Id like to learn more about agressive dogs , why do they attack dogs for no reason ? how do you deal with an agressive dog if its hanging off your dogs throat?

>> why do they attack dogs for no reason ? <<

I don't think they do, they have a reason it is that we do not understand what it is/was often because we are too close to the situation. It is the reason why people are advised to seek the help of a trainer/behaviourist who can see the situation first hand as without seeing what happens it is difficult to know 'why' or how to deal with it.

It is true that occasionally there do seem to be dogs that are just evil and there is nothing that can be done, it is probably caused, as it is in people, by some sort of aberration in the brain and if it can't be cured the afflicted dog or person has to be removed from where it can cause others harm.

In cases where there in no health nor hereditary reason it is probably the experience of life that is at fault and with care can be corrected. It is not easy to answer your question because it is the same as asking what makes people bad tempered or even why am I in a bad mood, most of the time we do not know and it takes someone with special training to try to sort the problem.

I think you will understand more if you forget the term 'aggressive dogs'.

ALL dogs have the ability to behave in an aggressive manner.

As far as i can see, barring those who have medical causes, NO dogs 'attack for no reason'....... if you want to understand aggression in dogs, you need to find that reason.

Aggression, whether its fear aggression, dog to dog status aggression, actual desire to harm another dog, or just physical posturing and noise, is just another tool in a dogs 'phrase book'.

The most frequent, in my opinion, reason for 'attack without warning' aggression, is that the dog has previously been punished harshly for giving a warning, in the misguided hope that he will understand that it is the DESIRE to aggress rather than the warning that is being punished.

Em

Malamutes seem to incite other dogs to growl at them ...we discussed this recently on another forum. The more experienced people put it down to the fact that Mals have a tendancy to be dominant anyway and will look (eyeball) other dogs. Also, they have pricked ears and a high set tail which other breeds can often take as signs of aggression

Bullies tend to incite other dogs to growl at them, i was once told by a bully breeder it was all the heavy breathing they do, dont know if theres any truth in that though.
Nikki

the reason i ask is because my dog keeps getting attacked from behind  or another dog running up really fast and biting her so i cant see any reason for the agressive behavour . if you see where im coming from .Someone suggested getting the glands checked which i did there fine .
ive met a few other people who have been in the same situation , whats the best way of dealing with these dogs when they attack?
Having had only friendly dogs I cant understand what makes a dog so agressive if just another dog is walking infront.
Im trying to understand ,the reason as to why i know there are plain nasty dogs there but do you think its more about how they have been brought up?

There are many many reasons for aggressive behaviour in dogs.

Sometimes dogs can 'invite' aggressive responses from other dogs due to breed characteristics, IE the collie stare, boxers facial markings, bouncy nature, etc.

Sometimes a dog will have learnt to associate the presence of other dogs with punishment, or even something as mild as the lead being tightened by a nervous owner. This can mean the dog will 'get in there first' and attempt to get rid of the other dog by behaving aggressively.

Sometimes, it may be that the dog has been attacked, perhaps even just once, by another dog, and that also instigates the 'get in there first' reaction.

Unless there is a medical reason, i DO believe there are no dogs out there that are 'EVIL' or 'NASTY' or anything else. Those are human ideas, and are not useful in the discussion of aggression in dogs.

Dogs will learn how to get out of distressing situations, and if they hit on using aggression to do this, and it works (and thats the important part) then they will repeat that behaviour.

A lot of dogs are walked in the same place everyday, and you can get a situation where each dog in the park believes that the park is his own territory. This can cause aggressive reactions when two such dogs meet.

All dogs have different characters. Some just seem to invite aggression, by being over submissive, by being rude and bouncy. Some are more naturally dominant with other dogs (do NOT confuse this with so called dominance with humans, that does NOT exist).

I dont know about it being as much to do with how they are brought up (because no one in their right mind WANTS a dog that displays aggressive behaviour) but certainly the experiences that dogs encounter in their lives will, like the rest of us, have an effect on the way they approach certain situations.

There is an interesting discussion on another forum, although somewhat hard to read due to one persons in ability to READ what is being said, that might help you, i think its titled 'fear aggressive dogs', its on Dogpages.... havent read much because im not a member on there though.

Hope that helps. There are a few good books out there about dog behaviour, Jean Donaldson's  The Culture Clash, is a good start to understanding more about dog behaviour.

Em

It's not always to do with the 'way a dog has been brought up', but can be a lot to do with past experiences.

Having said that, somebody who lets a dog charge up to others on lead and behave aggressively is not likely to be a responsible owner, so it could well be down to the way they've brought their dogs up.

Some dogs will have an encounter with a dog like that and then be frightened of it happening again. The strongest motivation for a dog is to stay safe. A dog would not use aggression unless it felt justified (barring medical conditions) because it's a big risk to take, you don't want to get into a fight if you can help it because you might come off worse off! It usually means the dog has to feel sufficiently threatened to use aggression. A lot of the time they will come up and say 'don't mess with me or else' which can look like aggression but isn't really. It's still not acceptable to let a dog behave like that because it can still create the same problem in the other dog.

If the other dog is on a lead, it might be that you walk slower than their owner and they are being marched closer to another dog which they don't like, they can't get away so they have no option but to use aggression.

How badly has your dog been injured? Can you try talking to the owners of the dogs to ask them to keep their dog under control and seek help from a trainer or behaviourist?

Other than allowing your dog off lead so it has a chance to escape and keeping vigilant, there isn't a great deal you can do to prevent it. You could try taking a water pistol with you on walks to spray at dogs who approach in an unfriendly manner, but that is technically illegal. You might also frighten it and make it behave more aggressively.

Can you change where you walk?

Does your dog always tend to get attacked from behind, Lovelylady? If the dogs are attacking out of the blue there may be some signal she is giving, or perhaps she gives out a subtle signal by accident, (eg her markings may predispose her to look aggressive) so other dogs want her out the way. Are there lots of dogs doing this or just one or two. For instance, if you drove miles to a strange place to walk, do you still feel fairly certain that she would get attacked...and are the attackers mixed sex or one or t'other?

It must be very upsetting for you.

In the end aggression is about control, and aggressive dogs trying to control their environment and what is in that environment.

It's possible you may find www.K9u.com useful; Doggiedoor has trainers and behaviourists on there who try to help owners with problems including aggression (esp. if the owners have elected not to seek the services of an in person behaviourist) and may be able to answer your questions more fully :)

Lindsay
X

Re your point

< Unless there is a medical reason, i DO believe there are no dogs out there that are 'EVIL' or 'NASTY' or anything else. Those are human ideas, and are not useful in the discussion of aggression in dogs>

Whilst in the main I agree that "evil" in dogs is predominantly a misnomer, all species, just like humans, can occasionally produce a "bad" gene - not necessariy something that would be picked up on by a vet or trainer!

Take for example that in certain breeds a small number of bitches have to be muzzled in order to prevent them harming (killing) their young - a totally unnatural response surely?  Breeders who breed from these bitches are contributing to the procreation of a "bad" trait - in nature this "line" of course would not be perpetuated as the wild female dog/wolf etc would obviously have killed off her litter and therefore not continued it.

Likewise what about the stud dog who would kill his progeny if the opportunity were there?  In the wild his line would not be continued either!  How many breeders know if the stud they have carefully selected for health, type and of course temperament would actually be safe with newborns?

Teri

    

I'm very interested in your post and I'd like to know more too.  My dog is always on the lead but he's the attacker.  It's almost like when I walk him he is looking for trouble at every corner.  If he sees another dog he goes barmy - if he was off the lead he would attack it.  Even dogs that take no interest in him whatsoever.  Dogs that owners say are normally placid get agitated when mine barks his head off.

I noted the post that said some dogs give off signals, maybe mine does.  But he's not an aggressive dog in the house or with other dogs that come to my house, or that we visit in their house.  Maybe its a street thing?

I've read countless books, been to training classes and behaviourists (where he's behaved better), he's just the old same when he's out walking (bad!).  I'm interested in the patterns and the causes.

CG

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/casehis.html

yes we drove about a hour away for a walk and she got attacked . I talk to lots of people on our walks and alot of them seem to have the same problem .
The only thing i can think of is shes got a docked tail. but she always has her ears to the ground smelling i dont even notice these dogs come up thats how quick they are .
Ive only been takin her on road walks since we went twice after that but road walks arent as nice . dont want her to be bitten again .Im more annoyed then anything .Im thinking of getting another dog so hopefuly this will help the situation .

Just to get this clear in my head....

Your dog is on the lead, and other dogs race up and attack.

Do they attack before she has any chance to interact with them?

I hate to cast aspersions, but if you can fail to notice dogs approaching your dog, then is it possible you have missed some body language SHE is giving out?

What do YOU do when another dog approaches  your dog?

Em

Its interesting that others have the same problem on your walks as i would have said that for dogs to display or attack in the situations you have described would not be that common! I would then have suggested that perhaps one or two dogs in the area have learnt to fend off other dogs by this method as that would explain the other owners having the same experience, but that would'nt be the case if it also happens on totally new walks which it does.

Out of interest do these dogs actually physically attack, and maybe bite, or do they just display, lots of noise and run off? What does your dog do?

Lindsay
X

Edited to add: i've just seen you have said they do sometimes bite.

yes thats right shes on lead and they just appear often there owners are far away . i do notice my dog as most of the time im throwing her ball .
Im always aware of whats happeneing around me i dont go out alone . on talking to people who are having the same problem alot of the same dogs ive come across they have too.
for example theres a jack russel with a man who walks there once his dog raced up  lunged at my girl fortunatly he was on his lead the man said  said phew hes already been hanging off another dogs ear today .
so speaking to other walkers ive heard this same dog with man has bitten there dogs and even themselves .

my girl got quite a deep wound from the same dog that bit another dog and elderly couple owns him  it then went on to bite the owners elbow .
at the time my girl was bitten it was my sister walking her i was infront watching the dog , my dog at the time had her toy in her mouth which she dropted and picked up just before it bit her. 
this is what i cant understand a dog thats doing nothing but playing with her toys or ears and nose to the ground walking .

I had a nice walk when i took her back after the last time she was attacked and met someone with a very submisive dog , i wish i had of got her number we could have walked them together .
But the last time i went a man screamed at his dog to get to his side he said oh your lucky hes killed a small dog like yours  , i havent been back since but i really dont like road walks , i feel were being pushed out . and i really want to mend her mentaly at the moment shes scared stiff of dogs .
i dont normaly do anything leave her to wander in the park shes on her extendable i dont drag her in but she always stays by my side . I do keep a close eye on the dogs when they come close

just to add now when dogs come near she jumps out the way and wimpers then if they carry on she rolls . sad isent it

what do you do when she reacts to other dogs submissively?

How long have you had her (ie since a pup or is she a rescue) and how did you socialise her?

There are a lot of nervous dogs out there, and a fair few of them will react quite badly to an overly submissive or 'grovelling' dog by being quite pushy and aggressive.

I have to say though, you need to change where you walk.  Also, i do get the feeling, you may be over reacting a little bit, possibly because you dont quite understand whats going on with dogs body language.

If your dog really had been badly attacked, she would have needed some serious vet treatment. 

Dogs are well able to cause massive amounts of damage to each other, and us, should they choose, but they are also VERY capable of threatening but not actually doing. Most dogs will do the minimum they need to get a result.

Even when one of my dogs has been in an actual fight, both parties screaming, yelling and biting one another, there was no ACTUAL physical damage to either dog. That is because they were fighting over territory (i let my dog out into my garden, and there was a male stray there waiting.....).

Dogs can and do cause small minor injuries to one another just playing.... my littlest lurchers backside is full of scrapes and scabs, because he and Abby play chase, and if he lets her catch him, she WILL bite his bum!

Em

i dont do anything when shes submisive because i want her to get used to dogs again.as long as the owner says there dogs friendly
ive had her since a pup she used to like other dogs untill she got attacked she even stayed at friends houses and they had several dogs .and reguly used to play with the neighbours dog.  we took her everywhere and she met other dogs and people and was happy , since the attacks she seems to be scared of other people too . Ive had lots of dogs but agressive dogs were never a problem  just lately this has happened. the damage wasent alot she had injections but really it shouldent have happend should it , I now have a scared dog.im sure she can read other dogs body  language even if i cant and shes scared. 
How do i fix the problem shes scared? All i can think is if we get her a friend it may boost her confidence and another dog may think twice about attacking .

hmmmm

Personally, id get a behaviourist to come and see how she is with other dogs.

I wouldnt get her a friend, as in all likelyhood she would just teach the new dog to be submissive, or end up being bullied by it. I cant see it solving any problems there, just creating more.

Ive got three dogs, one who can be bad with new dogs, one who is absolutely fantastic, and one who really couldnt care less either way. None of them have learnt from the others to behave differently.

What happens if you walk her off lead? I know you say the lead is left quite long, but she will still be aware she is ON a lead, so that could be having an effect on her behaviour.

If the majority of other dogs in this park frighten your dog, and attack her, then im afraid i would not walk there again. Never mind being pushed out by others, its your dog that matters, her walks are supposed to be fun, not about who has the right to do what and where.

Em

Hi
My lab got attacked tonight by a dog we know really well. We go to a local park that is purely for dogs. I have got to know the owners and dogs that use it at the same time as me. There is a weiriner (sorry i really don't know how to spell it) who is normally the most lovely dog, he is 16 months old. Well tonight we where there first and then he came in and straight away went for my pup, at first i thought they where playing but he was being really aggressive. He didn't hurt her but he had snapped at her throat. She ran off and didn't seem bothered. The owners of the weir seemed a bit shocked as i was. Then Buffy (my dog) tryed to come back to me and the other dog went for her again, i decided that the time had come to go but the other dog woldn't let her get near me or his owners. If the two dogs where away from us they acted like they always do, walking allong sniffy ect but as soon as Buffy came near us he went mad. After about 5 mins of this the owners of the dog took called him back. And i was able to leave.

I have decided that i am not comfortable walking up there anymore and will find somewhere else to take the dogs. This dog isn't the only dog up there that has really bad days. In the long run it is safer for my dog not to go there anymore.

Debbie

aww debbie that must have been a scare for you . i was really shocked the first time it happened .mabe your right debbie we love our walks but mabe its not safe for us , im sticking to roads for now .there arent many places around here to walk.
whats worse is we take my girl at the weekends on our boat , the greyhound that lays on the pontoon ( wooden walkway) has already tried to attack her once aparently he dosent like dogs ,fortunatly they have been away for two weeks so shes been safe :) so im dreading going back when hes there . i cant avoid him though we have to walk past him. im sure ill come up with some way of sorting it though .
Mabe if i was to walk in the park again i shouldent leave her on the lead she walks beside me and is scared of other dogs so wouldent go up to them . what do you think ? offlead that way she can get away if needed

Not sure lovelylady, i know that Buffy (my dog) can mostly get away off lead. She tends to run under a bench and as it is normally bigger dogs that go for her it slows them down, she also does this when bigger dogs get to rough for her in play. But when she runs to far away from me i do worry that if they were really to attack her i wouoldn't be able to get to her in time to help.
Where as if she was on the lead i would be right there to help, the problem i found once while she was on lead and a terrier was playing with her (very roughly) was that 1) she got worried and went on guard, i supose to protect me, that in turn made the terrier try and fight her and 2) i got tangled in the lead and ended up on my bum.

I am sure that someone who really knows what they are talking about will be along soon.

The problem with me walking her somewhere else where we can go off lead is that it is a 15 min walk there and 15 min walk back which would give 15 mins in the park, thats fine but my bully pup wouldn't be able to come because it's to far for her. That would mean walking them seperatly, which is fine by me ( i could really do with the excercise) but the 2 dogs hate being taken out seperate.

Good luck
Debbie

Why don't you join a training class or clicker class (go first without your dog to check it's well managed and that all the dogs are friendly) and see if you and her can make some doggy friends.

I imagine you're very tense when other dogs approach her now (understandably) and that wont be helping her gain confidence at all.

If it was all in the same place, it could be because one or two dogs were allowed to attack others and then the victims started to develop defensive aggression.

With the ball, it could be that when she dropped the ball, the other dog wanted it (they don't get ownership concepts!) and then when she picked it up again it it told her off. It's impossible to say what triggers it.

It doesn't sound as though she is giving off signals though, because from what you've described the owners of the dogs know what their dogs are going to do and are not surprised. It sounds more as though you have a lot of irresponsible owners where you walk more than anything else.

I have come across aggressive dogs while out walking, but out of all of them only one has been offlead, maybe I've just been lucky.

If you have a car, maybe you could drive somewhere more deserted where you are unlikely to meet anyone?

I do feel for you because it must be awful to see your dog upset, but it does sound as though the incidents have not been serious which is some consolation.

yes we have been lucky thank god . its a real shame because even if I do move route someone else's dog will get it :(  my vet seemed to think there were alot of irresposible owners where i walk he said hes seen a few dogs that have been attacked from the same park .
Has anyone got tips for us whos dogs get attacked? i read on the pages about the dazer but im not sure if its directional like they say?
Im still thinking of getting another dog i dont think it would pick up her habbit ( if you can call it that) fear is better worded i think .  if i walked them seperate for quite a while . she may pic up the new dogs confidence , I know when she was at my friends house with toby another spaniel she began to be a bit more confident .

It's true she might, but with that extra confidence she might have the guts to fight back, or get in there first.
I would work on changing her perceptions of other dogs first, because if you bring a new dog in, and she gets up the confidence to snap at an approaching dog, the new dog could well join in.

I think adding a new dog to the mix will bring in an unpredictable element, it's much safer to work with her first, and then when she's fairly happy with strange dogs and not being extremely submissive, then bringing in another dog would give her somebody to play with.

If  I walk with my friend and her bouncy Flattie, and he pushes my girl, she will snap and tell him off but with no teeth touching etc and i think that's fair enough; that's dog just talking ;) However i do feel that from what you have said it is the other dogs in the area who seem very undersocialised or aggro for whatever reason. If this is the case then you are absolutely right and the other dogs have a big problem.

It may be that there is a bad training club in the area, or else that there is no training club, or that these particular dogs have not been taken to a good training club. I cannot believe that stupid man who screamed at his dog to go back to him and then told you that you were "lucky" as his dog had previously killed another dog!!!!! He should have had his dog on a lead and sounds like a complete idiot.

If that is the mentality of some of the other people, then i would get away from there quick smart and maybe drive to better places.

Also do remember that you can get in touch with the dog warden if necessary who may be able to help if there really is nowhere else to walk. If other people have to walk dogs which are not friendly, they should at least have them under control!

I agree with another poster, if there is a good dog club near you do go along - perhpas you could try something like agility and have some fun and also exercise your dog.

Lindsay
X

Im working on on driving to other places i have to pass my test first :D
But hopefuly ill be driving soon i rely on others to drive me about at the mo :P
I dont think theres a training class in my area . well it sounds about right for the type of owners im coming across . Ive never had a problem before and ive owned alot of spaniels . The dogs were up against are often very young mabe a year or so ,
it may be the fact people are now getting dogs as a fashion statement . Ive noticed afew of people i come across saying oh cockerpoos are fashionable we were thinking of getting one . I dont have a cockerpoo! :D

a girl i know has just been bought a newfoundland because they thought it looked good and such and such a star has a dog that looks like it.its very nice but it may well prove a problem because she has no garden and i watch her strugle picking him up hes only 3 and a half months old . I think she may need a slightly bigger car soon. I hope they can find a training class around here there fist time dog owners.I might ask see if there is a place around here .

Thanks for your posts :) hopefuly I can sort the problem out . I just need to sort out her problem with being scared of other dogs , if i went straight into a class i think she would flip out get loose and try and escape , shes not a snappy dog at all i think she would more then likely pee herself before snapping .

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you passing your test soon.
I'm pleased she's not a snappy dog, but I'd still be careful because she only has to be pushed to snap once and she might learn it's more effective than hiding. Lots of people think that there dog hasn't got it in them to be aggressive, but it's part of natural dog behaviour and ALL dogs are capable of it, whether they show it or not. If she does snap and the other dog backs off, she'd be far more likely to snap quicker next time, and then it could move on to snapping at all dogs regardless of whether they are trying to hurt her or not.

Most good trainers will give you one to one training first, they may have their own dogs who she could meet and get confident with before moving her into a class situation. It depends on the trainer whether they will have suitable dogs or not, many take on rescue dogs with behaviour problems because they've got the skill to sort it out, so they might not always have stooge dogs. Either way, your dog could be integrated into the class at her own pace, she could start off by just hanging around near the door away from the other dogs and work up to being around them.

Where abouts are you based? Check the apdt website for details of trainers in your area.

thanks for the replies ive  had some really useful info from you all :) and you have all been really nice thanks :)