How can you re-arrange the pack order with a dog who seems unwilling to give his Alpha position up? After contacting the breeder of Ollie (cocker spaniel) she told us she thought he was snapping at other dogs because he thinks its his place to protect us. (me,partner+ son)
We are doing the usual, and have been for some time;
no going on furniture
no going upstairs
feeding after the rest of the family
using a halti because he pulls on the lead
no toys unless we say
nothing in life for free
He knows usual commands sit,stay,wait,lie down but does them in his own time unless you reinforce them (i know he knows them because if you are giving a treat he obeys straight away)
When he is in the house and on a walk, if you call him and he is otherwise busy (on a sniffy trail etc) he looks at you (i swear with a smug look) as if to say you can wait till I AM ready.
Is there something else I can do to make him give up the position he seems reluctant to let go of?

How old is he Nicki? :-)

2 and 3/4 Leigh. Being first time dog owners we mistook a lot of his behaviour early on as 'cute puppy behaviour'. Only after reading lots of books and web sites did I realise it was dominant behaviour. (wish I had read the books first :) )

Sounds like Max - we're only just trying some of the techniques you have already tried. Good luck with this one I wish I could be more help. We misread Max's behaviour as cute puppy behaviour and are only now trying to correct this at 16 months after trainers, behaviourists galore and some poor advice from the breeder. Max also knows all the commands but is very reluctant to do them unless hes bribed with food or a biscuit. Our new behaviourist is going to get us to mix with some people and dogs when we have Max under a bit more control and has exhausted his manipulative behaviour.

I have read all about Max :D. Has he destroyed his long line yet? :). Its nice to know I am not on my own, surely it can only get better!!!!!!

<<<He knows usual commands sit,stay,wait,lie down but does them in his own time unless you reinforce them (i know he knows them because if you are giving a treat he obeys straight away)>>>

At 2 [$ 3/4's, he's a grown up now Nicki. While treats and toys are great for 'bribing' ])
in the first place when you're teaching anything new, once your dog actually knows the command then that's the time to start giving them less and less.
In other words, to appear as your dog's alpha, when you give a command (without treat) make sure you only give it the once. To keep repeating it until he does it (or doesn't do it as the case may be) gives him the idea that he's boss. Give the command once, if he doesn't do it first time, put him into position gently but firmly whilst saying nothing....then praise. He's just got into the habit of obeying a command as and when he pleases...to keep asking for a sit or whatever instead of just asking the once reaffirms his belief he can do it in his own time. The same goes for the recall. If you have to say it more than once before he appears or comes back to you then I'd put him back on a long line untill he's coming first time, every time.....JMO though! ;)

We've had to take his line off him because he either uses it as a toy - turning it into a tug game or growls at my mum and dad when they pick it up and he's decided to start chewing it when hes bored.

Why do you believe he is dominant? I've always had a problem with the 'dominance' theory and having recently attended several behaviour courses it seems that 'dominance' is a thing of the past. Have you considered talking to a trainer? Is his behaviour really a problem or is it that you just dont want him to snap at the other dogs?

I can't agree with you there Bec. I've heard "Dominance" explained away in all sorts of ways, but to a simple person like me, "A rose by any other name!"

John

Bec.. After reading books by John Fisher and Jan Fennel everything just pointed in that direction. I do find his behaviour a problem as I dont feel in control. The last dog he snapped at was a staffie. We were on a local field and 2 men with said dog appeared, (Ollie dosn't usually bother about other dogs unless they approach). I shouted to the owner that he was sometimes snappy and tried to recall Ollie to put him on the lead. Unfortunately the owner had already let go of the other dogs lead and it came charging over jumping all over Ollie who turned round and started snapping. The owner told me I had 10 secs to get Ollie away before his dog would 'turn and rip him to shreds', I managed to get Ollie back (still snapping) but to be honest it frightend me to death !!
I have considered a trainer but funds wont allow at the mo.
I have considered a muzzle, but want to sort the problem rather than hide it.
Thanks everyone else for your advice.
Does anybody know of any good training classes in my area. Accrington/Lancs

Ask your local veterinarians for any good obedience classes Nicki. They should know what's in the area. If my memory serves me right, there is a good one off the East Lanc's RD, just not sure which way in relation to Accrington.
Obedience classes are great if you're wanting to establish 'leadership' with your dog again. It wil also help you with those recalls that definately need sorting...one day your dog may 'snap' at the wrong dog which is why IMO, until he's recalling first time every time, he hasn't earnt the right to be off lead!

Thanks Jacqui..that is exactly what I am afraid of. I will contact my vets in the morning, and start taking him out with a long line attached. :)

I wouldnt worry about him snapping at that staffie if a dog did that to any of mine and they snapped I wouldnt have been surprised.
If he is protective over things then he has placed too high a value on them. If it is toys then leave toys all over the place so they become 'mundane' and not worth guarding.
When I say trainer I mean you local dog training classes not a behaviourist.
With regards to dominance I have always had problems with it because I do all the 'taboo' things with my dogs (sleep on bed, go through doors first, play tug of war games and let them win etc) and have never had any problems.
Dogs are opportunists and will try things to get what they want. If a particular behaviour works then they will repeat it. This doesnt mean they are dominant just that they know what needs to be done to ensure they have a better life! Basically its learned responses to particular stimuli whatever they may be.

Basically you have supplied your own answer. He is boss because you have told him so! Any command you give Must be obeyed immediately not sooner or later! Treats are a good way of training an exercise but particularly with a dominant dogs should not be continued after the exercise is learned. After all, if out for a walk and we find we have forgotten our treats we still need our dog to come!

Any time when you are thinking of giving a command, think two things.

1/ it is a command not a request!

2/ Are you in with a chance of it being obeyed?

If the answer to 2 is no and you are not in a position to enforce it, think whether it may be better not to give the command in the first place. All orders which are ignored devalue your authority.

The easier going the dog is the more you can relax these rules but the more dominant the dog the more these rules need to be followed. Dogs need to know that they have no part in the decision making that is the human’s job.

Regards, John

nicki

how long have you been following these rules? it can take a while for it
to all come together (in my limited experience) so don't write it off.
also make sure you're giving very clear signals to your dog:

* own personal space (which you may invite him into when you choose)

* gesture eat twice a day, done by everyone in the house at the time

* don't put up with pulling on lead. either stop and wait for him to
return to you, or walk in the opposite direction *every time* he pulls

* you're in charge of toys you play with him with. he may have his own,
for his own private use! never play tug-of-war.

* ignore him when reuniting. the time can be lessened as he calms down
more. reuniting happens even when you've just been in the bathroom, not
only in the big outdoors.

* when he alerts you to danger by barking, say 'thank you!' in a happy
voice, take charge by looking out of the window, answering door, etc.

* don't let him go through doors or race upstairs ahead of you. you go
first, you are the leader.

these things have helped us, but it has by no means transformed our dog
into a totally, perfectly obedient dog 100% of the time. it has made him
much easier to communicate with, and more respectful of us. i'm sure you
will reach a better understanding with him soon. try not to get overly
stressed by it.

you say if you have a treat he obeys straight away. he's got to think
that there's always a chance he will get a treat for doing something
you've told him to do, even though many times it will be a lovely stroke
and praise (which he might come around to thinking is quite good too,
eventually). why should dogs like following commands just for the heck
of it? it would be nice if mine did, but........

so i'd say the way to do it is, at first, do what he wants - do always
give him a treat (and lots of gentle praise at the same time). when he
is, for instance, coming to you consistently when you call him, it is
time to start reducing the number of times you give him an actual treat.
it's got to be a very gradual thing though, because he is a clever dog,
and obviously he knows when he's not getting a treat for something he
got a treat for a minute ago! but if you do it slowly, he will remember
that his co-operation sometimes gets him something tasty.

of course every dog and owner is different, so that's just my
twopenn'orth!

Hi Nicki

How can you be sure that your breeder is correct in saying that Ollie is snapping to protect you and yours. Does your breeder know the dog well? Only another reason could be that Ollie is snapping because he is afraid and feels the need to defend HIMSELF. These are two very different reasons with similar symptoms.
Just something you said when you said that Ollie 'turned around snapping' which doesn't strike me as a full on aggressive assault from a dominant dog. If it is fear biting then you will have to adopt a different approach to correcting a dominantly aggressive dog.

Try putting him in 'submissive' positions to impress upon him that you are the boss. here are two:
1. lay him on the floor, on his back, place one hand on his chest and one on his face and hold him there for at least 30 seconds, if he resists, tell him 'NO' firmly, if he is still, ppraise him. I would do this when he is displaying dominant behaviour, or a couple of times a day.
2. hold him, back towards you, under his forelegs, forelegs off the ground standing over him, again praise for staying, 'NNO@ for wriggling.
Another thing we were told to do, which worked for us was, along with everything else, when he is naughty, pick him up and put him in a quiet room on his own for 2 minutes, don't say anything other than 'NO'. He should learn that his behaviour will get him nowhere.
RE growling on walks, you could try shaking a can when he growls, or turning to go home every time he does it.
good luck,
emily :)

And what if, when he is pinned to the ground, he bites? Think about it do you consider yourself to be 'dominant'? No? Then how would you react if someone pinned you to the ground?

I am going by advice from the experienced trainer at my dog obedience class, which is repeated in three of the behaviour books I have. I would not expect my dog to ever bite me, and when you say 'pinned' to the ground, it sound aggressive, which it is not, you are simply holding them, giving praise for staying there, I tickle Morris's tummy with one hand, and behind his ears with the other.It has worked well for us, but it is left to the discretion of whoever reads a post to assess whether the advice is suitable fore their own situation and dog, I am simply advising a technique which along with many other things (suggested by others) helped to calm down my dog who, prior to this showed extreme dominant behaviour.
emily

I had the same problem, an extremely dominant puppy who at just eight weeks old would not let us touch his tummy, collar or paws without nipping us! Under the guidance of an experienced trainer, we used the so'called 'pinning down' technique, although like you say Emily, not in an aggressive way, and it really worked wonders, he soon became less dominant and is now really soppy and easy to live with. He was also possessive over his bed (even though he sleeps on our bed) but sitting in this soon made him realise he wasnt allowed to protect it!

He also liked to barge through doors and upstairs ahead of us, we became firm about not allowing this, which may also have helped him to realise that he was not in charge.

even though he sleeps on YOUR bed ???? surely a no no with a dog that ever had an ounce of dominance

I know, I know :-(

It goes against all the rules but it's so nice to have them on the bed that we had to work round that. We seem to have gotten away with it. Although we did make him stay in his own bed on the floor until he was a year old (mainly in case of accidents!)

My family think it is disgusting to have a dog on your bed and that they should have a kennel outside or be in the kitchen at least, so maybe I am rebelling!

Once again, this is not a 'battle of strength' or 'pinning down' as loisedog has also found, this can be a good calming technique. Morris was extremely naughty constantly when he was a puppy, trying to stand on our shoulders, protecting his bed, always stealing everything and anything, consequently I had to rush him to the vets twice after eating poisonous substances. No-one would come to our house because he would tear around nipping them, and he was so fast we couldn't catch him, then if we did he would writhe and nip us, but hads been advised not to separate him from guests as it may cause aggression..We couldn't groom him as he would attack the brush. he has never been allowed upstairs, but every 30 seconds, all day would try to go up them, then stand at the top. he was unable to be let off his lead, because he wouldn't come back and he was not only driving me up the wall, but wasn't a happy chap himself as we were constantly having to tell him off. Though I am a great beleiver in praising good behaviour, not punishing bad, he was literally NEVER good, apart from during training sessions. We sought help from dozens of people, and along with not allowing on furniture, only playing when we wanted to, only giving praise when we wanted to, continually changing direction on walks and taking toys so that we had contreol of the games and the walk, excluding him from our company when he was badly behaved, always feeding him after us, standing in his bed twice a day, and many other things that I can't remember, but it took up our whole life for a while. this gradually improved his behaviour, and calmed him down, because he was constantly hyper as well. We used the 'positions' when he was very hyperactive, and they always calmed him down.
I realise that there are fashions and phases about dogs behaviour and terminology, also about training techniques, but this calm, passive technique of holding and praising my dog worked, and there can be no dispute about it, he actually enjoyed it as it was soothing and calming, not a matter of me pinning him down and shouting 'YOU WILL OBEY YOUR MASTER!!!' and thankfully we now have a lovely, well trained, obedient (90% of the time:) ) little dog, who still has an enormous personality, is happy, and loved by everyone, especially us.
emily
ps sorry about the length but felt I needed to explain fully. :)

<<< and when you say 'pinned' to the ground, it sound aggressive,>>>

Maybe it was confused with another technique used out there called an 'alpha roll'!

JMO, putting a dog into a submissive down is fine and can be a good way of calming things down or getting your role as leader message across.
The problem comes when it's a larger, maybe more dominant dog who refuses to 'down'....almost always turns into a battle of wills and that's when it could turn nasty. Trainers/Behaviourists of old have advocated this 'roll' as they wrongly thought it was what the more dominant did....They got it so wrong though...the submissive roll is a behaviour/action offered to the more dominant dog...the d/dog doesn't force the submissive into anything. The submissive dog offers it, or a fight may ensue....this is where many owners/trainers have come unstuck and got bitten as a result.

With all due respect Emily forcibly holding an animal can be deemed as 'aggressive'. Why do you believe you have to be dominant over your dog? I'm not 'dominant' over mine and never have been. They do all the things that they 'shouldnt' if the dominant behaviour people would have you believe it.
All that has happened is that a dog has learnt that a particular behaviour results in an outcome the dog wants. Therefore it is vital to make the dog realise that using that particular behaviour does not result in the outcome the dog wants. How will pinning a dog to the floor make him understand that? What if this behaviour DOES cause the dog to bite out of fear regardless of what you feel shouldnt happen? The poor dog on a one way trip to the vets? Who's fault would that be then?
Since when does violence resolved with violence actually work?

A battle of wills is one thing but it should never degenerate into a battle of strength! You might win the battle but the chances are you would loose the war!

John

I should have added that to the 'turning nasty' bit! I meant the battle of wills may turn to a battle of strength and unless it's one you know you can win...then you may find yourself in big 'doo-doo'! :o

Greetings,
I was going to stay out of this discussion for fear of getting labled as a "One solution fits all" advocate :D But since I've been reading about two methods of Dominance training that disturbs me....for the same reasons that others have already brought up.
I thought I"d restate one method that's worked for me & others that I learned in the States. It's easy & stress free. It just takes a little time out of each day.

This is from AKC basic training to use as a first step prior to the beginning of training --- called Dominance-Down. It's worked on mine and other 'rescued' dogs to kind of relax them and acknowledge who is in charge. This will likely help for any dog to accept you as leader. If you're talking about dealing with other dogs, that's another tactic..this just deals with humans. No pain, no stress...well, not for long on the stress bit, at least ;-) It can help the dog to realize that you will take command in situations and it doesn't have to react.

Figure out about a half hour of free time on a daily basis. This is at first, as things start to get better, you can ease up to every other day..and so on. Don't schedule it around feedings or walks. You and your dog go into a room away from others. Be relaxed about it. Put tv or music on. Take a book/magazine with you. If you think you need her lead, use it, but make no issue out of it. Have him/her sit and then lie down.

Don't talk to her other than to give the stay command just one time. Then slowly rest yourself so that you are lying with her neck under your right or left arm. It's easy to lean on her. Whatever works so that you're comfortable and your body is slightly lying over hers, kind of as if she's an armrest. This has to be comfortable for you to be here for about 15-20 minutes.. At least, that's your goal to work up to. She might lie quietly for 5 minutes and then decide to get up. Don't let her, but don't say anything. Just pull her back down by the underneath of her collar or where the leash is hooked in.

Your dog is there at your convenience, not hers. She could go to sleep. Doubtful at first, but let her, if that's what she chooses. Use the time to read and relax. If she does struggle, make her do what you want until she physically relaxes. Then just give her about five minutes to let herself get used to the idea. Then sit up. Work up to the longer time.

Don't let this end on a negative and stressful fight. Thats why you work up to the longer time period. Make it positive for both of you--that's why you adjust her start time for this.

When you end this time alone with her, just sit up, but continue to ignore her. When you leave the room, don't say anything to your dog. Let her think about this new change of status for a bit. If you have any other problems with her not understanding that she is lower than the family members, have everyone do this on a regular basis. Just keep things as calm and low key as you can.

This has basically worked for everyone that I've known who has had problems with their dogs and placement in the pecking order-- all sizes, ages, and genders. (around 40+ in about 6 years since I've known of it).

There are several things that I like about this method.
1) low key & daily interaction -- helps to build a bond
2) Face is not near dog's mouth
3) Looming & making a dog uncomfortable is not used
4) No force or stress involved (anything that requires a battle of wills is trouble, in my book)
5) Results can be seen usually within first two weeks.
6) Freely given information & not trying to sell you a program :D

good luck,
toodles

Thanks everyone for your advice.
Some people have actually got me wondering if it is a dominance thing. In the house he is very good, does as he is told and not a problem.
(except from sneaking on the furniture when we leave the room) He is wary of strangers, this started unfortunately when we were burgled last year, but generally he comes round after initial mad barking session! On walks though he is forever scent marking, walks round with his tail carried high and suffers from selective hearing!
All the dogs he played with as a puppy,he still does,and gets on well with. If a strange dog comes along and dosnt bother him, he dosnt bother it, but if it comes to sniff and he takes a dislike or it overstays its welcome that is when the problem occurs. Usually he is ok with older dogs and bitches, ok too with puppies but the problem seems to be with young dogs (entire or otherwise). When I spoke to the breeder she asked if he had ever been attacked as a puppy, which he had. On his first ever outing two terrior type things really went for him and we had to literally kick one of the dogs to get it off him (it had hold of his neck). The breeder suggested this possibly could have stuck in his mind and was another possibility for his behaviour.
Does anyone have any other comments/advice or are you as confused as me :)
PS. I met a fellow dog walker this morning who says he has earned the nickname Mad Ollie. :o