I know some of you show Staffies so wondered what your thoughts were on what I saw yesterday. 

I was at Bournemouth Champ Show and my breed was in the opposite ring to the Staffies.  A lot of the dogs were in cages by the ring and everytime someone walked past they were aggressively going for the dog.  But in the ring in several of the classes they were having a right go at each other. This wasn't a snap or two, this was 'in for the kill'.

I personally would have thrown out those dogs showing aggression in the ring but the judge and the ringside didn't appear to act as if it was anything out of the ordinary.  The handlers appeared to find it funny :rolleyes:  I was shocked that dogs with that sort of temperament were being shown and quite possibly being bred from.

I know a lot of you recommend this breed as a family pet, from what I saw, if this is where KC registered stock is coming from I would not want them as part of my family.

Don't all jump on me, I am only saying what I saw, not making a comment on the breed in general.  But I would be interested in hearing the views of those that show Staffies.

Sandra

Alot of Staffies do not get on with other dogs especially in a 'cramped' enviroment like a show ring but as an owner of an SBT I can assure you that the dogs you saw at the show do not carry on the same way when they are at home. As SBT's were originally bred to be fighting dogs then the instict still remains within some of them to be slightly aggresive but on the other side of the coin you have very placid bitches and dogs who wouldn't say boo to a goose. The judge wouldn't be obliged to throw any of the dogs out that were being exhibited unless they actually bit another dog or were being aggresive towards the judge (which didn't happen and I have never heard of it happening).

As SBT's are known as the nanny dog and are one of only two dogs recommended by the kennel club as 'suitable with children' then the question you raise about them being good family pets has been blown away I am afriad to say. Until you have owned a SBT you can't start to comprehend what they are like to have in and around your home. Doubt you would ever find a more loving dog that is willing to please you all day every day. As you say there were some dogs in some clasees being aggresive but I am sure out of the 143 entered most of them were impecibaly behaved, including my bitch!

Thanks for the insight. 

But as an exhibitor with an impeccably behaved bitch don't you get angry that there are dogs in the ring giving your breed such a bad name.  When this aggression started in the ring everyone looked over and saw it, mumbles around me were to the effect of what a bad temperament they had as a breed.  I know all breeds have the odd bad apple, mine included but I have never seen it displayed in the ring before and the fact the judging carried on makes me think these were not isolated instances.

What I saw could not be explained as 'slightly aggresive', it was not in one class either but several.  I am just surprised that exhibitors and genuine breeders are not trying to improve the temperament of the breed and stop this type of behaviour.  They have not been fighting dogs for a lot of years (not legally anyway) and if there are good natured placid dogs and bitches around why are you still using those with such dodgy temperements.

I know there are good ones out there I have met several and am certainly not anti Staffie even if they are not a breed that appeals to me, I just find it sad to see any breed allowed to exhibit at a show displaying such aggression in the ring.

Sandrah

as luxnallsstaffs quite rightly pointed out, the staffords were originally conceived and bred for fighting
this is a part of their history whether people like it or not and those traits are still inherent in the breed today albeit in much smaller doses than in the earlier days

simply because they were having a gripe and a snarl at the dog next to them doesnt mean that there is anything wrong with their temperements
quite a few of the terrier group will have a go at another dog if given a chance
but does that make them all have dodgy temperements and in need of a quick trip to the vets ?

what about the rottweiller that tried to take a chunk out of my little staffy bitch the other day at a show - even though she was merely walking past without a care in the world and not even looking at any other dog
what about the greyhound that attacked my dog when he was a 6 month old puppy - hes a staffy too - he tried to walk away, unsure of such a big dog - but the greyhound pounced on him
what about the bedlington terriers that mugged my friends dog in the park - hes a staffy too - and ripped him to bits
what about the yorkshire terrier that come rushing out from under the tables and chairs at a show and bit another friends dog - guess what - hes a staffy too
do all those dogs have dodgy temperements ?
probably not - but it was all OK because it happened to a staffy

theres good and bad in all breeds
but its just so easy to pick on the staffys
it used to be the GSD`s, dobermans, and rottweilers that were the bad boys
but they are now respectable/acceptable breeds
hopefully the staffy will be one day as well

but i pity the breed that becomes the next "bad-boy" breed, as there will always be people ready to condemn them without a second thought

Z

I knew someone would turn this into an aggressive thread, there doesn't seem much you can discuss on here in a civil manner.

>>simply because they were having a gripe and a snarl at the dog next to them doesnt mean that there is anything wrong with their temperements<<

Sorry, I have to disagree with that statement.

>> does that make them all have dodgy temperements and in need of a quick trip to the vets ?<<

Where on earth did I say that!!

My point was very clear if you read my posts, It was the fact these dogs were being shown in the ring, I posted under showing, it had nothing to do with dogs temperaments in the local park.

I also pointed out I am not anti Staffie, I saw some lovely ones there behaving impeccably, which is why I wondered if the owners of these condemmed the behaviour of the anti social ones or just accepted it. 

Even you must agree that at a public event to see such behaviour from a breed does it absolutely no good at all and you will never change the image while you allow this to happen.

We have owned 3 staffs and whilst the first 2 were of a placid nature our current bitch, whilst good natured with humans is not keen on some other dogs, particulary other staffords.  As Lux has explained, the fighting instinct still remains in some and because as you know with pedigrees, there is a lot of interbreeding it would be almost impossible to eliminate.  The breed standard states they are bold, courageous and fearless and so to back down when challenged is not something which comes naturally to some.  It is an instinct, in the same way as humans have an instinct to protect themselves when in danger.  We show our bitch and our daughter shows her in JH.  We keep her at a safe distance from other exhibitors and she is controlled at all times.  Sometimes, as in all breeds, there can be a lapse in concentration whilst waiting in the ring to be judged - people chat to each other, there are other distractions out of the ring and if the dog is of a feisty nature these incidences happen.  I'm sorry you got a negative impression.  There are a lot of people who look down their noses at staffs because of a lot of bad media attention, but I'm sure if they actually took the trouble to find out a bit more about them, their views would change. After all the information from the KC can't be wrong.

<<<I knew someone would turn this into an aggressive thread, there doesn't seem much you can discuss on here in a civil manner.>>>

I dont think this has been turned into an aggressive thread at all ?
I think staffy owners/showers have answered sensibly and politely

Most have Lel, infact charlys post puts it into perspective, but I did find ziggars post rather rude and as usual things put in that were not even said.

Having read your past threads on staffies and how much you love the breed I would be surprised if you agreed with most of the comments, or condone the behaviour exhibited as ziggar appears to.

OK
i dont think my post was aggresive in any way
i simply answered and put forward my views in my own words as did you in your posts
and nowhere in my post did i say that i condoned the behaviour
i stated that it was part and parcel of the breed being something that is bred into them very deeply from many years ago
which if you had taken the time to read my post properly rather than jumping on your high horse and sounding off you would have understood

if you didnt want argumentative responses then why post messages with such sweeping generalizations ?

and now you have had a dig at Lel because she has answered

im sorry that you found my post rude and aggresive but to be honest with you i dont really care
so you`ll probably find this one absolutely disgusting

the trouble is that there are too many people ready to bash the staffy for the littlest reason
and coming on here and doing it is very easy for you

if when at Bournemouth you had taken the time to speak to a few of the knowledgable owners of staffy around the ring, then you wouldnt have needed to come on here and make the remarks that you have
i found your remarks quite offensive to be honest and am suprised that no-one else has yet said so

Z

I think a chill pill is needed here.

I don't think that the original poster was denegrating staffie's as a breed, just the ones she saw displaying bad behaviour at the show.  I show terriers and I have to say I dread the shows where we are in the next ring to the Staffies, the aggression and baiting that goes on can cause young puppies to quiver and even mature adults to react badly.  Indeed I had a bitch puppy who was almost pounced upon at her very first show by a staffie lunging under the ropes of the next door ring, she was never the same in the ring after that.

But I can also see where you Staffie people are coming from, we all defend our chosen breed to the hilt in whatever circumstances, and there are good and bad in every breed.  Unfortunately around the Staffie ring is does seem to be a common activity by SOME exhibitors to bait there dogs at each other and any other dog who cares to walk in the vicinity (this is not the breeds fault it is some of the owners) and this is what gives the Staffies the bad reputation.  I don't think that that this can be denied by any of you that show.

I personally know a large amount of staffies who are very sweet tempered and would agree that with people they are generally a delightful dog.  But to activally encourage aggression at shows like some exhibitors do, can do the breed no good whatsoever. Like the original poster I too have heard mumblings at shows about the breed.

I would also agree that there are other breeds of dogs who can be aggressive at Shows and believe that any dog who shows such aggression should be banned from being taken into a situation where they are likely to react like this.

If any of mine did so I would immediately withdraw them from showing, and would never think of breeding from them.

Can I suggest that rather than immediately going on the defensive you Staffie owners think about how you would feel if the cirumstances were reversed.

If you all want to have a pop at me for saying what I have then go ahead, but this is just my opinion gained over many years of showing.

<<<Having read your past threads on staffies and how much you love the breed I would be surprised if you agreed with most of the comments, or condone the behaviour exhibited as ziggar appears to. >>>

There are dogs that bark in the ring and at the ringside but I have heard/seen dogs bark in the majority of  breeds when showing.
I cannot lie and say I have never seen a staffordshire bark or act aggresivley either when waiting to go in the ring or when in the ring. Showing can be stressful for any dog. But I have personally never seen people laugh or find it amusing when their dog acts like this .
Temperament is of upmost concern for any sensible owner/shower/breeder- especailly with BSL spreading throughout Europe and other countries.

And  I do think everyone answered politely . I dont think anyone has been defensive in any posts here and i am at a loss as to why certain comments have been made?

Lady Dazzle can you expalin what you mean by the term Baiting ? Are you claiming that certain people deliberately "set" their dog to yours and others ? Where was this at and did you complain to the stewards?

It wasn't anywhere in particular Lel, just observation at possibly most of the shows I attend in a year which is probably 20 odd and over about 15-20 years.

It is very common practice to see baiting both outside and inside the ring.

Staffie's are not the only breed to do it.  I have seen airedale, staffie and bull terrier exhibitors deliberately let their dogs close to dogs in cages to stir their dog up before going into the ring.

Why haven't I reported it?  Possibly because it is a waste of time.  At Leeds it was reported  that we couldn't get down the aisle by our benches because of another breed clogging up the aisle with their grooming tables (which is totally against KC rules), the chief steward attended and was told that they would not move and they didn't, so what is the point of complaining.

Life is too short to do this at every show, I would much rather be aware of the behaviour and keep my own dogs well clear.

My reasons for posting on this thread was to try and give a viewpoint from an exhibitor in another terrier breed.

                                                                                                                      

<<My reasons for posting on this thread was to try and give a viewpoint from an exhibitor in another terrier breed.>>

as indeed you are more than entitled to :)

Long term breeders/showers/owners are only too aware of the bad publicity that certain breeds get - not always justified i must add-
and they would be horrified to see any behaviour that portrays their breed in a bad light- its certainly not condoned by those representing the breed
but as already mentioned, this breed was bred for a particular purpose in the past ,although good temperament nowadays is high on the list for many

Hi, I wasn't going to post on here but have to.

Earlier this year I visited a Ch show with a friend who is not "a stafford person" at all and I have to say he considered the behaviour around the ring the same way you did Sandrah, and actually commented to me on it. Now I did not consider the situtation to be as he said at one point "out of hand over there"  to which he meant the "dog ring" as we were watching bitches, to me they were two Staffs "lunging at each other" because the one obviously considered the other had "stepped into his space" or at least that is what I saw. The owners of the two dogs were smiling and chatting to each other almost ignoring their dogs but keeping them on tight leads as they waited their turn to move round the ring as you do when showing. Now my friend was aghast at the situation and said he would never come to a Stafford ring again. But to me it seemed perfectly normal behaviour.

If you get two people watch something you get two different opinions don't you?

But although not every Staff is 100% around other dogs they should all be 110% around people/children. So while it sometimes looks around a Stafford ring as if "WW3" is breaking out, believe me it never does:) Temperament is very very important to all admirers of the Stafford breed; and I think we should be taking seriously, negative opinions such as Sandrah's of our breed and working hard to turn them around, as I readily admit a lot of people already are doing, and long may it continue.
Karen :)

Thank you Kazz and Lady Dazzle for your reply.  I think they are balanced views and more on line with what I was asking originally. 

I was hoping someone would say that temperament was important and should be taken seriously, unfortunately a few people seem to have the view that they are bred for fighting and this is ok, which is obviously not helping the breed.

I can never accept that two dogs going for each other in the ring is acceptable behaviour, but that is my opinion.  If breeders are trying to stamp this out. which it appears they are, then that is great and can only be good for the breed. 

I think my original post showed that I was more shocked then anything, rather like your friend Kazz.

Good luck to those of you trying to improve the breeds reputation.

Sandra (who has met some lovely Staffs at training classes and there is a cracker working in obedience at the moment)

Hi again Sandrah,
     Yes good temperament is vital in the 21st century Staff; as todays Staffs are bred for the home and/or the show ring rather than the fighting ring as in days gone by. But Staffords were orginally bred to fight and nothing we do now will change that and because of that you have to understand that deep in their fibre the "fighting" gene is still there and you need as a Stafford owner to be aware of this all the while. And to remove that element of their character would be like trying to remove the instinct to retrieve from a Lab, or herd from a collie. :( Just because what they were orginally bred to do no longer exsists (thank God) that does not mean the breed should alter that "engaging" side of their personality. A Stafford who does not "go" is not a Stafford I was once told.
     That does not mean in this day and age that a dog has to live his life "fighting" but he should be able to do so, if called upon, because of what he is a Stafford.

The characteristics of a well bred Stafford are;
     From the past history of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the modern dog draws his character of indomitable courage, high intelligence and tenacity. This coupled with his affection for his friends, and children in particular, his off-duty quietness and trustworthy stability, makes him the foremost all-purpose dog.
     Such points of character are not easy to assess in a dog at which you may be looking for the first time. They are intangi-bles. Certainly, you will be aware if a dog is aggressive, composed or shy, but as to his true character you can do little more than surmise, unless you know him intimately. Some people think a snarling, mouthy dog is a game one. Often, the opposite is true and many dogs exhibit in this way only because they feel safe with their owner at the other end of the lead! Obviously, such a dog does not conform to this section of the Standard, but how do you assess him? In judging Characteristics, your yardstick is largely one of commonsense, coupled with your knowledge of the breed.

Karen (who adores Staffords warts and all. But is also always willing to admit they are not the dog for everyone.)

Well I didn't think I would be swung to think they were showing anything but pure aggression, but your explanation of the characteristics of the Stafford are very enlightening. 

It is very true in many breeds that the mouthy dog is the bully when the owner is there to protect it, I have had a mouthy dog who if faced danger would be a coward, the same as I have had a kind gentle one who I know would have protected me to the death.

Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well.

Sandra

As an outsider looking in Sandrah it is very hard to understand SBT's and their traits and for some people they appear to be just too much to handle or even consider as pets. As I stated before and others have also said it is in SBT's nature to be aggresive towards other dogs and if that instict was taken away then they wouldn't be the same dog much like taking away a bloodhounds instict to track or a beagles sense of smell or ability to run tirelessy which they need to fulfill their purpose they were bred for. Should you be at any shows and feel like you would like to find out more about SBT's look us up in the catalouge and I would be more than willing to spend half an hour or more talking to you about my chosen breed much like you would do so if someone was asking questions about your breed.

Hi Sandrah
I should say "Snap luxnallsstaffs" really.
Sandrah I hope you realise that most Stafford people are like luxanallsstaffs and only to willing to talk about their dogs. I too would be willing to spend time with anyone wishing to "know/understand/meet" my chosen breed too.
Although I would like to say publicly now that after any such meeting my dogs go home with me "NO SWOPPING ONE OF YOUR BREED FOR MINE" ;)

My older bitch is a PAT dog and has been since just over 1, quite an achievment for any breed. The pup may or may not follow in her pawsteps, but either way I would stake my "life"on the temperament of my dogs, around people/dogs/cats/livestock. Couldn't promise with squirrels or rats though :)
Staffords are a breed that you either can't live without or can't live with no halfway measures with a staff; a bit like the breed themselves really :D
Karen

Next time the Pastorals are on with the Terriers I will take you up on your offer :)

<<NO SWOPPING ONE OF YOUR BREED FOR MINE>>  No chance, can't live without mine either :p

Thanks, Sandra

when Leo was a pup i started taking him to ring craft classes, most of the ones i went to were for staffords only but i went to an all breed 1 once and the coments that were made were quite bad just like you they thought the dogs were trouble.

there was a group of young dogs at the bottom of the hall with Leo being the youngst 16 weeks, there was my friends dog Levi and 2 other older pups with 2, 2 year old bitches. the bitches were just laying down in between goes on the mat but the pups becided that they wanted to play the nosie they made was not load but very load and we decided that we should split them up as the nosie was to load in a small hall, non of these pup's got to gether to play as its not the time or place to play.
whan it was my turn on the mat the person going over Leo told me it was a good idea that we had split up as for the 2 mins of nosie he had 8 complants.  now remember that these pup never got to tuch each other, but there where 3 yorkys that did get to PLAY and 1 went home with a riped ear.

after it was my turn on the mat i went to stand by 1 of the ppl that had made the complant to try and show her what the breed was like.  she had a small Italian Whipit same age as Leo. this dog was very small and Leo was totaly petrefied of it. i made a point of making a fuss of her dog to see if she would do the same, she didnt but we got chating and she askesd why i let me dogs be like that, to me they were only being pup's but to her it was a full on fight.  by the time it was time to leave her dog and Leo were playing nice (leo was getting his a*s kicked by her lol)

i have only told you this so u might see that what you see and what is going on are to diffrent things.  if there is a fight in the ring with any breed then they should be kicked out and if a dog goes for a juge then it should be kicked out (i have seen a lot of other terriers go for juges in the ring and not a eye lid been flicked cos it was a a yorkie or a westy i have even seen blood and still nothing said)  but if want you are seeing is a dog saying that you are to colse to me get out of my space then there is nothing wrong with that