I have a smashing lab bitch, from ShCh stock, whose parents scored 2/3 and 2/5.

She was scored at 15/8 however.  My feeling is that this is probably management more than genetics as she had a fairly active puppyhood but I rather stupidly followed the breeders advice about shovelling lots of mince into her and having puppies quite podgy (hers were kennel dogs tho so didn't jump about on their hind legs as often).

I am an experienced breeder (though my first breed isn't labs) and would dearly like to take a litter from this cracking little bitch, endorse the pups I sell, and hope that with correct management the ones I keep score very low.

Any thoughts on this, or what the likely response will be from breeders?
Anyone else have any experience of high hip scores through injury?

Will be interesting to see how the responses go on this one.  In your position, I would go ahead and have a litter.  Common thinking seems to be that with an uneven score, the higher score is usually environmentally influenced, so I'd count her score a tad lower anyway.

I would use a dog with a good hip score, who consistently produces good hip scores (the KC will send you a list of all scored dogs in your breed, for a small fee, showing sire and dam so you can see what sires are producing).  As you say, endorse the rest and score yours, and keep your fingers crossed.  If you and the puppy buyers wish, endorsements could be removed later on production of an appropriate hip score.

Just my opinion, as I say I will be interested to hear other people's ........

Marina

I would agree with what Brtihow says.  It should be quite easy with a breed as numerically large as Labs to find a sire that is proven not only to score low but produce low, as well as being good in all other deparrments that you need to complement her. 

Are any of her littermates scored as that should also be taken into account, or offspring of the parents from earlier/later litters?

Think I agree, the problem may be in finding this paragon of a stud and persuading the owner to risk his reputation on a bitch with an over breed average score who's puppies may produce a % of pups who are also high scoring.

When I had Thea hip scored it came back at 3:25, I knew that one of my lads had piled into her side when playing, we did not breed from her as for us the time was never right to give full attention to a litter but I would have put her to a low hip scoring dog if everything else was ok

Hi,

I have a Golden Retriever bitch that injured her left hip at 6 month old ,stupidly a friend threw her a ball and she jumped high missed and came down on left side.

Scored at 13 months and gave me 7:36(pedigree was low scoring),for a couple years I was undecided what to do and left it too late now to take a litter 6 this Sept,I regret my decsion  but if I had the time again I would use a low scoring dog producing low as like above post mention.This bitch went on to do very well for us in the showring but now with more experience on our side I would not hesitate to do a one of mating and see.

Best of luck Briony :-)

She was scored at 13 months, and as far as I can tell all her siblings, aunties and uncles etc are all low scoring. 

A few years ago I was talking to a particular Labrador breeder. She told me that somehow her puppies scores never turned out quite as good as she had thought they should. She had looked at all aspects of her husbandry and the only thing she could see which might account for it was the flooring in the room she used for the puppies. This was a quarry tile flooring which she had thought would be easy to clean. She noticed that when the puppies started to venture out of the whelping bed they had difficulties standing on the tiles, often slipping and actually doing the splits at times. As an experiment she got several pieces of Vet Bed type and walled off an area the size of a large piece and confined the puppies to that area. As a direct result of the pup's being able to keep their footing at an early age this breeder reckoned her hip scores improved drastically! This is just one illustration on how important the early days are for a puppy.

Your score of 15/8 is quite uneven and could possibly be the result of damage. The best side, 8, were it the same for the other side would still give you a total of 16, over the BMS. It is often said, and rightly, that a dog is more than just a pair of hips. The only thing is, bad hips can cause a deal of pain for the dog whereas poor angulation for example would in its self not give pain. Looked at like this hips are very important, possibly the single most important part of the dog.

Saying all that, an 8/8 score, although above where I would like, is provided all else is good is possibly worth mating to a low scoring dog. You could put a breeding endorsement on the puppies until such times as their hips are proved.

Best wishes, John

John, that's one of the most sensible posts I've read about hips in a long time.
:)

Very interested in this theory. I was intending to use a tiled floor (ease of cleaning) for my forthcoming litter once they were fully mobile. It looks like a double order of vet bed so that I have plenty to line the play pen. What do you think about newspaper or cardboard placed on top of tiles?

My thought would be that the paper would slide on the tiles. Cardboard might be ok but you would need so much. You could not clean it and it could easily need four or five coverings a day. What this person's thoughts were that with enough pieces she could put them in the washing machine and dry them under cover so always have replacements ready. Of course, they are not wasted because you can save them for next time or use them up as required for beds for the dogs.

It is all things to think about when thinking of having puppies.

Best wishes, John

Hi,

In my main kennel im putting traditional quarry tiles down which will be sealed,however
Im also putting down on top a large piece of heavy duty rubber matting to provide antislip for the adults ,the puppies will be in a separate room on a non slippy surface.In the winter deep shavings are on the floor with raised beds find this cleans the Goldens brilliantly from the wet muddy fields.

Briony:-)

It will be interesting to see if the fashion for laminate floors has an effect on the overall hipscores.

We have to look back to the days of the wild. Dogs were never designed for domestic living. Their feet are specifically designed to give grip outdoors. The pads cushion the footfall on rocky or solid ground and on looser ground their claws dig in to obtain purchase. I find it so interesting to watch Anna setting off on a retrieve. She seems to squat down a couple of inches and her hind legs go wider between. A look at the dirt shows where her claws have dug into the ground and she is off like a rocket!

Trouble is, we have brought the dog into the home and have set it down on all sorts of un natural floor coverings. All puppies, when first getting up onto their feet are a little unstable. Initially the crawl around because the muscles are not yet powerful enough to hold their weight. Gradually the strength increases and finally the puppy manages to just about stand. The muscles are still not strong enough to do more than barely support the pup and any movement is at best tottery. Bones are still soft and particularly the pelvis, which at this stage is three separate pieces held together with cartilage, is so easy to damage.

Looked at like this it's a wonder that we get even a halfway decent hip score but we do, and that speaks volumes about the adaptability of the dog! When Anna was a baby she was sitting on my lap when she heard something. She jumped off, over the arm of the chair. One of her hind feet slipped and went down between my leg and the arm of the chair and left poor Anna hanging by the leg! I must admit I was convinced that there could be no chance her hip was not damaged! I got her tested at about 18 months old so that I would know the extent of the damage and would at least be able to modify her work to suit. I was very pleasantly surprised to find her score 2/2.

All this just goes to show how wonderfully adaptable the body is!

Best wishes, John

Flooring is a difficult one, thankfully in my puppy room we have an ancient concrete floor that is wonderfully smooth and not at all slippery if it is kept scrubbed clean.  However, could I afford to cover this in some way (lets face it - bare concrete can be cold cold and it looks a bit gloomy!) i'd go for some of the non-slip industrial lino that you get for restaurant kitchens - even when wet it doesn't slip and comes in various colours etc.

You have obviously thought this through. There was at least one major Lab show champion who had an incredibly high hip score.

How old was your bitch when you had her hips scored?

My bitch was quite a little porker, but  I did limit the exercise. Labs have a long maturity zone, and I think you have to manage the skeletal development very carefully. My friend has a lab bitch who was not as heavy as mine, but had a very active puppyhood and this bitch has had hip problems. My friend has cut down on the exercise and walking and things have improved.

My labs kill each other every morning between the hours of 9 and 9.30 - I keep an eye and make sure they dont get too over exuberent.

One of my boys is 10/13, very, very interested in reading about floor etc.  I only moved to this house 6 months before he was born and I had the pups on the floor, wood and tiled !!  He moves wonderfully but he also was quite active as a puppy and still is, he actualy never stays still.  His grandad, great grandad etc. all had really low scores. His grandma and great grandma were never scored but anybody who saw Dilita move could see that there was nothing wrong with her hips.

This is certainly making me think about what to do with pups etc. next time round.

       "anybody who saw Dilita move could see that there was nothing wrong with her hips."

Sorry but IMO that is one of the most misconceived ideas of all about hips. You can not tell by a dogs movement, as has been said there are show champions with high hip scores, they are also judged on movement. I had a bitch with a score of 24:22 who won her fair share of 1sts. There are many people who make this statement and use it to not hip score their dogs and many more who believe this to be true.
Sorry perrodeagua, not personal.

I'd agree too, having seen two GSD litter sisters years ago - one of them we knew we'd have a problem with from about 6 months of age, and sure enough she scored an horrendous 62. :(

Her litter sister, who moved like a dream, scored 63

Again, not personal, just agreeing it's a misconception.

Marina

flynn moves fantastically hes got 21-21=42
interesting about the floor as ours is quite slippy........
:(

The  top bitch winning for many years in one of the breeds I have has a 70 hip score, she is top winning bitch in this country and has been show extensively in Europe with many comments on her excellent movement and drive.

I only hope she is never bred from Britney. As if the risk to the poor bitch and the puppy's is not enough inducment, the risk of being sued by the puppy buyers should be! Lets face it, its happened in the past when puppies have developed HD.

Regards, John

I think this is the real key as to whether to breed from this bitch. Whatever pups you dont want to keep will need to be sold. Anyone taking the advice of forums such as this and most wise council will have been told to avoid buying where the parents have hip scores above the breed average. To be honest, most buyers only know that the score should have been done, not what it should be, however, the really honest breeder would want to make absolutely clear to the buyers what the scores mean.

Any breeder using a high hip score bitch is going to have some reason / excuse when questioned by puppy buyers - some will be absolutely genuine like the original poster, and some will be fabrications! My advice to a buyer, would be avoid such litters unless they particularly knew and trusted the breeder and that the bitch was genuinely exceptional (rather than just nice). If they just want a pet, then i'd play safe(er) and go for parents with lower scores.

I can understand the reasons for wanting to breed. I have been in exactly the same position with a 5/17 lab, that I would love to have bred. If I could have just bred enough for myself I would have gone ahead. In the end a pyometra took the decision away. :-(

I wouldnt criticise the original poster for breeding in these circumstances, but given that labs are not exactly rare, i probably wouldnt do it myself. If I bred a poor scoring dog, at least I can say the parents scores were OK.

I think that if is the way things are going then every single breed should be hipscored.  It's so easy to call certain breeds but seeing as most breeds don't even have tests done I would love to know what the "so-called" breeds with no problems are, I bet they are the worst going.

When I say re. my dog Dilita, I meant in general as at 12 years of age she was still being shown, went swimming a few times a week etc. if she had problems surely they would of shown up by then?  Don't know because I've never had a breed where you've had to have them hip scored so don't know the ins and outs.  Though there are some dogs that I've seen that the movement looks awful and they have the best hips going.

Everyone seems to have a different opinion even the ones who specialise in the field.  I have to say I find it confusing!!

It has been said that if the hips are "Too Good" then they can be a bit tight and so affect movement. This is rubbish! As an engineer I can assure people that accuratly made joints are not, and never can be tight. Most movment is not affected by the hips as much as the anglulation. A poorly made back or front end will never move well. But correctly made, even with very poor hips, as long as pain is not a factor, will move well. Never confuse the two.

Best wishes, John

I have had the two ends of hop scores A GSD with perfect 0:0=0 hips who was a a very fit & active dog with correct hind movement & a BC with 34:34=68 who is also at 12 years old  very fit active & also moves correctly behind. The common thing being the muscular body of both dogs & the BC being kept fit(no he has never been bred from dispite being asked by several show people to use him)I'd never had a dog with severe HD before & have kept him lean & well muscled

JOHN

From the my prior post, she has been bred from!!!!. This is in a small gene pool where these pups will be included in many breeding programs, by people that do not do research into the background of pedigree's and just use the lastest dog with the big name. There is another with 60 that was mated last year with no results but will be mated again this year I would think


This is one of the reasons that I am going to the trouble of bringing in lines from other counties with proven records, rather than see a breed I have been in for 18 years go to hell, and walk away.