I own 3 Staffords, I know each one in and out, and no when they need to be put on their leads.
I've never had a problem walking them around parks and down by the river.
One it 10 months and totally fine around all dogs, all of the time.
My oldest bitch is 4, she can be a bit funny with small dogs on occasions, usually while pregnant or just had a litter (she's had 2 litters)
My 18 month Male shows more agression on the lead when meeting strange dogs, than off the lead.
For example at ringcraft, it's like he thinks he owns the place, and he does growl at certain dogs. (I think a lot of dogs are like that on lead).
But out and about he's fine, usually a quick sniff while we walk past whichever dog we happen to be passing. He's never actually gone for any dog while on a walk, but again I tend to either leesh him or make him walk with me when passing small dogs.
This has more to do with being scared if he retaliates if a small dog goes for him, and I'd like to state this has happened on several occasions, just lucky that up to now he's just let it pass and walked off.
Again I feel very lucky compared to some of the posters on here, regarding comments about having devil dogs, I've never experienced anything like that while out on walks, Most people comment on how well behaved and friendly they are. Occasionally someone may ask if they are friendly, but I don't have a problem with that.
But saying all that I do agree that some Staffies do have problems with other dogs, And if I see a Stafford leashed I make sure mine stay well away.
What I do find very annoying, is when I go to general shows, you get some awful looks off people who own other breeds (you know the type, the ones that never start figts). They look at you as if to say, Oh my god are we next to the Staffords, or do you have to walk past me and my dogs with that breed. And I can honestly say I can walk down a row past a variety of dogs with my 2 Staffords, and they'll walk past without bothering the other breeds, and frequently are growled or snapped at by other dog, And no offence meant, but usually little dogs. What gets me though, is if my dog growled or snapped back, that would start the tongues wagging. Typical Stafford, can't be trusted etc etc.
Does anyone else that sort of atmosphere at shows.

Mitch

Interesting thread - got me thinking!  I like staffs, family members had them in the past, great little dogs, wonderful with kids.  That's my positive input, but I have some negative too.  I am wary when meeting them out on walks with my bunch.  A lot of "macho" staff owners in the NE, and a lot of staffs who have been brought up to bolster up the image.  I always put my kids on leads when a strange dog approaches, but do it double quick if it is a staff (or cross staff type).  And one of my pet hates is being in a ring (or benched) next to staffs at a show.  Sorry, staff people, but manys staffs seem to find the sight of either an American Cocker or a Pug a signal to let rip - very unsettling to the objects of the excitement.  At Manchester about 3 years ago we were in an adjoinging ring, and our judging had to be held up a couple of times while the chaos next door died down.  Seemed worse with the dog judging,  when handlers would deliberately place two males facing each other to "spark off" each other - very unsettling if you have your dog set up about 2' away on the other side of a rope.
bye
Gwen

just to tell you about an incident i had, i was out walking the fields with my two. both off the leads, running freely. we were following a well known path with no dangers. when along came a man with a jack russel - also off the lead i might add.  he picked up his dog, and stood still, whilst my two paid neither him or his held in the air dog any attention and ran straight past him. i smiled at the man. his reply: "those dogs should be on a lead and wearing a muzzle"
i asked why?
"that TPYE of dog should be muzzled"
i asked him again "why did they bother you at all? did they bother your dog at all? " i asked him getting annoyed (he may as well have been insulting my child!!!)
"it's just in case" he replied.
"why is your dog not wearing a muzzle" i asked
"theres a bit of difference" he stated
"why? your dog has teeth doesn't he?" (petty i know but i was so angry)
" well with an attitude like yours, it's no wonder THOSE TYPE of dogs are dangerous" he said
" what exactly did my two dogs do to you that has given you the opinion they are dangerous. Not a thing they didn't even acknowledge you or your dog. you clearly do not know what you are commenting on. so please stop wasting my time" i walked away. FUMING.

whilst i agree that it can be daughnting having a large muscular breed of dog runing around, and also some irresponsable owners, he was being cautious to lift his dog out of the way. My two did nothing to warrant his comments on THAT TYPE of dog. and it was an insult to me that i would allow my dogs to run around should they be of danger to anybody. Had that man had his dog on a lead. I would have recalled mine and leashed them. because this would indicate to me that his dog did not like other dogs. his dog was not leashed, therefore giving the impression that it was friendly.  SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have some sympathy though. should a rotweiller be running towards me i would be cauitious. just because they are big and i wouldn't know it. but i wouldn't give its owner a mouthful if he just ran past me and my dogs.

<<<Does anyone else that sort of atmosphere at shows.>>>

Actually yes Michelle. I find the smaller shows the worst- you can guarantee that there will be a mass gathering of certain breeds with their grooming tables and trolleys out who wouldnt dream of moving out of the way to let you pass.
And I hate it when certain people all stop to chat in a group and you cant get past them . And they are aware you are there too but their chat is more important .
As Ive mentioned a million times before mine are fine but what if they werent ?

My biggest bugbear is when the smaller dogs growl and bark at yours and when people turn around to see whats going on they always look at you and assume its the staffys fault!! That drives me nuts!!

Well I can honestly say that Patsy Pug has NEVER, EVER growled or barked at any dog in her life (all 18 months of it) however, at SKC this year we were next to Staffs and Bull Terriers, and she was petrified for most of the time she was in the ring, with the noise coming from the adjacent ring, including the failry obvious "handling" with toys and food being flung about (OK this was Bull Terriers, not staffis at this point).  However, cliques of both breeds were blocking the gangways, making it impossible to pass,  the thing to remember about this, it is the bad manners of the owners/handlers, not the breeds themselves.  But I dont see any reason to encourage dogs to act out the way I have seen happen with staffs in the ring, actively encouraging the "showing off" which almost amounts to open agression to another exhibit.  OK, if this is acceptable at a single breed show, you are not impinging on anyone elses showing, or affecting their dog, but at an all breeds show I think we all owe a little courtesy to each other. 
bye
Gwen

It was my post in 'Showing' on my experience of showing my dog at Bournemouth near the Staffie ring that started this thread off Gwen.  I was shocked by what I saw.

Sandra

Hi Sandra, I missed that thread, but after reading your post here went back to read it.  Interesting, to say the least.  The reasoning given for allowing this percieved aggression in the ring is the history of the Stafford.  I dont see why that is an excuse for allowing dogs to appear to be on the brink of fighting (indeed, encouraging them to give this appearance)  of my two breeds the Spaniels are a gundog, but in the show ring are not required to show they can pcik up, nor are my Pugs required to sit on anyones lap (there original purpose was as a lap dog).  However, they are judged against a standard which suggests they could fulfill these purposes.  Surely the judges of Staffs can see the fitness for purpose without overt aggression from some exhibits?  Without immediatley leaping onto the defensive, perhaps some Staff owners coudl pause and consider other exhibits  feelings, there own breed may be fearless and unpreturbed by aggressive behaviour from dogs, other breeds are not surprisingly seriously upset by this.  Perhaps some Staff peole should consider why the breed has a poor public image, and try to turn the breed thinking round so that it is advantagous to show the wonderful temperament of many of the breed?
bye
Gwen

Hello I posted on the previous thread of Sandrah's and am NOT excusing the behaviour shown by;

A. Some owners of Staffords
B. The aggresion shown by some Staffords (without cause)

However what do you consider that Stafford owners like myself and many on here, not to mention country wide, do to improve the "image" of our chosen and much loved breed?m I have had Staffs since 1978 and this is what I already do, obviousy not enough though;
I am the proud owner of two average Stafford bitches. One of 22 months Sal one of 10 weeks Tess.
The older does agility along with mixed breeds no aggression shown by her or the other dogs toward each other. They lives in happy & peaceful harmony with next doors minature and toy poodles they can see each other through one small part of the fence by the bins :) . Her best friend of the other neighbours dogs is a Yorkie (a little on the large size but a yorkie)
My two both share the house (as my other Staffs before have done) with two cats who are now in their early 20's.
When I take (rarely I admit) Sal to shows usually open or limit/companion she is well behaved quiet and willing to meet sensibly any dog regardless of size/colour/owner.
Last weekend at a local rescue show she won dog with the with the "waggiest" tail with my nephew aged 6 and my Dad aged 78 handling her. She then came second in "best six legs" with my niece aged 10 they both wore striped sock the winning pair wore spots ;) She also went into an obedience class (first time, and without practice) with my other niece aged 11 and they were placed 2nd out of  a number of competitors. Tess the pup will go on to be the same loving trusworthy/happy/well adjusted dog all my others have been.

Oh Sal by the way is also is also a PAT dog  has been for almost a year now and we visit a hospice and now from Sept (new term) a school for children with autistic and learning behavioural problems (where my nephew went until this year.) We couldn;t visit there before because she would not rest if she had heard him. :)

Sal and Tess regularly play with my nieces 11,10, 7 and 3. And nephews 10 and 6. My older nephew is autistic and Sal is extremely gentle and slow around him, as Tess will be and as Gyp (my previous much loved and sadly missed Staff was)
So what more do you suggest I and other well intentioned Stafford owners (such as on here) do other than to sit back and let the "few" ruin our good work. Which I refuse to do. To try and turn the breed thinking round is not difficult. But to turn around the "thinking of people who do not care what dog they have as long as it can give them a "hard image" is as owners of breeds who have previously attracted these people such as GSD's, Rotties, Dobes and to some extent all large guarding breeds can tell you to their sorrow.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are a breed of dog who some love others dislike and some are not even sure what they are :) but they are in my opinon a "wonderful" breed and I will hopefully God willing spend the rest of my life trying to "improve" their public image, which to be honest with dogs such as my "average" two will not be hard :D
Karen
        

Hi Kazz, it sounds to me as if you are doing all you can to try and stop the undesirable image being perpetuated, however, I found the attitude of several posters (mainly on the "Showing" thread) confusing, as they appear to be condoning the habit of letting dogs "spark" against each other in the ring, and exhibiting aggressive signs whilst showing, all because it is the dogs original purpose being seen.  If the breed clubs made it clear to exhibitors and judges that this is not acceptable, and judges didnt put up dogs who were encouraged to behave in this fashion, then people would, perhaps, find a reason to control the dogs better in the ring!  And for the breed clubs to put this message accross it needs the grass roots support from the breeders and exhibitors.  Perhaps this is a catch 22, but whatever the reasoning, it does the breed great disservice for them to be seen like this at shows, and makes showing very unpleasant for others exhibiting in proximity to the breed.
bye
Gwen

Gwen
The same could be said for the guarding breeds, they are not permitted to show this in the ring, just to have the conformation to do the job.  Mine is a herding breed, they are not required to show they can herd sheep, just have the movement and conformation that would enable them to do so with ease.

The point of my first post was to find out if the Staffie people are trying to improve the image and temperament of the breed.  I know several lovely Staffies but I was very concerned to see the image they were showing in a public place and quiet frankly horrified that they were allowed to behave like this a show ring. 

It sounds like there are people in the breed trying hard to change the image and I wish them luck, but I can't change my opinion that aggression has no place in the show ring.

Sandra

Sandra,  I agree with you wholeheartedly, I just cant understand the justifications given in some of the posts that it is just showing the unique nature of the breed, and that those outside of the breed just "dont understand".  Believe me,my dogs understand very well that a couple of dogs just a matter of feet away are apparently threatening to do each other damage - how is my dog meant to know who is being threatened, and get on with the job in hand?  Staffs. have so many wonderful characteristics, why is this the one which is so valued it must even be shown whilst in the ring?  I can understand the mentality of some of the "hard boys" who swagger around with Staffs, using them as a prop to the image, I cannot understand any serious exhibitor wanting this facet of the dogs to be showcased, nor why a judge would condone it, let alone apparently approve and value it!
bye
Gwen

This is what I find so hard to understand because I have never seen experienced handlers deliberately "setting" their dogs to one another How would you expect to settle your dog in the ring if you do this ? Do we all attend the same shows ?

Lel I don't think we are going to make any headway here. Sadly. It seems the opinions are ingrained to say the least. No matter what we do or say. No offence meant to anyone.

Karen :(

Well I did ask for peoples opinions and so people have every right to comment but I truly havent seen deliberate baiting/setting at shows and I think i have attended a fair few now ;)

Maybe people misconceive what they see

No soz don't get me wrong I don't mean people should not air their views/opinions. Just that no matter what "we" Stafford people say to "support" the genuine good nature of our dogs some people will never be swayed by the good just see the "not so good" aspect of the breed.
And I have never seen owners of Staffords setting their dogs against each other either.

Karen  

I have to admit that, many years ago at Midland Counties, dals were in the next ring to Staffs (it's unusual for utility to be on the same day as terriers, so it was very different). I'm sorry, staff owners, but it was scary. My rock-steady bitch was very disturbed by the noise four feet away beyond a flimsy rope as the staffs were encouraged to 'square up' to each other. In fact our ring steward rearranged the ring so that we lined up on the side furthest from the staffs.

All the staffs I have met in day-to-day life have been delightful dogs, friendly and licky to people (even the ones dressed in the 'macho' thick leather studded collars or harnesses, dragging their owners down the road). But when other dogs are about I would rather steer clear. I'm sorry, but that is the impression that the majority of owners want to impart.

:( I am getting more depressed by the moment :(

Karen

maybe people do believe all they read (whether factual or not) and therefore when they see certain things they misjudge them ?

What would these 'certain things' be? Dogs in the ring being told "see him off boy", "go on lad". No. This happens. I am always prepared to see both sides of any debate, but the fact is that there are some staff owners who emphasise the breed's fighting origins. Even the most open of minds will see this at shows.

Lel, Kazz and the other staff owners who are saying pepole misjudge what they see:  I had no ingrained apathy towards your breed.  I LIKE STAFFORDS.  My cousins owned them for many years, several of my customers have them, and I see them frequently.  I dont tar them all with the same brush (so to speak) I acknowledge that Staffs are as likely to have individual natures as any other dog (for instance Sol, who is owned by one of my neighbours, is a total softy, and is not only a bit scared of my pugs but gives due deffernce to my very pushy cat too!)  Until Manchester (I think it was 3 years ago) when we were in an adjoining ring, I had never given a thought to the way staffs werre shown, so had no preconceived notions.  However, I was thankful on that day that I did not have a pup in the ring!  Our judging had to be stopped  to let the staff ring settle down, several Am cockers were visibly shaken and obviously felt threatened.  The noise and the agressive stances of the dogs was frankly scary - and they were deliberatley being set up to act in this way.  This was simple fact, not preconceived ideas, (I had none) nor some sort of misreading of a situation.  Growling, hackles raised, and dogs on their toes and straining to get at and out stare each other are hard to misinterpret.

I really never gave another  thought to the way your breed was shown until SKC this year, when with the Pugs this time, we were adjacent to staffs and Bull Terriers, and the behaviour was the same, with the added distraction of the handlers of the BTs throwing toys and food around to attract their dogs (or distract the competition, it was not clear).  There were bunches of people, with dogs, clogging up the gangway, who did not respond to polite requests to "excuse me" and paid no attention at all to the threats their dogs were uttering.  OK, they may have been totally in control of those dogs, but the fact they did nothing to check the growls and curled lips was worrying.  I was amazed by the sheer intensity of it all!  Some people actually seemed glad that their dogs were getting wound up by passing toy breeds!  There was obviously no thought from the exhibitors in my vicinity that any other exhibitor or breed deserved any consideration.  And dogs were deliberatley being set up, as if in pairs, so that they could look directly into each others faces and agressively react to each other.

Several of us on this and the other thread have all said we have witnessed this sort of showing at Ch. shows, none of us know each other, and I dont think we are jumping on a bandwagon.  Perhaps you are so used to seeing this sort of behaviour in the ring that you dont notice it?  If that is so, it could be a clue to one of the root causes of peoples misconceptions of your breed.   It certainly is not the norm to show other breeds in this way, which is why yours may be singled out for adverses criticism.  After all, we all pay out entry fees and deserve the same enjoyment of the show.  To have your dog terrorised in the ring by the next door ring is unfair, to say the least.  But is staff owners simply dont notice it is going on change is unlikely to happen and the aggressive "sect" will continue to taint the breed with this reputation.
bye
Gwen

<<<There were bunches of people, with dogs, clogging up the gangway, who did not respond to polite requests to "excuse me" and paid no attention at all to the threats their dogs were uttering. >>

But I have had this same situation with other breeds :(

Gwen I am quite surprised at your comment- I have always enjoyed your posts-

<<<Perhaps you are so used to seeing this sort of behaviour in the ring that you dont notice it?  If that is so, it could be a clue to one of the root causes of peoples misconceptions of your breed>>>

I find this a very facetious comment - you are basically saying that because I dont agree with you it is because I am used to seeing this situation  ?
I dont agree with it and neither am I used to seeing it -
as i say maybe we all attend different shows

Hi Lel,  I was referring to the post stating that people were reacting to preconceived notions, so I simply stated what had happened at the 2 shows where I was in the proximity of the breed.  Yes, I have had problems with bunches of people around breed rings, whatever the breed, but never, with other breeds, have they had dogs with them reacting in this manner.  I agree, it is unnacceptable behaviour whatever the breed.  The reason I mentioned it here was the fact that the people were so intent on the ring, and the way the dogs reacted to each other when shown that they seemed not to notice the way the dogs they were in charge of were threatening other dogs.

My second comment was certainly not meant to be faectious or flippant.  But I find it hard to believe that the only time Staffs are shown in this manner were the 2 shows I mentioned, and the ones mentioned by Sandrah and Jeangenie.  People can get de-sensitised to things they witness frequently.  I was not trying to belittle anyone, nor their opinions.  And I am not asking you to agree with an opinon, I was simply writing about factual events as I witnessed them.  I am sorry if you feel I am being difficult or dismissive, but if caring, responsible people like those on this board  are saying they have never witnessed this sort of handling then we must indeed attend different shows!  Luckily, in all the years I have been showing, these are the only 2 occassions I have been in very close proximity to the breed, so I cant generalise, perhaps I picked bad days, as did the other 2 posters who have witnessed this first hand?
bye
Gwen

You may have hit the nail on the head Gwen, possibly we are de-sensitised to it. And the old saying "Can't see the wood for the trees" is right and we can't from the inside see what others see looking in.

Therefore all I can say as one on the "inside" is, please take the time to step in, and then you'll see what a brilliant bunch of people we really are, as well as what fantastic dogs we have.
But I have to say most people are not like you, and do not view our breed with the "open mind" but with a closed-preconcieved idea of a stafford already in their head.And yes I know that sometimes that closed mind has been nailed shut by the behaviour of irresponsible people within the breed.

Karen

At East of England three years ago we had to share the Wet Weather sheds with the Staffs, No problem to my  then Youngest Cavalier boy as he had & still has a X Staffie girlfriend who he has played with & brought out of her shell(she was a rescue born from a Staffie bitch & looks like a very small black staffie)

However there were two male handlers of Staffies encouraging their male dogs to spar across the corner of the Cavalier ring, where I had the misfortine to be stood.. My boy at first was wagging his tail & happy, but when one dog lunged at the other & then at him I had to scoop him up & the staffie dog garbbed my trousers & leg.. The handler laughed & told me It's ok he's only playing. The other handler laughed too. They stopped laughing when our ring steward came across & took their ring numbers & then went to the stewards in the Staffie ring & told them what he had seen. The stewards then spoke to the judge who I notced later did not place the handlers or dogs. The Cavalier steward & myself also reported the incident to the show secretary, but the staffie handlers told the KC that my dog had started the incident by looking at their dogs ! I think they were just warned by the KC

I was left with a badly bruised leg & a cavalier who is now scared of parti coloured staffies, he is ok with the dark & solid staffies. Thankfully we have not been in a ring near the staffies since. I'm not against staffie just against stupid handlers as a Airedale handler let her dog jump on the same cavalier & knock him of the table I was grooming him on Again the handler said don't woryy he's only playing, my boy now hates all airedales & will bark & growl at them

My cavaliers love most dogs big or small & it is very upsetting to me that other handlers let their charges misbehave & frighten my dogs then think it is so very funny. I don't think they would have thought it so funny if I had let my large GSD bitch do the same to their dogs

Lel, as I said in my post about what I witnessed at Midland Counties that year, it is unusual for Utility breeds to be shown on the same day as Terriers - usually we are combined with Toys; one year at Bath we shared the day with Hounds, and once (East of England I think) we shared with Gundogs. So I don't often see Staffs being shown! Most breeds have their own handling techniques in the ring: some are stacked, some freestood. GSDs have a very unusual gaiting method. Yorkies have their red velvet boxes. OES are continually brushed within an inch of their lives. All of these I have seen myself. Going by what I have witnessed myself, I was given the impression (and so have Gwen and Sandrah, on different occasions - coincidence? Have we all seen untypical ring behaviour?) that Staffords are encouraged to appear and sound aggressive. And it disturbs and unnerves other breeds (and their owners).

It's a shame, because, as I also said, the Staffs I've met have been very nice dogs. If I hadn't seen this behaviour at shows I would like the breed more. It does their reputation no good.

Having posted on the previous thread about Staffies at Shows and feeling somewhat outnumbered I was beginning to doubt my own experiences with some exhibitors and their staffies at shows.  It was reassuring to read this thread and have it confirmed that others have also had these experiences.

It may be that there are only one or two bad apples in the basket, but unfortunately with a breed such as Staffies who are extremly vocal it is not something that the majority of other exhibitors can ignore.

Even if it is only one or two bad apples surely the answer must be for the stewards and judges of the breed to mark down dogs this bad behaviour and possibly report it, then it will surely discourage those exhibitors from  encouraging it and help to improve the general opinion on staffies.

Like Gwen, Jeangenie and the others I too know a lot of very nice Staffies and others of the Bullbreeds, but the answer lies with the owners and handlers of the dogs, it is up to you to stamp out what others see in the breed as aggresion.

In my breed, we have in the past seen displays of bad temperament at shows, this is frowned upon and it is very rare that that dog or dogs is seen at shows again. 

I will say that all breeds can have a disagreement between dogs, thats quite acceptable, and so long as that is corrected at the time, then usually no problems usually occur in the future.