Can anybody please help me i have a 19 month old male japanese Akita who refuses to come when called, when he`s in the house hes great he will do anything for a treat but when outside there is nothing i can tempt him with hes so interested in whats going on around him he ignores me totally, my problem is when hes out side he is always on a lead and under somewhat control when walking but the problem starts in the house having a 10yr daughter she is in and out of the front door as kids do driving me mad and always having the living room door closed so the dog cant escape ha... lol, so we think as you can imagine he has escaped 3 times up to date with us in hot pursuit calling him he just ignores us and keeps going my main worry is if he does this when im on my own there is no way i can catch him up hes just to fast the last couple of times my partner was home thank god... i am unsure how to train him how to come back while outside as there is no fenced area and there are busy roads both sides of the house so letting him off the lead is out the question we have taken him to training classes and just to show me up like in the house he is a angel doing every hes told any advice would be great

Train him on a long line and don't let him off lead until he comes to you every time he's called.

Put him on the line and let him wander away from you.  Decide on your recall command eg "come" and call his name and the command.  Immediately give a gentle tug on the line and reel him in.  Praise and reward him for coming.  Do this lots until he turns to look at you and starts to come to you without your tug prompt.

Repeat but throw a toy out first and call him back (on the line) when he has the toy in his mouth.

When he comes everytime, up the stakes and call him back midway between you and the toy.  Only when he responds 100% on the line, with distractions, can you start to recall offf-line.

Whenever your dog comes to you praise him.

If you have to do something to your dog that you know he doesn't like (clip his claws!) go to him DO NOT call him to you.

Never chase him.  If he takes off, try calling him and running in the other direction but try to avoid him getting out until his recall is good.

I agree with Suziegue but train him before he is feed and make your treats tasty eg. chicken or sausage

Hi
Thanks for your replies as this is good advice and I will try this approach but a bit concerned about the long line, I have always walked him on a giant flexi lead about 15ft long but he doesn't walk, once the break has been clicked off he runs like hell, I do stand my ground calling him but takes no notice well when he gets to the end of the lead you can imagine the pain the lead locks and he does a 180 spin, then getting up and running again, we have thought of getting a long rope and tie it to the park fence to try the recall in the open field but it worries me in that he runs very fast and would do some damage to his neck, if he done like you said and just wandered in front of me this would make a great difference, I am now in the middle of training him to walk at my side using a short lead with the collar high on his neck then making him sit and stay before unlocking his long lead this is not going to bad, only been doing this since Sunday, I have used treats to train him I use liver & sausage but when he's outside he will not entertain food or toys he's more interested in looking for dogs but in the house and yard if I have a piece of liver he will follow me all over the house nibbling my fingers trying to get it "great" lol he will sit, stay, come, lay down wot more could I ask for but once out side the front door that's it, all training is gone lol he's just like a giant puppy and when he sees another dog he jumps around like on a pogo stick he's not dog aggressive he just loves to play,

Thanks again

Nettie xxx

Two good pieces of advice above -  try using a long line with a stick of some sort on the end - it's a lot easier to grab or stamp your foot on than the end of the line/rope when your lad heads off into the wild blue yonder <LOL>   And as said take him out hungry - give him a unique food treat that is saved exclusively for this training purpose only ;-)

Hard to know from your post but could part of the problem be that you didn't let him off lead even as a young puppy?  Or did he become difficult and off-lead exercise have to be dropped at a later stage?

Either way, the fact that he is currently restricted to lead walks only it is quite understandable that he's desperate to get off his mark at the sight of a possible playmate on the horizon.  Is there nowhere you could exercise him off lead in a restricted (fenced off) area?  If there is and you can enlist the assistance/company of a friendly dog - even just once a week - it would give you both a bit of time out from battling wills and a relaxed and quality experience.

Trouble with such a large (and to many unusual) breed of course is getting others to understand that he only wants to PLAY :o)  It's such a shame for you both - hope you manage to resolve your problems soon and have fun together - it's a great breed :-)

Teri    

Nettie,

If all training fails and you cannot install a solid fence there are now electronic type fences that emit an obnoxious (citrus, I believe) to the dog.  Like the bark control collars, if you are familiar with them.  When the dog gets too near the boundary line (a thin, harmless wire which transmits radio waves) the collar first emits a warning sound.  If the dog ignores the sound the collar lets go the spray.  

I've seen them on one or two web sites and I believe they are a new product. 

Stacey

Try training him to recall using two people. Stand far enough apart so that he doesn't run out of line before he gets to the other person. Take turns in calling him & rewarding when he complies. Once he is doing this reliably then you can try with just one person and build up to adding distractions.  (Actually, you can do this exercise with any number of people, e.g. you, your partner & daughter, taking turn to call & reward). Make sure that he is praised effusively and given a really special treat (use something that he is never given at any other time) when he obeys. Dogs generally find this quite a fun way to learn recall.

Hi

Thanks for all the great advice from you all, I am now on a mission to find a good long line so if anybody knows of any where I can buy one from I would be grateful, to put a bit more light on my post I don't know if this will help and to answer the question to Teri, Kai (Akita) was raised for the first year with my 10yr old rottie and was always taken for walks together off the lead, he didn't leave her side as kai starting to get older he found his feet as they do he did break away on his own and having to chase him, as you could imagine at 6 months old he was bigger and faster than the rottie resulting in putting him on a flexi lead so he could still have is freedom while not been able to run away to far while we trained him a bit more lol, We were also joined by a mate who has a jack Russell who he has played with since he was 10wks old this was all fine until my rottie passed away in early January and we very rarely see my mate out with his dog anymore due to her owner having some back problems and kai been big his little friend Misty is frightened of him now even though he's never been nasty towards her just his size I think, so now we walk on our own 2 peas in a pod lol, We have thought about getting another akita but until I get this escaping  & recall problem under control I just think I will be biting off more than I can chew  lol

Thanks again you are all great

Nettie xxx

Hi Nettie - a washing line/rope is ideal for this, but like I said before make sure you have something substantial on your end to hold/stand on to :-)

The fact that Kai shared his early puppyhood walks with your older dog is very significant - often youngsters will bond so much with the other family dogs for their main play that they then regard any dog as more fun than their humans.   This is not something unusual nor something impossible to overcome but it will take a lot of effort and patience.  Kai has to be retrained to believe that the best possible fun in his life in EVERY situation is you!

Is he toy motivated?  If so, try and find a "novel" toy for him that really excites him - say for arguments sake a frisbee.  Introduce this toy only very occasionally in games with you in the house & garden.  You must control the toy - never him (don't leave him with it).  Try and hype him up to enjoy games with THAT toy - then put it away mid enjoyment.  You're aim is to make that particular toy coupled with you his most enjoyable time so that eventually when he sees you with it nothing distracts him away from your impending game. 

You are trying for the end result (in the long term) of being able to free run him in public places with your controlling him by producing this toy :-)

You're certainly thinking on the right lines about not adding to your canine family until Kai's behavious is modified.  It really would be double trouble and with such a large breed could potentially ruin your enjoyment of exercising them.  If only dogs picked up each others good habits as quick as the bad <LOL>

Teri      

Hi Teri

Thanks again kai did go down hill fast when petra passed away, not eating and so on but I have always played with him and he loves his toys, I have also taking toys out with us but he's just not interested I sit on the field tease him with the toy throwing it taping it on his nose to no effect he just completely blanks me but in the house he so different he brings his toys to me and plays he bites my feet he just loves to play he's such a character, and when I go out without him he howls for hours when I come back its like he has not seen me for a month lol he flattens me running around he doesn't bother much with the rest of the family in this manner just me so I know he loves me lol as for his lead walking I was told by the breeder never to let an akita run free when he gets older as he has a high pray drive and will ignore me if he sees something he wants also repeated by all the top breeders and books, although I do know not all dogs follow their breed profiles to a tee and maybe he might be the one that doesn't go running off eventually after loads of training and some hair loss lol, I do find training fun and love to spend time with kai as I don't work and he's my only friend through the day I talk to him loads he just looks at with a tilted head then walks off lol, my partner thinks im nuts and I am lol, I just need him to come back when he is called so when he does escape out the front door I can shout him back with out having a hart attack running lol " im not very fit" which is why its frightening if he gets out while im on my own, The last few time he's got out the only reason my partner caught him because he stopped to have a poo or a wee up a fence lol, also another reason we started to walk him on a lead was due to a hip problem the vet recommended lead walking on the concrete to strengthen his mussels on his back legs and to let him pull me witch is hip is now ok but left him with some bad manners on a lead and now starting to get that under control.

Nettie xxx

great advice.
but i just wana add as well as training before feeding and feeding with tasty treats,
make sure you start off slowly as first with no distractions.once he has mastered with no distraction start adding distractions like another person or more lively area etc.
also with the food when he has perfected the recall at some instance reduce the treats and sometimes even no treats but a hug.

Well I am off for a training mission I am armed with a long flexi lead with a long training lead attached to extend it, kai`s favourite toy, and pieces of roast lamb so bag goes Sunday dinner well he's worth it lol, he's nice and hungry as he's had no dinner since last night, so watch this space or if I don't return im in hospital with my legs wrapped around my ears from attempting dry land skiing in that case you will see me on Kristy's home video's next week lol, Well wish me luck i am going to go for it lol.

Nettie

Hi everyone

Well I survived, it didn't go as bad as I thought me and my nephew Aaron went over the field tied the end of the lead through the goal post for safety put his head collar on he had about 20ft of lead, with my Aaron stood at the post with the dog holding the lead and feeding it through his hands to slow him down if he ran I walked away to a good distance and called him he did ignore me watching some kids in the distance but I kept calling him in a strong voice and squeaking his toy hey he came slowly but he did "kai actually walked"  I prised him giving his a big fuss and offered him his lamb but would not take it so I put it in his mouth so he would get the taste of it, Aaron pulled him back for round 2 and again totally ignored me after a few shouts again he came and again I made a big fuss but still having to put the meat in his mouth, but hey slowly slowly and im in no rush I think this might work " I hope" lol we done this for about 20 mins until another dog came over with no owner and started making a nuisance of its self so we rapped it up and we will do this every day until we get it right.

Thank you very much as you have all given me sound advice

Nettie xxx

Hi my westie bailey is exactly the same he runs off at every opportunity. We have been to training classes but he still ignores me even in the garden (great in house) when we go out with another dog he stays around but on his own he wont come back its at the stage I am scared to let him off. I have the same problem with kids leaving the door open and he is away he is 17 months is it too late to train him?

It is never too late to train and 17 months old is nothing.

Training the dog should be no problem, but how about training the kids at the same time?? ;)

Hi Bailey
Kai is 19 month old now and hes not doing to bad although i had a bit of trouble today i had a plumber in to fix my bath i didnt know he left the front door open as i did ask him to keep it shut because of the dog, He shouted me as i opened the living room door he made a dash for it the front door was open OMG my daughter was hanging on to his tail i traped his head between the door frame and my leg and grabbed his collar but it did graze my daughters arm on the raidator, again this is why i need to do some serious training,  LOL i would put money on you training Bailey to come before you can train the kids to keep the front door closed

Yes, indeed....sounds like some serious training is in order. It's a dangerous business.....your daughter hanging onto his tail. He just might turn and ravish her face and injur her badly. I'd sooner let the dog escape than allow that. Why not tie the dog somewhere if you must or crate it while you have people coming in and out in the meantime?

You can put a long line on the dog in the house and temp it to bolt out the door, then let it run and get suprised. When the dog starts catching on and the door is wide open....and he doesn't bolt because he knows what will happen, then you can praise lavishly and treat. Play a game. Make it fun for him to stay with you inside. Show him the difference between the good of staying in and the discomfort of running to the end of his line. Then start teaching him a command to give him permission to go out and show him what you mean. Finally after quite some time, you can try it without the line, but you better be quite sure, he's obedient at that time. And have some stupendous treats that he knows you have...Fillet mignon, T-bone steak, med rare...LOL. But I wouldn't trust him for a long, long time and keep working him.

In addition to that specific training for bolting, work on the basic obedience otherwise. Get him use to listening to you and watching you for his next instruction. Find a way to motivate him to want to pay attention to you. Practice every day. It must become a habbit for him, second nature to listen to you. So, go through all the skills. Here's a good site that might help:

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-prob.htm

Good luck.

Carrie

The method of attaching the dog to a long line and tempting him to bolt will, I agree, probably cure the bolting habit................

unfortunately depending on his speed and size it could also cure the dog of a living habit as well!

Hi

I agree with Tohme as I posted my concerns at the top of this post kai has always been walked on a flexi lead he does bolt on that and when getting to the end does a 180 spin that's with a head collar I would dread to think what would happen if I let him bolt on a lone line with a normal collar it would snap his neck, kai is a 8 stone male akita that runs very fast he would break my arms to let him bolt to the end of the line, I have bought a 24ft horse lunge line but use another person with gloves to slow him down before he gets to the end and using the head collar for extra safety, although if i put his head collar on in the house to try it he would just think im takeing him for a walk and does wait for me to come just sniffing in the garden while still on the flexi lead strange isnt it I am not saying that the method is wrong and it wouldn't work but maybe with a smaller breed with not as much weight behind it, I have been reading that website Carrie posted and there is some good advice on there thank you very much

Thanks again

Just a thought but i take it there's no possibility the dog is deaf?
Deaf dogs can seem totally normal as they can respond to vibrations on the ground and so on. Not saying he is, but if you do implement some training and he does not respond you c0uld perhaps look into this. Get some background info on deafness in dogs first though before you go to your vet.

I don't have all the posts in  front of me, so sorry can't remember everything, but if he bolts it may be worth looking at the problem from several angles, ie not just training, but "why" - is there a reason he would want to bolt? I take it he gets off lead exercise etc somewhere or is that impossible?

LIndsay
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HABIT OF LIVING?????

Well....duh....I assumed (wrongly I see) that most anyone would have the minimum common sense it would take to be careful that the dog doesn't run so hard that it would hurt himself and would supervise this. I imagined, if it were me, holding onto the long line and giving a little head as he comes to the end of it. Of course you don't let your dog kill himself. Of course you don't let him do this exercise on his own without spotting him as a coach would spot a gymnist. What do you think happens when you use a long line on a dog anyhow? What do you do when it comes to the end? You move forward and gradually ease him to a stop.

Oh Nettie,

I'm glad you like that website. It is one of my favorites as there are so many links and so much is covered. I do hope you can find a solution to this problem. I don't know another way to do it without risking his escape. Maybe there will be something in that website that will work. You could hold onto the long line and when he runs, run with him, gradually pulling him to a stop so that he won't do the 180 that was mentioned. Of course I wouldn't go for that. I'm not some animal abuser. But physically preventing him is all there is, at least in the beginning of the training. Or just physically adapt your house so he can't get out and forget training him. Or, a 3rd option might be to train him in all the other areas and hope that that will transfer into being applicable to this situation or habit.

That could be true that he's deaf. I would check into that, just in case. It's not that likely, but does he show any signs of never hearing anything? If you sneak up on him, is he suprised? Does he hear and react to you talking if he's lying down relaxing, like turning his head?

Anyhow, I wish you the best. I can't think of anything else.

I wonder why the professional trainer(s) here doesn't give you the answer. How about some clicker training, shaping behavior, all positive method?

Cant speak for anyone else, but for the majority of situations, i feel anyone helping needs to see the situation first hand. It's like with Hsinyi's posts, i know many of us could help her but for all the tea in China, we can't really do it via the net.It's quite frustrating for both parties i feel :)

I tend to think of net advice as just giving out ideas and hope the owners will research further or get hands on help. Re the deafness thing, some dogs are so adept at coping that is it not unusual for an owner to have had a dog for several years before realising something was wrong and getting further help via the vet etc.....dogs can learn to work out vibrations, air movements etc and of course they have their other senses which may develop further if they are deaf :)

If he were my dog, i would clicker train and build up attention behavour etc gradually but Nettie may need some more help with assessing the bolting etc. Just my view :)

Lindsay
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Hi

Thanks to Carrie and Lindsay I do welcome all the advice given to me although I don't think its kai at fault just my methods I have had rottweilers for 16yrs and always trained them my self I didn't find much problems with training them as they always love to please giving them a good fuss and treats made them feel so good that they done over and over till they got it right for me, and I loved to spend the time with them, however I have now changed my breed after my last rottie passed early this year now going to my first Akita what a big difference he has all the Akita traits independence, Stubborn ect.. as for his hearing I will get it looked at but honestly I don't thin there's a problem I have tested by when he's laid down or sat away from me making quiet noises whispering and tapping he does respond his ears turn back and he looks and me to see what im up to, he can also here me open a crisp packet or calling him from up stairs also hear somebody knocking at the front door from the back garden LOL, as for training I just have to find a way that works my breeder once told me that training an Akita is very difficult as they are not a normal dog and the conventual way of training wouldn't work but she has no advice for the recall as her dog are kept in the back yard and have never escaped as there is no gates and when she goes out their never off the lead to bolt, keeping Kai interested in anything is difficult as they say if an Akita cant see a reason for doing something then he will refuse to do it LOL and I believe this to be true when playing with his ball after throwing it a couple of times he just looks at me to say you go get it then im not LOL but I don't I just leave it and find something else to do, I did do a lot of research 2 yrs before I bought one so I did get into it knowing what I was doing, but still there must be a way of communicate with him I hope LOL there is a website with a few points to look at before buying one and the older he gets the more I believe them LOL as the website says..

It's best to know what you may encounter so here are some of the unknown aspects of the Japanese Akita. 

The Japanese Akita is an expert at escaping from any compound

These Japanese dogs can be very strong and self willed at times

They are selectively deaf

They are disobedience champions

The Japanese Akita can eat a lot and when adult, they can be quite heavy!!!

They "blow" their thick coat twice a year - shedding of which no vacuum cleaner can cope with

They are known for their expertise in gardening, producing numerous holes for pools all over the place

They are also expert tree surgeons, pruning any shrub down to its roots

BUT EVERY TIME YOU GREET THE JAPANESE AKITA, IT WILL GIVE YOU UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, AFFECTION, LOYALTY AND PROTECTION!

There must be light at the end of the tunnel jokingly the breeder just told me to give up and accept what he is LOL

Thanks again

:D Nettie you may find he gets on well with clicker training as several people i know with independent breeds swear by it, due to the fact that the dog thinks he is very much in control and that he can make the owner do things for him, he has no idea it is actually the other way round!!

Lindsay
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Hi

A clicker hmmm I have never tried one I have seen then in pet shops though I think I will give it a go, hell I will try anything do you use treats with a clicker as he's not fussy on food outside?

LOL. I love that about Akitas. How funny! They are beautiful dogs, but I'd have a hard time with such stubborness. I am sorry you lost your Rottie so recently. My heart goes out to you. That is always such a hard thing to get through. I wonder if the Rotties are anything like the Dobermans to train. I love my Doberman. He's very easy to train when it's obedience, a new trick, any task or work, willing and extremely quick to catch onto my meaning. I've never had a more intelligent dog and I've had a lot of dogs!  But it's the puppy behavior bratty stuff that is more difficult. That's when the stubborness shows up. LOL. Anyhow, I thought that was interesting about the Akita. They must be difficult in some ways, but they are lovely just the same. I know a guy who had one when he was young and he remembers it as being a very good dog. I'll have to ask him if his was stubborn.

Clicker training does use treats. It's not any different than regular training except that that distinct sound that only lasts a second is better able to mark a behavior than our words which are not as quick or crisp. So, the dog understands better what he just did that was wanted and he knows a treat is forth coming. With it also, you can click and reward baby steps toward a behavior you want. Often we are waiting for the perfected or almost perfected behavior and then rewarding. The dog can start to be disheartened and confused in the meantime before he understands. He can try and try and while he's not getting it, he's not getting rewarded, so it may not go anywhere for some time. Even without using clickers I think it's important to reward baby steps. I did that when training horses. Very important.

But with clicker training, you shape behavior. The dog does something that is close to what you want and you click and reward. When he does that a few times, you up the ante. Now he doesn't get rewarded for that. He has to think, "What in the heck does she want? I got rewarded for doing such and such. Hmmm. Maybe if I try this." So he gets a little closer to what you want. He does more than he did before. Now you click and treat that. And so it goes until you are getting exactly what you wanted, at which point you give him the whole bag of treats. LOL.

Another aspect of this is that you can be sitting there watching TV and not training persay at all. The dog just happens to do something you like, that you've always dreamed of him doing. Or he does something close. So you click and treat. And you just wait until sometime later he might do it again. Pretty soon, he makes the connection. The trouble for me is that I don't have the clicker at my fingertips all the time. I have not gotten into the habit. You need lots of them lying around all over the house and outside I suppose. And most importantly, the click has to come exactly at the time they're doing the behavior, not a second later. The timing is everythig. There is no point in using the clicker method if you don't get the timing right. Then it's as less specific timewise as saying, "good boy." That takes more seconds. Although, we all know that works quite well anyhow. LOL. The dogs are smart. That's how I've always done it in the past and it works fine. But I think the clicker idea definitely has it's advantages. It's fun. You can look it up online. You can also type in operant conditioning. There's good info.

Carrie

Hi nettie, you don't have to use treats; you can use a toy, a run, tuggie anything the dog really really wants; some dogs are not food orientated and are toy oriented; the dog will tell you what he wants most! :D

Yes, I should have said that. My niece's dog couldn't care less about food. He's obsessed with the tennis ball, so that is what motivates him. Whatever your dog likes best will motivate him. I forget sometimes because my dogs are all totally into mozzerella cheese and homemade liver treats. LOL. They'll do anything for them. LOL.

Carrie

Hello

Well I have just contacted a behaviourist who listened to my problem and I told him what I was advised by the people on the forum and what we are trying he also advised me to get one of them remote spray collars but still keep on with what im doing with the long line as this was good advice, so I have found a website who hire the spray collars but I have to wait for one to come back in so iv ordered a clicker starter pack, a fold up water bowl, nail clippers, a few toys and a bum bag LOL, he has just took my credit card from me and said the reason the dog wont listen to me is he's spoilt rotten  LOL he's worth every penny, plus the orders already accepted so he can keep the card LOL, but will the spray and the clicker work together? Or do I try one then the other

Thanks again

Firstly I hope that the behaviourist you contacted was a reputable one accredited to a professional body such as the APBC and not a self styled therapist from a franchise such as Barkbusters.  Most reputable behaviourists will only speak to owners via vet referral.

No you cannot use the clicker system and the spray collar together as the clicker system relies on positive reinforcement not punishment.

Also some dogs can react quite strongly to a spray of citronella, mustard or water up their nose............

There are no magic wands to training; just consistent, relentless, fair and effective handling.

Hi

I'm sorry of course your right punishment is not the key, He did not tell me that some dogs react badly to the spray and that's the last thing I want to do is hurt him, Well ill stick with the clicker and see how it goes as you say patience is the key, Anyway thanks again we will carry on the way we have been doing

I think something like the spray collar tends to be used as a last resort and it's a punishment but technically a distraction! A lot of owners get one and just spray willy nilly and start to use it for everything. The dog then either becomes very submissive or starts to totally ignore the collar.

Tohme is right, some dogs do react very strongly and my friend's dog ran into his bed and would not come out for 10 minutes; however her Flatcoat more or less ignored the spray although as she continued to use it he got a bit agitated. Some dogs are not too bad with it at all.

I think if you have a good trainer he or she will help you understand how to best use the equipment etc at your disposal and i suspect a one to one clicker session would be best :)  I agree again with Tohme that "relentless" training is what is needed, keep at it over and over. If things do not improve then you could look at the spray collar maybe a bit further down the line (but only with help on how to use it).

Lindsay
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