  Maybe it's the added water she doens't like?  Perhaps you could steam them, then liquidise them?

Do dogs actually need to eat veg, if not why try to make her eat something she does not like, any good quality food should supply all that she needs and should then be hassle free for both you and the bitch. Most veg is water and fibre so although we need the fibre I am not at all sure a dog does, but guess someone who has studied canine nutrition will tell me why I should be feeding it but I don't except as a treat of raw carrot or fruit.

Hi Jackie - I'm no expert but I am offering fruit/veg in small amounts every now and then as part of a natural diet, the aim is to mimic a carcass/kill by providing raw meaty bones, offal, muscle meat and stomach/intestinal contents (hence the fruit and veg aspect of the diet.)  of course I can't provide a 'balanced' meal in one go (can't even do that for myself!) but I try and balance it over a period of about two weeks.  If I fed a raw carrot (and she ate it!) it would come out the same way it went in, because dog's cannot break down cellulose - the ultimate aim is to provide a small amount of broken down fruit + veg which the wild dog would consume in natural conditions.  If I can find a food item from this group that she will enjoy then we should both be happy :)  With a few tips from the chamdoggers I may get there :D  Rather that than some cereal biscuit, coloured green and shaped like a pea :D
Sarah

What is in cooked liquidised veg that mimics the content of a pray animals stomach content? I mean what element is it that requires the feeding of vegetables that can't be provided in some other way and I did not suggest or mean dyed biscuit that achieves nothing except make the owner feel better and I am wondering if feeding veg amounts to much the same thing and the required or missing elements could be presented to the dog in a more palatable form, after all does not Naturediet already have veg added and is it not reckoned to be a complete food.

Not quite sure what sticking it in the blender and chopping it up is going to do to break down cellulose. I'd have though all that would happen would be to feed smaller pieces of cellulose.

In the case of eating the kill the veg would be in the killed animal's stomach and would have already been at least partly broken down by the digestive juices of that animal.

I know nothing about BARF diets, never having fed them but know a little simple chemistry and to me this seems a waste of time. It will not have the desired effect.

Regards, John

As I understand it, cooking and/or liquidising breaks down the cell wall, which is what the digestive system of the canine finds difficult......

Has anyone else found that adding veg to there dogs diet gives their dogs the runs, I have tried BARF but did not trust myself to be able to balance the diet I feed offal, Tripe etc. and a wholemeal biscuit, as part of there diet but the veggy bit just imbalances everything and I end up with the same problem, so gave up and they are very healthy without the veg.

Hi Britney - I think there is too much of an obsession with 'balancing', we humans rarely eat the correct balance in one meal so why should we try so hard to achieve the same for our dog's?  We should balance the diet over a period of a couple of weeks!  I guess if you feed too much veg it would promote runny poo's - veg should only make up a small % of the diet rather than present in all meals?!
Sarah

Which is how I understand it Digger?!  Jackie, I do not feed naturediet as a rule - I feed raw.  Naturediet is a close second IMHO in case of emergency (ie: one of us forgets to take something out of the freezer) and therefore I usually have a couple of packs on standby!  As Digger has already mentioned there are apparently way's to break down cell walls in veggies, in herbivores (as I understand) amylase is present in the saliva, where break down begins (canines do not have this ability) - as well as other adaptations to cope with cellulose.  With the BARF diet the recommendation is to include a small % of veggie matter for the reasons I have already mentioned previously.  This is not cooked veg Jackie, it is sometimes steamed veg (after all the inside of a prey animal isn't room temp.) but usually blended raw veg.  I am not trying to force large amounts of veg down my dog's neck however :D  - merely after advice on how other raw feeders prepare their veg %
Sarah

Can't see the reason for feeding veg to a dog who does not like it in the first place, if a dog enjoys crunching on raw veg or eating berries and fruit then that is fine, it does them little or no good as far as nutrition is concerned but no harm either. If you wish to copy the content of an animals stomach content then you should be stirring the veg along with a few grubs, worms and insects in stomach acid and bile, not forgetting that there should also be fur and flesh in some cases. Why not see if you can get and feed whole rabbit or chicken once or twice a week.

The dogs in the wild are eating digested food from the stomach and intestine, it is the broken down chemicals that is required not the broken down food, when this raw feeding moved from going to the slaughter house and collect a sheep's head or bucket of tripe or lungs there seems to have grown up some strange rituals almost like a religion, I know you can no longer get the protein part of your dogs diet for yourselves and have to rely and trust someone else so why not trust someone else to provide the extras required when you only feed raw protein, forget the disliked veg.

It is only over the last 15 or so years that people have been so concerned with the dogs food what ever happened to throwing them a lump of animal protein and a handful of meal, dogs always managed to thrive and work on that sort of diet and would grab the odd addition whilst out in the field or being exercised. 

Think all this stressing to feed something that the dog does not like pointless, like insisting a child eats sprouts or nothing, you don't do it, you find a replacement.

I agree with this. Dogs in the wild get veg sources from the stomachs of the animal that they have killed. Dogs being carivores kill herbivores ( plant eating animals) thus get the nutients that are found in vegetables that way. My vet and breeder told me to include some cooked veg once or twice a week but NOT raw as they cannot digest them properly.

Liquidising won't break down the cellulose of the cell wall to any great extent. That has to be done chemically (by digestive enzymes) because we are talking microscopically small, which domestic kitchen equipment cannot achieve. Chunks of veg go in and come out as chunks. Pureed veg goes in and comes out as puree - you just don't notice the puree ...

Agreed, in an ideal situation!  I believe 'raw feeders' have their own way's of preparing veg, from blending to freezing or ideally juicing and then feeding the pulp.  Its fair to say most veggies would lose alot af valuable nutrients (dependant on preparation) but it should be remembered by those that feed them that they oxidise quickly.  I still believe that they can provide vits and mins as well as ess. fatty acids to dog's.
Sarah

Freezing does though, as far as i know! (break down cell walls)

I blend and then freeze all my veg.

In any case, blending is better than not blending, because blending can pulp veg far better than a dogs teeth can.

Em

Yes, freezing will break down cellulose. Merely blending raw veg won't.
:)

Freezing and liquidising will both break down some, but not all cell walls - if freezing broke down ALL cells walls, you'd end up with a mush- and like wise, if liquidising didn't break down some cells walls, you'd end up with the same solid object you put in there.........  It's the cell walls that hold the thing together.....

Yep, if you slow-freeze fruit and veg without blanching and chilling, you get a mush ... have you ever seen frozen-and-thawed strawberries? Yuech!
:)

Looks like all you expert canine nutritionalists have answered the question in an expert fashion...for anybody who asks why this/that/the other I`d suggest you look to other boards that have the knowledge to answer any questions posed with scientific backup. Google`s a good place to start :D :D

Christine, Spain.

Anyway, just really after idea's which hopefully can be generated by hearing what others feed and how (as per origional question :D)
Sarah

Oops, bit of a digression there!

Well, hunger is a great condiment, so id first start with a hungry dog!

My dogs and i suspect most, are not fans of bitter flavours, or dry crumbly textures, so you want to make it sweeter and wetter (oil or water).

I try to balance out bitter stuff (spinach, spring greens, cabbage etc) with sweeter stuff (carrots, apple, tomatoes, peppers).

I also add either olive oil, or avocado, and whichever herbs i have (my dogs like dill, thyme, basil and garlic), and make sure its pretty runny.

Another thing that helped my friend get her pup to eat veg, was competition! She brought her pup Leela round here every day for a couple of weeks, for her tea...... there is nowt like three greedy pigs to get a pup to eat up fast! (obviously i can do this because none of mine are dodgy around their food with other dogs).

HTH

Em

It's amazing how a simple question can start a debate isn't it? :D

Back to your question .... How many different veggies and fruits do you mix in at once?  Could you try one at a time to find out which ones she likes and which she doesn't and then forget about the ones she's not keen on for a while. Bess loves certain ones and wont touch others, for instance I can give her some grated carrot and she'll scoff it by itself but she wont eat bananas at all. She's even choosy about which types of lettuce she'll eat if I give her an odd leaf to chomp on!  She used to hate peas but likes them now as she has frequent opportunity to try them when they get dropped at the table and roll on the floor :D so if there's anything she doesn't like you could casually chuck her a bit now and again to see if she's changed her mind. :)

Kath.
Edited to say, although I use the food proccessor to do her veggies, I also give a bit grated and as chunks for variety as it seems to keep her keener. ;)

Hi Kath :)  Cheers for the advice - I think Em has also touched on something there about bitter veg.  I guess most of what I offer tends to be the bitter stuff as its what we eat most with our meals!!  Good idea though to just experiment and see what she does like (makes perfect sense to me :D) starting with the more pleasant stuff :)
Thanks guy's
Sarah :)

Its an Afghan you have isnt it ?  If memory serves me correct Afghans are about as fussy as my current breed the Irish Setter :rolleyes:

With Fagan I tried mixing in blended defrosted veggies and half the time he would turn his nose up at them, I now mix in a powder called "Greens" (I think :D ) and occasionally keepers mix from Dorwest Herbs, it has all the nutrition of the veggies (now someone tell me im wrong ;) ) without the hassle.  I do try to feed Fagan fruit and veg occasionally but he is just not interested - I might try the idea of blending it with the offal though that "might" make him eat it - I dont hold out any hope though :D :D :D

(I also feed naturediet when I forget to take his food out of the freezer - or when we are camping or Fagan goes to stay with my mum or the dog sitter :) )

When we had an Afghan - all she'd eat for a bit was Stilton cheese.   Got a bit pricey!    You could try mixing the veg with yogurt and leave it to 'soak' for a short while.

Or mixing it with Stilton..........(!)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I have just gone over to raw meat, bones etc, but reading all this it seems I am doing it all wrong.  I don't have a liquidiser, so I have been cooking chopped up greens, carrots, cauliflower, peas, beans etc in water in a saucepan a couple of times a week.  Then I give each dog a handful of this cooked veg with raw tripe, a tiny bit of wholemeal biscuit meal, cod liver oil and vetzymes once a day.  For their breakfast they have chicken wings.  Can someone tell me if I have been wasting my time as it now seems that dogs can't get any goodness from veg unless it is liquidised.  Just for the record, it does not go through them as far as I can see.  They are pooing a lot less as well.  I want to get it right though, otherwise I am just wasting my time and money (it costs more than the complete food they were having because I can't at the moment buy chicken wings anywhere other than the supermarket).

All food loses some of its goodness when cooked, hence one of the reasons those of us feed raw, apart from obviously being species appropriate.

If you feed raw tripe there is IMHO no need to give veggies with it.

Wholemeal biscuit meal is superfluous to dog's requirements as there is no proven need for carbohydrates in a dog's diet and once again this is not raw it is cooked.

Cod liver oil is generally not recommended for daily use as it contains fat soluble vitamins A & D which can be stored in the liver and can be dangerous in excess.  If you are feeding raw eggs, tinned or fresh mackeral, sardines or pilchards and liver on a weekly basis there is no need for CLO unless they are seeing no daylight.

You would be better off giving Fish Body Oil and Vitamin E.

If you get on the Britbarf yahoo site they have a list of raw suppliers, and Prize choice do chicken wings and so do farm shops and poultry wholesalers you will find in the yellow pages.

Veggies are a "nice to have" addition to the food pyramid and should make up no more than 10% of the total diet at the most.

Thanks very much for your help Tohme

I started to give the cod liver oil for the vit D to aid the absorption of the calcium from the bones.  Years ago when feeding meat/meal mixtures it was normal to give calcium and cod liver oil, so I thought I was doing the correct thing.  But I will certainly substitute raw (whole?) eggs as you suggest.   I gave the veg because I thought it was an essential part of the BARF diet, and also because one of my bitches frantically eats grass (always has done), and so I thought it would be good for her to have some veg.  I have tried local chicken places, but have been quoted about £1 per lb for wings, so it is cheaper to buy them at Tesco.  Also, as my only dog freezer is jam packed with 200lb of tripe, I don't have room for a load of chicken wings.  I am having a shed built at the moment where I can put two dog freezers, one for meat and one for chicken wings (when I find a local supplier who sells them for a reasonable price). 

I only give the biscuit meal to bulk out the food a bit, they were wolfing it down in seconds and looking at me for more.

Most of the bone problems in the past were due to supplementation with calcium etc.  If you are feeding RMBs no supplementation is necessary as chicken wings in particular have the correct calcium:phosphorus ratio.  If they are getting adequate sunshine, eggs and say live yoghurt no supplementation with Vitamin D is necessary.

Whole eggs including the shell are fine for dogs; it is natural for dogs to eat quickly, they are hard wired to gobble food in order to stop anyone else getting it :D

Thanks again Tohme

Right - I will use up the biscuit and then buy no more.  From now on they will have a couple of eggs each evey week and the odd tin of pilchards!  I think I may carry on giving some veg though - as long as they are digesting it cooked and chopped.

Just one thing, is this diet OK for bitches in whelp and when feeding a litter (you can tell I guess that for several years I have been using complete foods, and it is quite hard to trust that a home-mixed blend will have adequate amounts of the essential minerals etc that the food manufacturers have convinced us can only be obtained through buying from them).

Yes it is fine to wean puppies straight onto raw food and it is fine for bitches in whelp.  Grow your puppies with bones by Ian Billingshurst is an excellent source of information re feeding the stud dog, brood bitch and puppies and has a wealth of information re skeletal diseases etc.

I would recommend that you join Britbarf yahoo group for more info.

Remember that animals in the wild grow to their optimum size without the need for supplementation or puppy/junior or breed specific foods!

I always recommend that prior to starting on raw feeding one should read as widely as possible in order to obtain a full understanding of the nutritional needs of a dog and the source of the nutrients required.

Hi Tohme, have always respected that when it comes to nutrition you know what you are talking about but some of the things you say is total different from nutritional requirements given in my books. Have things changed that much, for example I have just picked up one that says that the canine digestion can handle most foods apart from some plant materials such as cellulose. It goes on to state that as omnivores the digestive system requires the following - polysaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides, protein & neutral fat, the first three being as you will know carbohydrates (starch, sucrose & glucose). On top of those 3 items they require minerals and vitamins in varying amounts all of which can be found in a diet containing meat, dairy produce, offal, cereals, fish and if offal is missing or short then legumes and green vegetables can help make up the deficit but can be managed without in a mixed and varied diet, some cellulose is required, not for nutrition but to help prevent stomach problems such as diarrhoea and constipation it can also help to act as a bulking agent.

Carbohydrates are required for readily available energy although starches require cooking, monosaccharides and disaccharides do not. It also states that fat is required particularly for pups and lactating bitches and forms an important part of a dogs energy source. It goes on with details of essential fatty acids and the required amounts but basically it says that the 3 major components of a canine diet should be Carbohydrates, Fats & Proteins. Are my books wrong, most are over 20 years old so they may be, if so can you advise a useful book for me to purchase, I am not interested in anyone's theory but in the proven findings of the requirements of a good sustaining diet for dogs.

Why Jackie?

If you are happy with what you are feeding your dogs now, why do you even want to find out about vegetables etc in diet?

It's always nice to learn things, Melody, even if you don't intend to use the knowledge.
:)

and your name is Jackie?

OooOOOooo! Sorry! I thought it was a general conversation. I'm interested in this sort of thing too, though I may not want to follow the regime. :(

As you ask Melodysk, because I do not consider that I will ever know even 1% of what there is to know, so if I think someone can help me learn I will ask. Surprised you should even have to ask, do you not try to get things clear when there seems to be a conflict and you believe that there is someone who may give you the benefit of an unbiased opinion.

I simply wondered Jackie :) Thank you for the answer ...you have always appeared to be a bit anti BARF ..not sure if that is so or not ..just the way it sometimes comes across...so I thought I would ask if there was a particluar reason for you asking :) I appreciate the answer cheers

Why the MelodySK ? Usually it is Mel

;)

No I am not anti any sort of feeding as long as it does not amount to cruelty, either to the dog or the person trying to follow it to the letter. Have looked into BARF and several other of the feeding theories that people have come up with from time to time and find that as far as I am concerned that most are based on a false premise. Never the less providing people feed a mixed diet they will not do the dog much harm but feeding only muscle meat and bone or only protein would cause damage within a short time.

No idea why not Mel, expect I did not wish to cause further offence as it appeared you were put out by my post anyway.

For every piece of literature there is to support one view there is another to support a contradicting one :D

I always refer to nature, the dog was designed as a carnivore; we know this by many of its physical features:

A dog has few facial muscles in order to allow for a large mouth size in relation to its head and is equipped with jaws that move up and down with very little transverse motion.

Its incisors are short and pointed with long, sharp and curved canines and sharp, jagged molars because unlike herbivores it does not chew its food but swallows it whole.  There are no carbohydrate digestive enzymes in its saliva and it has a large, simple stomach (60 - 70% of the total volume of its digestive tract), with a ph less than or equal to 1 and a short small intestine (3 - 6 times body length) and a short and smooth colon. 

All of this information tells us categorically that it is not equipped to metabolise efficiently carbohydrates.

In the wild the dog eats small rodents, birds, scavenges dead kill etc it does NOT graze on domesticated grain or have access to cooked domesticated grain.  And in fact dogs were created prior to the domestication of grain and its processing.

To argue that a dog needs carbohydrates as provided via cereals in commercial dog food is as facile as to argue that horses/cows/sheep require meat.  Each of these animals has been designed to process a certain type of intake and we meddle with this at our peril!

I am not sure when the books you refer to were written or by whom but you cannot argue with nature.

If the dog was designed to process grains it would have been equipped so to do; it has not and lacks the tools to with which to do so.

<<it does NOT graze on domesticated grain >>

Tell that to my lot, tohme! It's quite embarrassing watching them biting off the ripe ears of wheat and munching them.

Well yes of course they snack and "treat" on it, just as they do on various types of manure etc however that does not mean it should or would form a staple part of their diet.................

>> For every piece of literature there is to support one view there is another to support a contradicting one <<

Even educational ones? Well may be but I do consult several.

>> I always refer to nature, the dog was designed as a carnivore; we know this by many of its physical features: <<

Ah well now here we can't agree, I do not believe creatures are designed and I do not believe that dogs are any more carnivores than we are, now cats I would agree.

Would still be interested in the books you have studied.

Sorry Jackie - but that is absolutely ridiculous!  Dogs are casually referred to as Omnivores...They are carnivores - not 'true' carnivores like cats (difference being dependence on thiamine - correct me if I'm wrong) but carnivores nonetheless.  Just look at the difference between their's and our's dentition.  We can chew meat but we dont have carnassial molars - you know, the specific meat shearing teeth that dog's have - If you do not like the word designed swop it for adapted - Dogs are adapted to kill and to eat meat they have very acidic stomachs and none existent caecum!!  YES dog's are more adapted to eat meat than we are - and if you cant see that I can no longer respect your opinion on this thread!!!!
Sarah
PS Check that the author of any books are not being endorssed by pedigree as is clearly the case in the doglopaedia by Kay White!!!!

No Rosser I am referring to veterinary books and a number of scientific papers. But would have thought that anyone living with dogs for a short time would be aware that they are opportunist feeders. The dentition you describe is also similar to that of the Badger and the Pig are they designed to eat only meat.

Not very interested if you have respect for my opinion or not but for those who really wish to know the background of their dogs diet there is an interesting an little known science who's name escapes me, think it may be scatology. It is the study of poo, both fresh and old, some even prehistoric and some of the poo studied is fossilised. Anyway it is possible to study not only what is being eaten now in the wild but also what was being eaten thousands of years ago. Today it is possible to carbon date to establish how old the sample is, dna test to know what animal passed it, it is even possible, apparently, to tell if a sample taken from the stool has been through 1 digestive system or 2, if the latter then it comes from a prey animal if the first the animal its self ate it. Anyway that available material apart, by studding animals both domestic and in the wild it can be seen that dogs eat, from the hedgerows and wind falls, rotting vegetation and carrion, grain and grubs, droppings from ruminate animals, eggs and any prey they can catch all that is there to be seen but it is also true that from the ancient poo samples it has always been thus. Domestic dog will add discarded pizzas, burger buns and chips given half a chance to say nothing of raiding the bird table.  You may think of that as the palate of a true carnivore I consider it that of an omnivore however that is unimportant, what  is important is that anyone thinking a dog a carnivore feeds that dog only flesh based protein, a dog fed thus would become ill and unable to rest properly.

Now I do not ask you to believe me you can do the research for yourself if you are interested you can also get details of studies to see what sort of food is required by different sorts of animals if they are to maintain a normal life style, most are pretty forgiving of errors and mistakes but a few Minerals & Vitamins can't be obtained from eating animal protein alone. Never the less most dogs will cope well providing they receive a varied diet or can find for themselves items they are missing, think people should feed in the manner that suits them but I find it sad to hear of people who have been persuaded that they need to feed chopped, steamed or frozen vegetables to a dogs that does not want to eat them when a small amount relaxation from the laid down rules would make both dog and owner a good deal happier.

I found that reply very interesting and very informative ...until the last bit ;) It isn't *sad* that someone has been *persuaded that they need to feed chopped, steamed or frozen vegetables to a dogs that does not want to eat them *

If you read the boards (and I know you do) there are FAR more people trying to get their dogs to eat various types of complete *What can I add to it* *Why won't he/she eat it* etc etc

So many people have been persuaded that the only thing their dog should eat comes out of a package and has additives ;)

I let Hudson and Delta eat bits n bobs that are leftover ..that includes the occasional bits of rice, sandwiches, pizza , potatoes, stuffing etc etc ..personally don't think it does them any harm at all. Delta has stripped my plum tree so she likes most anything. I consider dogs to be omnivores with a heavy leaning towards carniverous behaviour ..can't back it up with any science or papers or books though ...just healthy dogs :) There again, lots of people feed complete and have healthy dogs as well.

Mine have raw meaty bones and raw minced meat, eggs, fish (fresh) and so on.

NOT picking a fight at all ...nor am I saying one method is better than any other ..after all, if ain't broke, why fix it?

Just that, when using a *new method* people are sometimes stricter than when they have been doing something for a while. Have to say that my two never notice the vegetables.....and yet Hudson used to be SUCH a fussy dog. If they developed a huge aversion to them I would probably drop the veg from the food ....

>> people trying to get their dogs to eat various types of complete <<

The same applies Mel, why stress about what should be a pleasurable experience, as long as people do not consider that because dogs like flesh that is all they need then I have no problem with people feeding as they and their dogs wish.

PS: have to say with my present breed I have yet to find something that they wont eat, even things that are not food. But when I had rescue GSD's through my hands it was a very different story and if you got it wrong you were the one to suffer. (all that cleaning up after them :( )

:D :D I know what you mean about trying to find something they WON'T eat :D Delta is a gannet in dogs clothing ;) Hudson is slightly more picky though