It may be too that Honey was the top pup in the litter, like mine - the strong, confident, pushy one. If this is the case, she would naturally be more difficult as an adolescent than say, the middle or bottom pup, whatever her breed.

In this case, what is needed is pretty much what you are doing, which is to work through the difficulties. I can tell you are very stressed, and there will be bad days with your girl; we all get them, me included. I find when this happens,  the best thing to do is to give yourself a "chill out" period for about 5 days; just enjoy your dog and in your particular case, avoid trouble spots such as narrow lanes etc where you may meet small dogs.

I think if i am right, the problem stems from the fact that you want her to meet other dogs and worruy about the future if she isn't allowed to, but at the same time the meetings are fraught and upsetting because you lose control and also Honey gets OTT.

I feel she just gets too excited and almost forgets you are there when other dogs appear. This can be sorted out with training ideas mentioned in i believe your last thread relating to this, BUT you do need someone i feel to help you implement this because A) you lack confidence in your outdoor dealings with Honey and B) training is in some ways a "mechanical" skill, whether using haltis correctly, or clicker or whatever.

If only training were prescriptive, it would be so easy to say "do X, Y and Z" and all will be well. All dogs are so different, and so are all owners :D

I agree that in some ways you may be overdogged, however i also think you have the capacity to overcome that if you are really determined. Not sure what else to say, i feel everyone who has contributed has a point, but it can get very confusing listening to everyone else.

Lindsay
X

i completely disagree with people telling you that you have the wrong breed for you.
all dogs what ever their size need to be trained to a standard the owner is happy with,they all have good points and bad.
i have a leo who is around 3 stone bigger than me and i am smaller than the average person just because to some i am out dogged doesn't mean i don't have control.thats what training is for.
you are upset and stressed but you are also trying to do your best with a very big pup,im in the similar situtation with my leo.if others were in your situation they wouldn't be so quick to judge.don't give up with time thing's will/do get better.it will be worth it in the end and you should be proud of your self,to many people give up for a quite life.people who take on very big dogs don't go into it lightly,if you did you would be asking for trouble.giant/big dogs need to be train to a higher standard because of their size and what they are capable of.
saying that i would never beat my dog the last thing i would want is for him to fear me,like all owners i want him to follow commands given to please.
please get her back home and start again,i am doing this with him to make sure he understands what is expected when i request it.it isn't easy with a big pup that doesn't seem to pick up commands easy or loses them over night.
have some quite quality time with her then start again you have years ahead to get things right.
not every dog is the same even in the same breed or litter,my boy is the top in the litter and needs firm handling around other dogs,there is no point to me hitting him as he wouldn't feel it any way.i think you could put her in a kennel for a break and let every thing calm down and start a fresh when you get her back.it is hard to find the right method for dogs that are big and slow to mature but i would never use physical methods.you will lose because of the dogs size don't under estimate them as a lot of people seem to.
she needs to bond with you and work for you not any one else thats what makes your relationship with your dog special for any owner,she is not out of control or you are not a bad owner you just need to iron out the problems with time and training like all owners.
i wish you good luck with her and please stick with it as it will be worth it in the end.

Thank you very much, Marie - it really helps to hear from someone with a similar type of dog, who has a clearer idea what you have to deal with!
Hsin-Yi

Lindsay, you're absolutely spot on when you say:

"I think if i am right, the problem stems from the fact that you want her to meet other dogs and worruy about the future if she isn't allowed to, but at the same time the meetings are fraught and upsetting because you lose control and also Honey gets OTT."

I couldn't have put it better myself. I'm also worried that if I don't do something now to correct her behaviour, Honey get more than just OTT when she meets other dogs and she will actually get aggressive. If I followed the breeders solution of never letting her meet another dog again, then of course, there would be no problem but I just can't accept that that is right, which means that I WANT to find some way of changing her behaviour so that she CAN meet other dogs in the future. If this means that she needs a bit of physical force to show her I mean business (according to experienced Dane people, including ChloeH!) then I'm willing to try that - but I find walking around with a rubber pipe a bit too extreme for me. There must be a more "brain not brawn" way to show her that I have the authority.

"I feel she just gets too excited and almost forgets you are there when other dogs appear..."

That is exactly the problem. I really, completely cease to exist when she sees another dog. And I HAVE tried all the usual recommended things like distracting her with treats, favourite toy, game, etc. but maybe Honey is just uncommonly stubborn as she just ignores all the things she woudl usually be interested in, when there is another dog there. It's sad as when there are no dogs present, she is very well-behaved and is focused on me. I need a way to get her attention, rather than BEGGING for her attention - as I feel I am doing it at present - although I don't wish to do so with a rubber pipe.

Anyway, thanks again - I'm looking into behaviourists in Auckland...
Hsin-Yi

Hi Lindsay - forgot to add that I definitely think that Honey was the top pup in her litter: the strong, confident pushy one. She seems to bounce back from anything "scary" very quickly and always approaches other dogs with very dominant body language (tail up, ears erect, neck arched, strong stare, almost a swagger as she goes up to them!) and will always take toys off them.

I'm so sorry you're having this stress. Your dog won't learn how to respond to you any better than it was, by being with someone else. They'll make her so "hard in the mouth" (excuse the horseman's expression) that she'll be insensative to you.

I think Terri's last post is spot on. Go back to the basics with her. Don't introduce too many new things all at once. Pick your battles. Speak firmly, but don't hit your dog. I have a Doberman pup as you know and they too can be very boistrous and have a mind of their own sometimes. But it is warned to never, ever hit your Doberman. This can ruin a dog. You hear these stories about dobermans turning on their masters and everyone blames the breed. You cannot push around certain dogs. There are other ways to get the idea across to them that you are the one in charge.

You can find out a lot of things if you read more and talk to a variety of trainers. Don't rely solely on this message board. Use various sources. It was mentioned to find a Dane message board. That might help.

I think you can do this if you can stand the hardship in the meantime. Honey is still very young. I had a bit of struggle with my GSD way back when....he was more exciteable than this Dobe by a longshot. They do grow up. Your pup is only 9 months? Lyric is just 1 yr this Fri. He calmed down a lot in the last 3 or 4 months. I know they're different breeds, but maybe some similarities. You are so concerned and conscientious that I know you can get through this.

Carrie

hello

i find it unbelievable that you left her with them! amazing as you say you were so shocked by their methods slighty contradictive would'nt you say? i would have walked straight out of the place!

have a word with yourself!

j

That is very good advice. Danes are often far smarter than given credit fr and some are doing very well with clicker training.

something fun to do together too ,to build up their bond.
something to try then i think!!!!!have you ever thought about that hysini? get a video & see if you like the idea,it certainley wont make her worse,& honey will learn to figure things out to get a positive reward FROM YOU,this will make you more exciting too!

Please get honey back asap for your own sanity your obviously worried how she will be treated. I would spend some quality time with her and just enjoy being with her. Honey will sense your moods and if your frustrated, sad, angry or happy she will notice and act accordingly mostly acting up if your tense. Have a break from training for 2 or 3 weeks and concentrate on honey whilst out of the house. Go somewhere where theres no dogs and practice sits, recalls and anything else you can think of. I get the impression that she listens to you in the house but once you get through the gate to outside she switches off, this will help you get her attention outside with no distractions then slowly build in the distractions. I agree a smack round the backside is somethimes needed but never with an implement your hand will suffice and only to get her attention once you have that she will stop (hopefully). The reason i say have a break from training is she is used to the routine so a change is needed to keep her guessing if she doesnt know whats going to happen next it might start her thinking best start listening to mum :)

I do sympathise with you, as i said before, but just out of curiosity, and i truly apologise if i've got this wrong, is Honey still left alone most of the day during the week as you have to work? I seem to remember that you stated that she was left alone alot and were pleased that she was not showing any signs of separation anxiety.  Could this maybe why you're having problems with her? I'm not sure if it has anything at all to do with anything, but maybe more knowledgeable owners could advise. Like I said, if I've got it all wrong, I'm sorry.

Hysini.....

I feel for you , i really do, you seem to me to be trying your best here, and you dont know which way to turn.

Go get your dog back off these people, do it NOW!

Ok, a dog sometimes needs a smack, some dogs will respond (two of mine do) favourably to the occasional wallop, (on the backside, WITH my hand, never with an 'item'). But Honey is NOT going to learn to behave for YOU by being with THEM. Simple as.

Ok for the first few weeks when she comes back she might behave better, but it wont last!

I get the impression, and i do not mean to offend or upset you, that you are probably quite a quiet, gentle person.

I think YOU need training, go to an assertiveness class......... dogs NEED to know that what you say, you MEAN.

My dog rocky is a little git for this... if i MEAN it, he will do it, if i dont convey that i mean NOW, he will carry on doing his own sweet thing, until i DO mean it. To tell him that i need something done INSTANTLY, i use a far deeper, more assertive voice.

If i tried the same on Abby, she would never speak to me again! (saluki x).

Please, go get Honey back, and then Chill Out....... Learn to MEAN what you say, be scary with your voice if you have to be, give her a smack if you have to, but MEAN it.

Honey is young, but she has more than likely worked out taht she can do as she pleases with you, and the only person who can stop this is YOU.
Dont forget though, like I and others have said, she IS very young, she will not mature any time soon, and you do need to take things slowly!

Good luck

E,

I've done a bit of a search on Auckland trainers and there seem to be one or two who might be helpful with a bit more knowledge, who perhaps would go out with you and Honey with some one to one training. Paula Denby Gibbs of Dolittle training sounds useful, in Kemeu Auckland (now you are going to tell me you have tried her) <g>.

Lindsay
X

Hsyni, be more confident in your abilities.  Honey is at her worst. She is a teenager.  I have been around dogs since I was born and I am now 44.  I had re-homed many dogs and managed to re train the worst of them.  Had various pups including working springer from pup (now 9) with no problems.  I thought I knew it all and could manage any dog until.........Lucy, my long awaited newfoundland bitch.  I have had two newfie boys - lovely easy dogs but Lucy was the child from hell.  Such a defiant, spirited delinquent.  She is quite the opposite of the lovely laid back temperament, not the slightest nasty just full of fun and wilful from the moment she wakes to the moment she sleeps.  I do love her but if she had been my first dog I would not have got past 6 months with her, but from having the other dogs I knew that they calmed down after the age of two so I just hoped that even though she was ten times worse than any previous dog hopefully she would improve with age, and she has.  Now two and a half she is almost endearing!! still a tearaway and still tries it on but she is so much better.  One of my freinds had a hyper child that was a real struggle to bring up but now he is 19 he is a real credit to her.  Harder than most children but worth it nevertheless.  Silly I know but I kept thinking Lucy was similar to my friends son.  People passed comment on her abilities but she was in no way to blame for the way he was when young.  Every child and every dog is unique.  Some take a lot longer to get through to and mature.  In all this waffle I was trying to say well done for putting in so much hard work, dont give up and keep at it.
PS, definitely continue to let her mix with other dogs.

Floozy - thank you so much for telling me about your experiences with Lucy. It really helps to hear from other owners of giant breeds and feel that you are not alone and your puppy isn't the worst Demon Puppy From Hell in the world. Also - it's really made me feel better to know that even someone experienced like you had trouble with a "difficult" puppy and therefore, as a first-time dog owner, I haven't gone terribly wrong but rather, Honey is actually tough work and would have been a handful even for an experienced, confident dog-owner.
As you say, Honey is not the slightest bit nasty but she can be a real cocky bully! People (humans) all meet her and melt at the expression on her face and gush about what a lovely dog she is - unless they have a dog themselves, that is, and then they think she is a monster bent on eating their precious darlings. I look at her in the evenings, curled in front of the fire, and she is so sweet and submissive at home that I can't believe she is the same dog who goes beserk when she meets other dogs. It's really like a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde thing!

Anyway, thank you again and I will try to have more confidence in myself.
Hsin-Yi

Thanks, Lindsay, for going to so much trouble! I will look her up -
Hsin-Yi

No problem, obviously i have no idea what she is like but i would be hopeful :)

Lindsay
X

Hi theemx,

:) I had to laugh at your comment about me being a quiet, gentle person!! :)  Actually, I'm known as a loud, volatile, bossy person! I have always been known to have a strong personality and to be very single-minded when I want something and I am definitely not one of those meek, gentle, "nice" females!! (ask my husband!)  :) And actually, in every other area of Honey's life, she is very meek and obedient to me - I'm definitely the "alpha" at home and even pretty much on our walks (without a dog present) and she is completely verbally responsive to me, whereas she disobeys with my husband more. But for some reason, all this confidence and authority seems to drain away though when we have an encounter with another dog. I don't know why and that's one reason I'm so frustrated as well - with myself - as I always felt that I could handle any dog, even a big, boisterous one - because of my own forceful personality. Although I definitely didn't want the top puppy in the litter, I wasn't too worried if my puppy had a bit of spirit as I thought I could deal with it. And yet, now I'm finding that I'm nervous and unsure of myself when we meet dogs and panicking about how to deal with her. I think the main reason was that incident we had in Obedience class with the poodle, when I was shocked that Honey could behave so "aggressively" (even though it wasn't real aggression but I just never expected Honey to snarl or growl) - she had never been like that before. I know it was stupid and naive of me never to expect Honey to snarl or growl but really, that is what I thought and when she did, it was like the floor was pulled from under my feet. My sweet, trustworthy puppy suddenly seemed to turn into a snarling, out-of-control creature! It was a bit like suddenly realising that your mother could be a murderer - that kind of feeling. And I guess it took away my trust in her and also ate away at my confidence... and subsequent unpleasant incidents with dogs only made me lose even more confidence.
You're probably right and I need some training for myself, to regain my assertivenes with her when I'm out with her and we meet dogs. I promise you, though, that I really don't need any more assertiveness in any other area of my life! :) I just don't understand how such a normally bossy person like me can lose it all in this situation??
Anyway, thanks again -
Hsin-Yi

Hi, bobo, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, Honey is still left on her own most of the day because I work - I leave at 8am and am usually home by 4pm (I always rush home as soon as I can). I have thought about whether this is contributing to her problems but unfortunately, there is nothing I can do to change this lifestyle at the moment. I could be wrong but I really don't think this is the cause of her problem with dogs as she really exhibits no signs of distress - it is the routine she has been used to since she was a tiny puppy and she actually seems more disturbed on weekends, when we don't follow this routine. Also, sometimes, when I am home, I do put her out in the garden as well so I can get on with work I need to do in another room where she can't see me - and when I check on her, I always find that she has gone to sleep. The few times I've been "off-sick" at home and done this, I find that she plays for about 1hr and then goes back to sleep at 9am, until about 12noon, when she gets up and plays for another hour - and then sleeps again until about 3pm, when she gets more restless and seems to be waiting for me to appear. The last hour is usually when she gets "naughty" and chews things in the garden!
Hsin-Yi

Well hsinyi, I also live in NZ and I would have to ask why have you got a pup and then work full time. I have three dogs one of which is a 5  month old pup (Labradors)  I also live  and work on a farm and it would be very very rare indeed to ever have a  farmer beat or disipline a working dog in the manner you have stated.  My dogs spend all day with me, but if for some reason I have to leave the pup at home by herself I will generally come home to holes dug in the lawn, gumboots chewed and what ever she can get her teeth into ripped up and she is so pleased with her self, what she is telling me is that she is bored!!!  You may not agree with the way the breeders are sorting out the problem but at least they are, what if your Honey  decided   there was no difference between a small child  and a small dog. And no New Zealand isn't the same as the UK 50 years ago, in fact I would have to say  that we lead the world in many area's, you really don't want to go down the same  track as the the UK has  where on a Farm you need to call a vet to do very very simple procedures, after talking to vets that have spent time on their  OE in the UK  it convinces me  more each day that  we are not the  behind the world in way shape or form

Hi Pat,

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way and I did not mean to insult NZ - I love it here and it is why we decided to leave the UK and settle here. And as I said, I never thought that the comments were right - that NZ IS behind the UK in any way. I know it leads the way in women's rights and conservation and lots of other things. However, what I meant was that I found it very shocking to see the breeders advocating a method which I had always been taught in the UK as out-dated by now and that most people have moved on to other ways. Using physical punishment is just not condoned anymore in the UK and I had always had it drilled into me that when/if I had a dog, I should follow the more modern attitudes and methods. And my breeders aren't the only ones - I have spoken to lots of Kiwis (including dog-trainers) who seem to follow the more "old-fashioned" approach to dog training and seem very happy with that. In fact, my breeders keep saying that I am reading books 20yrs out of date and insist that they know better - which I find very unfair and a bit ridiculous. But anyway, I do agree with you that they are trying to help and I am very grateful for that. I am just worried because I don't agree with their methods and I don't want to have to continue using them when Honey returns. I don't agree with hitting my dog with a stick and I CERTAINLY don't agree with keeping her in total isolation from other dogs - which is what they are insisting. And those two pieces of advices DO seem to lag behind what is currently supported in the UK.

As for getting Honey when I'm working - well, I know that is not ideal and if financial circumstances/opportunities permitted, I would love to be like you and work from home. I know you will say that it is selfish of me to get Honey when I knew I would be away for large parts of the day and you're right - I am - but lots of dogs get used to that routine with no problems, particularly if they are raised with it as puppies. In fact, I was told that it would be better to get a puppy than an older dog, who would have more issues with separation anxiety if it had been used to company. I also checked with the breeders about it before getting Honey and they were happy with the fact that I worked (and they ARE one of the most respected breeders, by the way). I have actually waited a long time to have a dog, so this isn't a selfish impulse. I have wanted one all my life and certainly held off having one for 10yrs because of work - but if I were to wait until I am a stay-at-home wife, then I might have to wait until I'm past 60 - and I guess you're right, I am too selfish to wait that long. I have only considered Honey because I am now working shorter hours, essentially, and I also spoke to lots of people and seen lots of dogs who have happy lives with owners who work full-time.
Plus, I genuinely believe that Honey is not suffering from separation anxiety of any sort - on the few rare occasions I have been off-sick at home and left her to her usual routine, I noticed that she would play for 1hr, then go to sleep at 9am until about 12noon, when she would then get up, play for another hour, and then sleep again until 3/4pm, when she would usually get more restless and wait for me to appear. She is left with stuffed Kongs and treat balls and big marrow bones every day and when she was younger, I had a "animal nanny" come at lunch time to play with her. She is not really destructive, like how you describe your puppy - she is now 9 months and in her time with us, has only slightly chewed a corner of the back door, chewed some branches from one tree and dug one shallow hole to bury her bones. Considering her size and her teething phase and stuff, that's not a bad record really and so I don't think she is getting bored or upset about being left alone. I don't ever leave things out like gumboots for her to destroy! She gets her toys and things that she can safely chew and play with and she seems content with that. But most of the time when she is left alone, she sleeps.  It is what she is used to and finds security in. If anything, she seems to find the weekends more disturbing when she is mostly indoors with us and we don't follow her usual routine and that is when she gets up to trouble and steals things and chews things she shouldn't and generally gets more hyper. And she will actually ask to go out to the garden herself and sleep or play by herself. Otherwise, her weekday routine seems to keep her much happier - she comes in at 4pm when I get home, has a play session and training session, goes for a walk, has a rest, has dinner and then after dinner, from about 7pm, she flops down and goes to sleep for the rest of the evening, until the time we go to bed at around 11pm - she just sleepily goes to her bed and continues to sleep until morning. I agree that it is not ideal to have her spend large amounts of time alone and I would change it if I could but I'm pretty confident that it has very little to do with her problem behaviour towards other dogs.
As for children - she is amazing with children. Yes, I agree, you can never guarantee and that is why I always supervise but if you saw her, you'd know that her behaviour towards small dogs and children is completely different. She is calm and relaxed around children - even small squealing ones grabbing her ears - and she lets them pat her and wags her tail and laps up the attention and offers her paw to shake but is completely obedient to me. Whereas she can't get within 20meters of another dog without getting all hyped up and lunging and excited and ears up and basically becomes deaf to me and totally out of control. I actually have no qualms about taking her into town centre on a busy Sat afternoon, alongside crowds and shopping bags and prams and skateboards and screaming kids and traffic roaring past...the kind of thing most people dread with their dogs - she doesn't turn a hair. In fact, recently, I have been resorting to walking her in town centre so I could limit meeting other dogs!
Besides the point is, if the method is wrong then it wouldn't cure her "problem" and wouldn't help if she had a problem with a small child either.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you thought I was insulting NZ in any way but I do think you're slightly too defensive about things. I still stand by the fact that what the breeders are advocating seems very out-dated and there must be a more "brains not brawn" way to go about it.
Hsin-Yi

Hi Hysin Yi,
I appreciate that Honey is very used to her routine, and I guess that even though being at home alone for quite a long time, 8 hours from Monday to Friday, is not the best thing for her, you're probably right in thinking that that isn't a factor in her interaction problems with other dogs.  I just thought that if she's so bored(  I know you provide a lot of good stuff for her to chew) physically during nearly all the week, that maybe she just goes a bit nuts generally when she does get to go out and mix with other dogs....so if she was doing that a little all week, maybe she would be different in her behaviour. Saying that, I'm probably talking rubbish, so ......have you decided what to do about her staying at her breeders yet?

Hi BoBo,
Thanks - I see what you mean: that when she is on walks, she has too much pent-up energy and that is why she is over-excited - which makes a lot of sense. The only thing which contradicts this is that she isn't actually excited at all on her walks, UNTIL she meets another dog. When I get home and let her back into the house, she doesn't go wild or anything. Sure, she is happy to see me and she brings me her toys to play but if I don't make motions for going on a walk, after a while, she'll go to her beanbag and curl up and go back to sleep! If I say "walk", she will trot happily to the door, her tail wagging - but she is not leaping about in crazy anticipation at all. (In fact, if she is sleeping on her beanbag, shell take her time coming to and stretching and lazing about before she gets up to go to the door. We always joke about this as dogs are supposed to be ecstatic when they hear the "W" word.) She comes to sit in front of me for her lead to be put on and then she just waits while I put on my shoes, etc. Sometimes, if I'm taking a while doing various things, she'll lie down by the door, relaxed, and just wait for me. Once I open the door, she doesn't barge out and once on the walk, she doesn't really pull either (although she likes to walk slightly ahead, ie, with her hing legs in line with my knees rather than her front ones) - and she is very calm - so I really don't think it's a pent-up energy from boredom issue. We've had a few days when the weather has been so foul that we have cancelled the walk and she seems completely unbothered - sleeps some more and just plods around the house, isn't extra-destructive or anything.  The trigger for her over-excitement really is seeing another dog. :(

Hi Hsin-yi!
I have spent many hours wondering what I would do in your position, trying to see the problem from both your side and Honey's.

I came up with this scenario (bear with me!). You are a human who has been removed from your environment by aliens (dolphins, apes, martians, whatever). They are very nice to you, are kind to you, look after all your physical needs. But you don't speak the same vocal language, or body language. Some of the time you can understand each other, and that's great!

Sometimes, however, when you are out with them, you see another of your own kind!!! Hurrah! Here is someone who might understand your language! What do you do? The alien you live with goes straight out of your mind, and all you can think of is this member of your own species, and you communicate with them in the baby language you remember worked before you were abducted. But now it doesn't work! :( Your own species turn on you, and so do the aliens! How should you react?

To add to Jeangenie's wonderful post,

I read somewhere (sorry can't remember where, think it might have been Dunbar) that the reason BIG dogs llike Danes etc. can react badly to tiny dogs is that in their heads tiny = puppy.  They get a big shock when the 'puppy' reacts to them agressively, or like a grown up dog and then either try to avoid the animal (run away) or react in a similar manner.  The problem as you have already stated is that a tiny dog is not perceived as being agressive/defensive (cos they're small and cute) its always the bigger dog :(    On the opposite side of the coin, the small dog expects the BIG dog to be grown-up and feels really threatened when it acts like the puppy it is, and reacts accordingly.

Ask yourself - is Honey really acting any worse than any other smaller dog of the same age?  Sounds to me as if you are doing more than most people would to try and get on top of this ;)

I do know how you feel :(  my own dog was a nightmare to train around other dogs - totally oblivious to me or anything I might say or do and totally in the other dogs face.  Definately a top dog of the litter.  I've just had to accept that I will always have to remind him that I'm in charge when other dogs are around - and yes he is very obedient when other dogs aren't around.

Thank you, Jeangenie, for wonderful post (can't believe you spent hours thinking for me! :) ) - and also to Dill, for your thoughts. You both summed things up so perfectly and evocatively and it's really helped me to understand Honey better.

I have to totally agree that Honey is no worse than any other puppy her age and in fact, many of the smaller breeds are even worse than her. I have always been aware of this but unfortunately, I have also been aware that because of her size and the potential damage she could (unintentionally) cause, plus the way people/dogs are already intimidated by her just by seeing her - she (and I!) haven't got the same luxury of leniency in attitude towards bad behaviour. I know I'm probably being ridiculously strict and expecting too much from a puppy her age but I feel that I have to, simply because of her size and power. With the giant breeds, you just need to have higher standards than the smaller breeds, even if it isn't really fair on the puppy, because you can't simply restrain them by picking them up or forcing them into and keeping them in a Down position by a push on their shoulders. I have often seen smaller breeds lunge and bark like maniacs at the end of their leashes and they really are terribley behaved, even dangerous towards children, and yet people either just roll their eyes or smile indulgently or ignore them. But when Honey lunges on a lead (without any barking or snarling - she is a very quiet dog and she is always calm and gentle around children) people look horrified and terrified and give me poisonous looks or snatch up their dogs and make nasty comments about vicious dogs - they are just not as tolerant of the same behaviour in Honey, which is really unfair but makes me feel under enormous pressure to make sure that Honey behaves perfectly all the time!

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all again for all your responses and advice and encouragement. I have been doing a lot of thinking in the last 2 days and have also spoken to my breeders several times and I have decided to let Honey stay with them for a while. Partly because of what CholeH said - she being the only Dane owner on this board - and also other Dane owners I have spoken to - who feel that it cannot do her harm and might do some good. They all say that with Danes being much bigger and more stubborn and barely noticing things like a slap, they might need slightly stronger methods than the usual recommended ones. I know most of you will be aghast at this decision but I am sure that she is not coming to harm there (whether physical or psychological) - I have spoken to the breeders and they have not used the stick again so it is not like they are constantly beating her - and I believe them, because they are so proud of it, they would not hesitate to tell me if they had - but mainly because Honey is so well-behaved after that 1st time I witnessed, they don't need to. I still don't agree with their methods but I think in her case, that one experience will not do lasting harm as she really is a very confident, strong-willed pup who bounces back from everything and I know it did more to surprise her than physically or emotionally harm her. I am still looking into more modern approaches for training/disciplining her when she returns but at the same time, I have come to accept that I don't have a usual breed and therefore, she might need something slightly different/stronger from what is usually recommended for the majority of breeds.

I know many of you will be disappointed with my decision to leave her at the breeders for the time being - I really wouldn't do it if I believed that it would harm her and in this instance, I feel I ought to listen to the "Dane people" first. I am not saying that I think this is 100% the right or wrong thing to do but everyone has such conflicting opinions that I feel I just have to choose a stance and stick by it - otherwise, I will go mad. I had always thought it fair to let the breeders try to sort things out first, since they know their lines and have experience of Danes - and if things didn't work with them, then I would call a behaviourist. In the meantime, while she is there, I am doing research into all the behaviourists and dog trainers in Auckland to find someone to work with me on a one-to-one basis when she returns. I am also very keen to try clicker training as I think Honey will enjoy that and it will improve our bond.

Thank you all again and I will keep you all posted -
Hsin-Yi

Hi

I have a newfie who walks fine on the lead but when she sees another dog she would lunge at them, only to meet them but as all the dogs are considerably smaller the other dogs would back away or get aggresive (not surprising really). I now use a halti head collar on her walks and as it controls her head I can stop her from lunging with no effort and now other dogs want to meet her as she is not so intimidating, this in turn has meant that she is a lot calmer when meeting other dogs and has stopped trying to jump on them so is better off the lead when meeting them too. Like your dane she is still only a puppy at 15mths but what a large puppy.:) Hope everything goes well and like the other posters say stop stressing so much - if you can.:)

Nikki

My dogs are all very obedient and well mannered.......UNTIL THEY SEE ANOTHER DOG. And 3 out of 4 of them are old enough to know better. All but the most repressed dogs are naturally very, very interested in meeting another dog. So, don't think Honey is too different. Plus she's a pup! She'll get more civilized with age and your persistance in showing her...I'm just sure of it.

Carrie

Hsin-yi,

I don't think any of us have the right to criticise you leaving Honey with her breeder, you are right in listening to Dane owners first - some problems, and their solutions are breed specific and this is where experience of the breed comes in  :D

Hsin Yi,

I agree what you say about her being alone in the day not being a factor, I guess I was just thinking aloud..............

it's really your decision about leaving Honey at the breeders, and I feel you are obviously doing only what you feel is  the best for Honey so now you've made your decision, relax and as the other posters have said, she's still only a pup, and  maybe  it's only that she's a Great Dane that is clouding this situation....good luck ...

Hiya there
well this thred is turning into a roller coaster isnt it ?
Ive been reading this for a few days now ,wondering weather or not to comment but here goes!
Fistly DONT worry sooooo much!!!!!!!!!
The main this is that you want to do the right thing for your dog ,she can ask for nothing better in an owner .:)  :) :)
Ive had a dane before and yes as pups they can be a bit stubborn and might try at times to over power you ,its because shes finding her feat and at nine months ,it natural!!!
I cant say i belive the beating is a good way of training for one moment ,but YOU must take controll ,shes big now but shes gonna get alot bigger and stronger ,so lets get this in hand before it gets to the time that shes overpowering you ,and you cant cope any more ,your doing her no favours .
The other thing is a small smack to a dane is like water of a ducks back ,shes hardly going to notice this  ,sometimes they do need a reality check ,and to know whats NOT acceptable.
I think you best bet is ,firstly if you feel unhappy get her home ,   Then YOU need to remember that with giant dogs comes giant responsibility  ,its your job to make sure shes well socialised and safe around other dogs and people ect .
If you dont feel confident enough to do this alone then dont !!! But i dont really feel as this worrying and upset is good for you or your dog , i think my surggestion would be to get a trainer to help you with her ,talk to lots of them ,find one YOU like ,get them to come and see the way she behaves with YOU in your home ,and outside ect , as for keeping her away from other dogs (: well thats stupid in my mind :(  shes just a baby and needs to  learn her doggie ettiquette ,so get her out there ,ill bet there people around where you live with other big dogs ??? ,so get her out with them ,its the only way shes gonna learn !!
Just make your bounderys and stick to them ,be firm and consistent and it will sink in .....eventually .   And remember have fun with her ,its the whole point of having her :)
Take care   

Hsyini I have emailed you privately.