I wonder if anyone has any advice for this common problem, we have just got a dobey x German shepherd girl, 6 months old and very playful. She loves people to bits, very bouncy and enthusiastic. Also she is fine off the lead in the park and just messes around with us and has a good time. But her problem is other dogs.  Even if she hears a dog barking in the distance she will bark, if passing them when they are on the other side of the road she barks very loud and growls. But today while off the lead in the park another dog approached and she ran after it barking. We called her back and she obeyed for a while, then ran again for the dog quite aggressively. My boyfriend got her by the collar and was putting her lead back on and the bulldog actually came over to her just to say hello and she went for it! She is learning commands and is very intelligent, we just need to control this problem while she's still a pup. Any ideas?

Firstly, in future, never take her out without a muzzle (There's another thread about muzzling dogs with instructions on how to introduce her to the muzzle with as little stress as possible)
Secondly you really need some 'hands on' advice to analyse *why* your dog is behaving as she is.  There may be something in her background (which I assume you aren't aware of) that leads her to behave this way.......  Please ask your vet to give her a thourough examination to eliminate any physcial reasons, then ask for a referral to a member of the APDT who does behaviour work, or a member of the UKRCB.

Firstly I would advise you not to let your dog off lead in public places if you have only just got her. Even if she was not barking at other dogs you need a 100% recall at 6 months to be able to let any dog off lead that you have only just got.

I would also do some very basic heelwork training making her concentrate on you whenever another dog is seen(rewarding good behaviour with rewards) Also at home I would do heelwork training OFFLEAD as this again will mean she has to concentrate on you correctly to get her rewards

GSDs play quite roughly & do a lot of neck grabbing & charging especially as they are growing up(had in the past the bruises on my legs from being knocked into by young GSDs playing). They make noises that sound like growling when in fact it is not. A true threat from a GSD is when they drawe back their lips showing all the teeth not just a rumbling noise. This can be a threat without any growling at all. A serious attack can be completely silent with just body language being shown

Dobermanns can also be vocal in my experience & rough in their play.

As a long time GSD owner/trainer I think the barking is a GSD trait-they are very vocal breed & not all barking at other dogs is agressive It simply be dog language(about to be shot down by those who believe in Behaviourists sorry I'm a Dog Trainer(NOT a behaviourist)of only 46 years hands on experience)

Before rushing off to spend lots of dosh on vets & behaviourists try local dog training classes. Go to the class initially without your dog so you can see what type of training is carried out & also chat to the trainers about your dogs needs

I would NOT muzzle her as this can give you a false sense of security, it can also mean that she will be avoided by other dog owners & might lead to her jumping up at small dogs scooped up by owners at the sight of a fairly large dog in a muzzle-their body language will be defensive & could lead to her reacting badly to them.

No, you cannot control other dogs behaviours, therefore you must at least consider muzzling her - for their protection and proof that you take ownership responsibly.  Her behaviour has already shown that she is a liability even when on the lead :(

Well we must agree to disagree I had to retrain a rescue Dobermann that was behaving exactly as this bitch is & was actually worse when wearing a muzzle-instead we taught him to concentrate on his handler using titbits & toys(sorry I'm not a clicker person) using a training club, training whilst out walking when other dogs were around & home training off lead for heelwork. He eventually ignored other dogs & had a circle of canine friends with whom he played happily. but he was never off lead if strange dogs(ie dogs not known to his handler)were around. This was a 4 year old rescue male & with a little hard work & an owner who was consistent with him he ended up a reliable dog

Your experiences might be different & you may have more experience than me in dealing with this behaviour & mix of breeds. How would you deal with her if she continued to behaviour like this with the muzzle on & there is no muzzle in existance that a dog cannot escape from should it choose to do. Wearing a muzzle whilst out is treated by the GP as admitting your dog is a danger to them & their dogs

It is of course just IMVHO of how this dog should be dealt with

I would recommend the training of your dog to focus on you on command. So when she sees another dog and you ask for her eye contact, she does so and it diverts her attention onto you.

You do this with special, not your every day run of the mill treats. Teach her first with no distractions. Hold the treat up by your face and give a command such as "watch" or "look" or whatever. Just use the same word each time. When she makes eye contact, give the treat. Watching you = treat/praise. Then when she's doing this consistantly, introduce a small distraction, not the kind that gets her crazy. Then gradually add more....let her see a dog from a distance, not so close that she goes nuts, but that she can see it a little. Intercept her before she gets bonkers, if you can. "Watch." If she does, big praise and treats. Baby steps.

Practice other obedience skills too. Teach her that you and your requests (commands) are to be respected. And that focusing should help her to eventually lose interest in acting aggressively as she sees that there's a bigger payoff by listening to you. I would also tell her "no" when she doesn't listen. Then when she averts her eyes back to you, praise. Show her the difference of what you don't like and what you do.

It may boil down to the possibility/probability that she wasn't dog socialized enough as a younger pup. So, hopefully you can find a dog or two that she likes and can get the idea that dogs are all right and can be fun.

If you keep her on a leash while there's any possiblity of coming across other dogs, I don't think you need a muzzle. She has no choice with a muzzle on. She needs to learn to make the RIGHT choice, at least in her mind. But you need to keep control of her with the leash so she doesn't bite anyone.

Carrie

I dont like muzzling dogs. Its wrong imo!!

If you have full control over her, why the need to muzzle, I dont like the fact that the dogs cant pant properly, and can overheat when muzzled.

See an obedience trainer first, and see if you can stop the behaviour then. Before you even consider muzzling!

Good Luck :)

But it  appears these owners do NOT have full control over their dog, who has already exhibited agression towards other dogs - not to suggest a muzzle (a basket type ofcourse, which DOES allow panting and drinking) would be irresponsible of me....

I don't like to see out of control dogs, IMHO if you can't control it you should not own it.

However, I would rather see an OOC dog WITH a muzzle on than without it as at least it demonstrates to me that the owner has made an effort (even if not a complete one) to protect other people's dogs.

It would probably still get a prod from my stick though if it came anywhere near my dogs...................

I don't think anyone LIKES muzzling a dog - but we all have to be responsible for our dogs and as there are obviously issues with training etc here it is at least a measure which can be taken immediately to safe guard others.  Even if help from a good trainer and/or behaviourist goes on to solve the problem it could take weeks, months or maybe more.  In that time this young dog could potentially have caused a lot of damage and his owners be in serious trouble.

There is nothing dangerous about a basket muzzle as regards panting or drinking.   The original poster should be aware of course that a muzzled dog has no means of self-defence if attacked by an aggressive and uncontrolled dog which an irresponsible owner just lets loose without any regard to anyone else.

If only the entire dog-loving world were perfect ;-)  but sadly they ain't! 

If you review the OP's post, she says that the dog was OFF leash when it was out of control. If she puts a leash on the dog, I would think she'd have control. I'm a rather small woman and have a year old Doberman male and I am still stronger than he is. LOL. Thank God he's well behaved and well enough trained to walk properly on a leash now. But, I think as long as a dog is under control with a leash while getting more trained, a muzzle shouldn't be needed. If it is, then use one.

Carrie

You can be responsible with your dogs WITHOUT muzzleing. Who is to say that muzzeling will solve the problem, obviously the dog needs to be socialized with other dogs, under controlled conditions, i.e Obedience training.

I wouldnt say that the owners of this dog are NOT in controll of it, they have said that they now dont let her off the lead, and when she's on a lead, they have the control. So why the need to muzzle. People are too quick to jump to muzzeling, when it should only be used as a last resort.

Thats my opinion anyway!!

Nobody said muzzling would solve the problem, however, it will at least prevent her inflicting too much damage on any dog she takes a dislike to, which it appears she is capable of doing wether on or off the lead,  you do not have to have a lead attached to be in control of your dog, and likewise, having a lead attached doesn't mean you ARE in control........

Hi

Just wanted to say, I have a labradoor and my friend a gsd. Bella the gsd is VERY vocal, not just in play. I have had to learn to look at her bodylanguage and can see its only play!

I'm sorry but when I read this I can't see the dog is out of control. She came when called! The bulldog came to her when she had leash on, and the owner of the bulldog should have taken her/his dog away or at least on a leash before that happen.

I would rather use Moonmaiden's methods than to muzzle. Everyone who see a muzzled dog on the street, will go a long way to stay clear of it. That's exactly what they don't need.

Brave of you to ask doe7337 and good luck with your girl. She's only 6 months old, you'll get there with some hard work!

Exactley - The Bulldog came to her, and her reaction was not that of a dog under control...........

"Everyone who see a muzzled dog on the street, will go a long way to stay clear of it."

I wonder why that is?

Do you think it is because everyone jumps to the conclusion that every dog that wears a muzzle is nasty?

I know several dogs that wear muzzles for other reasons, the main one being that they are inveterate scavengers and wearing a muzzle keeps them safe..................

Some wear them for temporary periods to stop them aggravating a healing wound............

etc etc

I know someone whose dog wears a muzzle in the cold weather because they have an obsession with gloved hands!  He will try and remove gloves from people wearing them!  Not a problem in the summer but you have to make sure you put the gardening gloves away.

I have a 8 month old GSD and she behaves in the same way as yours. I have spent the last 2 months observing her and have noticed that her barking and lunging seems to be attention getting and over enthusiasm for wanting to play and not agression (especially when on the lead). When free in the park she will approach other dogs in a quiet friendly manner but will bark and lunge on lead because she can't get to them. Up to this weekend it was only dogs she barked at but on Sat night we were at my daughters for the evening and on leaving (with the dog on lead) she spotted my son accross the road at his house. She began barking and lunging towards him (this was the first time I had seen her doing this with people). This has convinced me that her behaviour is not agressive as she loves my son to bits and who plays with her for hours when visiting our
house. We attend training classes but it is more to train us rather than the pup as she is so focused on the other dogs that she does not really learn anything. I have always kept her on lead in the park albiet a long line because I thought she was agressive but now I think that she neeeds more play with other dogs so that its not too much of a novelty. 

digger

In my opinion its wrong. Take it or leave it, its up to you, I am saying what I think. :)

Fine, but you haven't posted any real argument to back up your opinion...........

I wasnt aware I HAD to post my arguements when stating my opinion. It is MY opinion, and I DO NOT need to say anymore on the subject, I have said why I think they're wrong, try reading my posts again properly.

Hi Gonzo,

My family used to race Afghans and for the other dogs safety one of ours was muzzled (he was quite competitive ;) ) he wore a wire basket type muzzle in which he could open his mouth wide enough to pant and he could also drink.

HTH

Claire :)

If you're going to post on a public board that you hold a certain belief, how can you expect people to consider your way of thinking, if you can't present a valid argument to support your argument - this is your opportunity to persaude me that muzzles, when correctly used, are wrong......... I am sure there will be plenty of people out there who would be interested.  If it's an opinion you hold, and believe in it that strongly, then there should be some reasons for you to hold that opinion, try taking a step back and listing them for us :)

Doe 7337
is it possible your dog is showing fear aggression? It sounds to me as if ,since she was aggressive when the other dog approaches and is coming when called that this is fear aggression.
If this is the case it is advisable to find a good training class with an understandable trainer and get her mixing with as many other dogs as possible
Archer

Can never understand why people have such a strong reaction to the suggestion that a dog be muzzled and would be interested to know what the reasons are. IMO all dogs should be accustomed to having a muzzle put on and removed, you never know when it may make the difference to someone being able to help your dog or having to leave it to suffer. One of my dogs is very worries at the vets and if I think it will be necessary I put a muzzle on him and he relaxes immediately, would like to know why that is too. Have heard people say that a halti gives a nervous dog confidence, anyone know why.

"I dont like muzzling dogs. Its wrong imo!!

If you have full control over her, why the need to muzzle, I dont like the fact that the dogs cant pant properly, and can overheat when muzzled.

See an obedience trainer first, and see if you can stop the behaviour then. Before you even consider muzzling!

Good Luck  "

This is what I posted earlier on in the thread. This is my opinion on it, just because its not the same as anyone elses, does not make it wrong. Thats what I have to say on the matter (again). I personaly dont like it, as I have said, if you have a problem with me not liking muzzleing MY OWN dogs, thats not really any of your concern, I have given my advice to the poster in question, its up to them whether they take it or not!!! :D

I've never used a muzzle on any of mine (though when I was very young all dogs travelling by train had to travel muzzled in the guard's van), but they can certainly pant while wearing them. All racing greyhounds race in them ...

Gonzo, why do you think they are wrong, do you think they are wrong in all circumstances or just in some and what is your objection to there use as in this case whilst a problem is sorted. Even with the help of the best trainer available it will be some weeks or even months before this dog is safe in public, would you have it kept inside for this time or risk it damaging, perhaps seriously another dog or even a dogs handler.

Jackie,
I think the reason why a halti is said to give a dog confidence is because there is said to be a pressure point on the back of the head where the strap goes. I think the pressure from the strap releases relaxing hormones. Or so i have read anyway. Also another reason is that a dog wearing a halti is deemed to be under the owners control therefore giving the owner confidence, which most likely gives the dog confidence too.

That's a good point Lucy, and IMHO another point for using a muzzle on a such a dog as the OP has.  IT give the owner a chance to relax, knowing the dog can't do any damage, and this reduces the tension which travels so quickly down the lead.

Ok ok so we all have opinions on muzzling but surely what with the dangerous dogs act etc you cant afford to be too careful.  I am sorry but if I felt I just couldnt trust the dog for the moment I would muzzle.  The owner can relax and there is never any prospect of the dog scaring someone.  I know its not aggression towards people but it only takes the wrong sort of person with their beloved dog to take it the wrong way. 

As to a Halti, its right what the poster said about the pressure on the back of the neck but personally I would only use a gentle leader and not a halti.  The halti closes around the mouth as the dog pulls on the lead so that they cant pant, also they have a tendancy to ride up over the muzzle of the dog into their eyes which can cause infection.

Claire

That must be why the muzzle I use on my dog calms him down, it fastens in the same way as a Hallti.

Gonzo,

I can totally understand your concern about the dog not being able to pant as i too have seen distressed dogs with the fabric tupe muzzles on (one Samoyed on a very hot day ) but in some ways this is the fault of trainers and manufacturers not making it very clear that these muzzles are to be used only for a very short space of time.

The open type basket muzzles are not like this at all, and the dog can defiinitely pant and even take small titbits through the muzzle.
Hth :)

Lindsay
X

I'm going to take this in another direction. I tend to think of a muzzle as a last resort. But either way, it's not that big of a deal, so lets not worry about that so much now. Have you taken her to a group puppy obedience class? I think those can do wonders for socializing. There's something different about that setting that seems to work with most dogs. My Doberman is not aggressive to other dogs....loves 'em all, male or female. But when he was younger, he'd be the typical unruly puppy when he saw other dogs. Well, at the class, he straightened right up. Then we went into puppy agility. He was still interested in the other dogs when we'd first enter the class area and on his leash. But when it was time to "work," he'd do what he was suppose to do OFF LEASH even! He'd come, sit, wait, jump go tunnel etc. And I noticed the same thing with all the dogs. No dogs came around to bother us either. It's like they turn on a switch when it's time to work. It just might help. Of course, you'd want to be careful and keep your dog on a leash and some distance from the other dogs if you think it might bite one, but just the exposure and the human's expectations of the dog might do something to instill a sense of responsibility in the dog....Just an idea.

Carrie

I wanted to by a muzzle to prevent one of mine eating things that made her ill on walks.  Sadly none of the muzzles available were any good as the dog could get them off too easily.  Most of them have a longish strap from muzzle to the piece around the muzzle, and a dog can easily flip this over it's head by pawing.  I have used a husher on one of mine and I had to make an extra chin strap to prvent this.  I took a nylon puppy collar cut it in half and sewed a loop in each of the two ends which I slid over the neck strap of the husher (elasticcated muxxle to all intents and purposes) Now I was able to move it right under her chin and fasten it there, so preventing the neck strap from being flipped over the head.  bit like a Horses Bridle.

What worries me about the muzzles I have seen both basket and sleeve type is that they all do up on plastic clips with adjustable straps.  I much prefer the ones I ahve seen on the continet that do up by buckel with holes for adjustment, they also do them in metal basket so much more meant for safety.

You can buy strong leather and metal muzzles in the UK designed for security dog work etc that cannot be taken off.  I can put you in touch with stockists if you wish.................  they are not cheap but they are practically indestructible and I have never seen a dog get them off.

We used a wire type basket muzzle on our afghan, I think it was ordered from a company supplying racing greyhounds accessories.  It had a leather strap with buckle for securing behind the ears, wire going from the muzzle and over the head attaching to the strap (not as awful as it sounds :) )and another leather bit going underneath the muzzle and attaching to the strap.  The muzzle was a life line for that dog, he suffered nervous aggression so we found it handy to use not only for racing (when he would just pick fights ) but also for the vets, or when walking through crowded places especially places where people were likely to run up to him to stroke him (cos being an Afghan he looked nice people wouldnt believe that he might bite )

racing muzzles are of a lighter construction than the heavy duty ones designed to keep the gnashers of continental high drive security dogs from the general public :D

True, you could bend ours to fit perfectly :D

I would hope so too! But the point is that dogs can pant, drink and even eat to a certain extent while wearing a muzzle.
:)

The one I use is a plastic basket type and it does have a plastic buckle but that is adjustable. Found The Sod could flip it over his head too (may be a breed trait - think they should add (& bl**dy minded) to the standard ;) ) any way got over that by linking it to his normal collar.

Well, muzzle or no muzzle, I think the point is...or the important thing is to condition this dog to learn to accept other dogs that he sees to some extent at least. I think it's more important to get to the core problem and try to re-shape his behavior with practice and exposure. If there's a chance that he can get at another dog and bite, well, then...a muzzle would be safest in the meantime while he's learning. Hopefully he can learn to control himself and mind his manners.

Carrie

My dog wears a muzzel, he is very unpredictable when he meets new dogs and he has injured a dog before he wore his muzzel and it cost me a nice vets bill to repay the owner too and what would I rather? use the muzzel and get no vets bill or not use it and risk injuring more dogs and more bills? He was socialised from a very young age and I still socialise him at training but he doesnt seem to be able to read other dogs very well unfortunatly so he will continue to use it untill I am 100% trusting of him which might never be, but believe me every time I pull out his muzzel from the cupboard he goes mad cos he knows it walk time :) so I really dont think he is bothered by it and people were more scared of him before he wore it than they are now :)

Zoe,

I think you're doing the responsible thing if your dog is that unpredictable. It isn't right to let one's dog get at another if it's aggressive. I guess I have too much optomism with the hope that the dogs can be "rehabilitated." But maybe some can never be trusted fully.

Carrie