Hi,

I have a very large hairy Briard boy who is coming up to the age of 2, I also have a 7 year old  GSD bitch who is his best buddy and they would bundle and play all day, every day, if I let them. He is typical of his breed and has never grown up, I doubt he ever will, just one of his many traits that I love, in the right circumstances.
The problem, whenever we are out on the beach/park and he is off the lead, he has to go up to other dogs and try to play. I don't have a problem with recall as he comes back first time, but not before he has scared the living daylights out of them or evoked their rage. Whenever he meets one that isn't friendly he just runs round it and then back to me, totally unbothered by the experience. He has very thick skin. Yesterday, we were on the beach as usual when he spotted a spaniel puppy, he did his normal and went bowling up to it, she went straight onto her back and squealed showing subservience. (he didn't touch her and never does). After I apologised and put him back on the lead it ruined the whole day, as I didn't want to take the chance that he would scare her again. It seems he has to get it out of his system, sees a dog, runs up for a game, comes back when called, or plays if the other dog is up for it.
Once he has done this he is ok, but I am getting a bit fed up with his over exuberant behaviour. I thought it was a phase that he was going through as it didn't start until he was a year old, but he shows no signs of calming down. His recall is good, otherwise I wouldn't let him off the lead, I know that he wants to play and has never yet shown any signs of aggression, and other than never letting him off when there are other dogs around, I am totally stumped as to what to do. Whenever we pass a dog when he is on the lead he ignores it totally and if one comes up to sniff when he is on the lead, he just looks at them in a very laid back way. I have thought about never letting him off when there are other dogs, but think that this will just exacerbate the problem, also I am not solving it, just avoiding it. I worry that one day, he will get badly bitten. Also I know that if it was me in the other dog owners shoes, I wouldn't take kindly to another dog exhibiting his kind of behaviour.
In all other areas of life, he is obedient and laid back, sometimes he can be very stubborn and pigheaded but not generally and I understand why he is doing it, but I feel that it is like a child, if you ban sweets or some activity they like, the minute they get the chance to indulge in it when your back is turned, they will do it to extreme. Any advice on retraining him or experience in this area will be very much appreciated :-) 
ps
We do not have the GSD with us on these long walks/runs due to her health problems, so he is on his own but has never known any different.

If your recall is so good why do you not recall your dog BEFORE it has reached the other dog?

Tohme,

Do you not think that I have tried calling him before he reaches other dogs???? If that had worked I wouldn't be posting on here asking for constructive advice would I? I was looking for ADVICE, not questions that have obvious answers!
And if his recall was that bad he wouldn't be returning to me within seconds of the second recall would he? Compared to a lot of dogs that are off the lead in public, he is trustworthy and predictable. I presume your dog returns to you 100% of the time regardless of circumstances, when you request it to.

Please excuse me for trying to find out more information in order to give informed constructive criticism.

As for obvious answers perhaps if we all took that approach no one would bother to post at all as what is obvious to some of us is obviously not the same for all otherwise there would be no need for a forum!

As far as my dogs go, they are not allowed to make a nuisance of themselves; unfortunately I meet dogs like yours all the time.....................

My dog does not make a nuisance of himself. If anything, it is ME who is bothered by his behaviour not the owners of other dogs. I have never had any complaints, considering we are out walking 7 days a week, or are they all to polite to protest? I do not think so!!! I realise as a dog owner I have a public and moral resonsibility, it is just a shame many others do not.
if I didn't care how he behaved, I would not be trying to correct his behaviour, would I? He ALWAYS comes on second recall,sometimes the first, that is the problem. He has never jumped up at nor physically hurt another living thing.  Do not judge me, or others by your own so perfect standards.
What would you class as dogs making a nuisance of themselves, playing, having fun, enjoying life, being dogs? I understand the point you are making, and agree to some extent that there are dogs out there who should be properly trained, I myself have had 2 dogs (on leads) on 2 seperate occasions in the past attacked by other dogs off leads, where the owners looked on helplessly as I myself got badly bitten protecting mine. So instead of calling my dog a nuisance when you do not know even 20% about me or him, and as you yourself once said on here, "it is very hard to advise over the web when you are not in possession of all the facts" why don't you give me an example of what you would do in these circumstances. Afterall, dogs do not come "ready trained" and like all things in life, you have to make mistakes before you can get it right. By the way, I am not some dog owning novice, I do not profess to be perfect nor do I appreciate being patronised but do have some years of canine experience.

I'm sorry - but your dog (by your own admission) IS making a nuisance of him self - 'but not before he has scared the living daylights out of them or evoked their rage.' - I have a rescue Springer who has had some serious fear based agression issues - if she was on lead, and your dog came bounding up, having ignored your first invitation to come back to you, and 'scared the living daylights out of' my dog - he has made a nuisance of himself.  Please realise that not all dogs (and not always through any fault of their owner) can accept being 'bounced'........

The problem,  - The first step in addressing a problem is admitting you have one.

he comes back first time, but not before he has scared the living daylights out of them or evoked their rage.

If that is not making a nuisance of himself pray tell me what DOES constitute a nuisance?

Whenever he meets one that isn't friendly he just runs round it and then back to me, totally unbothered by the experience.

Yet - one day he will undoubtedly come across a dog and/or owner who will MAKE him bothered!

he did his normal and went bowling up to it, she went straight onto her back and squealed showing subservience - really, not fear?

I didn't want to take the chance that he would scare her again. - I am sure both the spaniel and the owner were very relieved!

I worry that one day, he will get badly bitten. - And whose fault will that be?

Also I know that if it was me in the other dog owners shoes, I wouldn't take kindly to another dog exhibiting his kind of behaviour.  - Exactly!

You have never had any complaints?  Maybe because you were so far away their words could not reach you or they have found, like a lot of us, that words make no difference!

ALL dogs should be properly trained; there are people who are afraid of dogs, whose dogs are nervous, being rehabilitated, post operative or who are under control because if they were off the lead your dog would probably have an experience that could ruin his nature for good.............

I don't know you or your dog you have described what you allow your dog to do and I have described why I and many others find it unacceptable.

The answer is as you say, obvious; keep your dog under proper control and train it.

Yes Tohme, I have admitted I have a training issue, not problem, which why I am trying to address it No issues there then.

Thank you for educating me, your advice has been most useful and constructive.......not :(

I have to say this sounds like the recall is on his terms, when it should be on yours :(  I think you need to work on this until he is coming back as soon as YOU decide it's time, not when he says 'OK Mum, in a minute, I'm not finished putting the wind up this one yet!' ;)

I think perhaps you may just need to be a bit more selective as to who is is allowed to run to - and call him back when you feel it may be problematic.

I think too i would in fact practice about 6 times on each walk, recalling for fun and with big rewards and then sending him off again. Possibly too if you recall him every time you see a dog, he will learn to check in with you; you can then decide whether to let him carry on and play (teach him a release word such as Free or OK) or whether to return to you and be put on the lead for a short while.

I let my dog race around and play as she is very good generally with other dogs, however she does turn to look at me before she goes off and that is what would be so good for you; that "can i Mum?" attitude. Some dogs i know are too pushy for her, as she will then play too pushy, or maybe just look a bit unfriendly and so she is called to me. As long as you still let your dog interract and give him good reasons for coming back to you, it should work to gain some more control. But will take a bit of time to train.

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay,

You are right :-) I think that it is retrain time again :rolleyes: I used to train with food, but as he is such a gannet, it got to the stage where you couldn't walk 2 steps without tripping over the big lummox as he was snuffling for food, so I gradually cut it down without any problems, until recently.
Back to basics for me, thankyou, :-)

Back to basics is never a bad thing... :)  If you have problems with him "snuffling" for food, put it in a special container or bum bag, or somewhere he knows he cannot get to it, and don't allow him to mug you   Also he will hopefully come to understand that he is never just given food, but that he does have to do something for you to get it.

Hope it goes well, keep an eye out for other dogs and owners as muchas possible and try to "catch" your boy by pre-empting him, ie just before he is about to react to their presence rather than just after.

Good luck

Lindsay
X

I guess what I'd do in your shoes, if I wanted my dog to be able to run and play off lead, is to put a super, lightweight long line on him so he barely notices it's there. And when he starts to go for another dog, say, "no.....let's go" Or whatever your word is for a casual come...in other words, "stick around here." And I'd bring him back with the line. Then reward, make a big fuss and give some treats so that he decides it's really every bit as much fun to stick around you as it is to go after the dogs. That is a lot to expect I guess as he sounds like he just absolutely loves to visit with dogs. But you could then, if you see that the other dog is up for it and the owner is too, give a specific release word or command that gives him permission to go see the dog. Show him a contrast between your granting permission and not. I think if you're consistant, he'll eventually get the picture.

I do not judge you, as I have the same thing on occasion with my dogs. I live in a very low populated place and hardly ever run into anyone. But we're out in the hiking trails here in the mountains and occasionally we'll run into someone else. There's no way I can handle 4 leashes nor would that be any fun for the dogs....or me. Normally, people here are dog lovers, especially the ones with dogs and aren't worried about it. None of my dogs are dog aggressive and they don't bowl into the other dogs, just run up fairly close to them and the little dogs yap. But there is always a chance that a dog might get sufficiently irritated as to bite the other dog, so if you and I can get our dogs trained to a very, very reliable, 100% of the time recall, like Tohme's dogs and possibly a few other's dogs, then we'd be in the pink.

Carrie

Hairypooch, I have had this problem with Morse and have it under control now. Does your boy have a fave toy if you dont wish to use treats to train? If you can get him eye popping excited by pulling a treasured item out of your pocket just as the boy eyes another potential pal, you can call him to you for a game or at least head him off by throwing it the other way - if he has a retrieve ( dont know any Briards, so Im not sure if they do). As Carrie describes I use a long line in busy places where the Mottled Missile can get into bother such as a popular beach or a field with lots of game in it. If you use a plastic clothes line its cheap, it dont tangle round his dangles, and you can guage progress by cutting it shorter as he does. I also use lots of fun games like doing a twist, chucking treat through my legs for him to get, hide n seek etc to keep Morse focused on me and at a controllable distance. In case you dont know Morse, hes a Pointer X Greyhound aka the Horrid Huntin Hound who used to think heel meant in the same field as me! :) Another thing which helps us now is the running down - he sees another dog, starts running towards it, you call down firmly and he drops. Morse did this one day by himself and I rewarded him so well hes done it ever since on seeing a dog he dosent know and waits for permisision to approach. Its also really impressive when you get it right. Now Im sure Tohme dosent mind me quoting her " Be ruthless and relentless" on recall, even put up to 50% of his food in your pocket and if he comes first time, he eats, if not, tough - but that is the last resort.

Ruthless and Relentless are my middle names Lorelei :D :D :D

"it dont tangle round his dangles" "In case you dont know Morse, hes a Pointer X Greyhound aka the Horrid Huntin Hound who used to think heel meant in the same field as me!"

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE IT!!!! YOU'RE TOO FUNNY!!!!! I'M DOUBLED OVER, TEARS STREAMING DOWN MY FACE. IT'S TOO EARLY IN THE MORNING FOR THIS. I NEED MORE COFFEE. DON'T DO THIS TO ME AGAIN. LOL LOL LOL

CARRIE

Hi Lorelei,

Thank you for the pointers (no pun intended) ;) I think I will continue to use food, as that is his orientation, he likes to carry things in his mouth, but is a Briard when it comes to chasing toys, (thats not my job, mum) so that won't work.
I started to use a long line last night on the beach, along with treats,and you should have seen the look on his face, sheer bliss :rolleyes: Ironically, whilst doing the practices another dog came bounding up to him, I called him to get his attention and he came and sat without me having to reel him in and the other dog swiped his treat!!! Lol and then proceeded to bark at him, to say he was confused is an understatement. But the good thing is he didn't react or jerk towards it, the only problem we had after that was getting the other dog to go away, its nice to know that I am not the only person who has a "nuisance dog".
It sounds like you have come a long way with Morse, and all credit to you. Murfee has never actually ran away from me and will not let me out of his sight,or me him. I now just continue using the usual commands such as sit and wait so as not to confuse the poor soul :) Consistency being the order of the day

He is a fast learner so hopefully it won't take long, Briards are not mentally or physically mature until at least 24 months, as he has only recently started doing it, I suppose its another stage we have to go through, how many more? I ask myself How old is Morse? He sounds like a character

Glad to hear your getting some results already with Murfee keep at it, you will have a set back when the line is off or reduced at first, but just plod on. Morse is 2 next month - I cant believe it, the time has fled in!  Morsey boy or Manic Morse came from the pound with a lovely nature, gentle and friendly, he liked people but found them hard to understand. He loved other dogs but had no canine etiquette and used to rush them in excitement. Yes we have come a long way, and its only now the dust has settled a bit I realise just how far.

Carrie,

Thank you for your words of wisdom. I did exactly that last night and food was of more importance, so we'll keep at it. I live in a very rural place and we have acres of fields to walk in, but I deliberately take him to the beach and other places so as he doesn't forget socialisation :) with my breed, if they are isolated they can become hostile to others and obviously I have avoided this at all costs.
I was trying to trace his gradual change in behaviour back, apart from him going through more chemical brain changes, he used to completely ignore other dogs, on and off the lead, but has had many dogs run up to him, it seems that he now realises it could be good fun :) or he's thought "if you can't beat them, join them" :rolleyes:

Well, good! I think he'll come along as he matures and with your good diligence. It sounds like you live in a lovely place too. Yes, that socialization is vital. I've had to drive long distances every day when Lyric was very young in order to get him use to busy city streets and crowds and all kinds of things. There are a few places close that have a handful of people around but very, very often I would drive 45 minutes to an hour in order to get out and walk up and down sidewalks through town, up elevators, near train tracks, grocery baskets on wheels, electric automatic doors, the vet's for a visit, open places, tight places. Yes, quite a chore but worth it in the end.

Some breeds do take a longer time to mature, for sure. Your dog sounds like a very good natured chap, very playful and sweet.

Carrie

Thanks Carrie, :) :) :)