Hi John

Could you please give me some advice. My 5 year old neutered black lab always behaves badly when my daughter walks him. Tonight he lunged for a border collie pup, and pulled my daughter to the ground. She is 13 and not a shivelling whaif, but he never attempts this behaviour when I walk him, or even when my husband walks him.  Is it because he senses that my daughter being the child in the family is not top of the pecking order, or is he being just downright stubborn.

Your advice any other question would be a great help.

thanks

I would say its not quite either - that this would be a natural situation.
I would say that your over-exuberant Lab just knows that he can out-strength your 13 year old daughter, so he is just able to enjoy himself as if he were at his own devices.  Being a 13 year old, it would only be expected that your daughter would not yet be fully equipped with a strong over-excited Lab, so the obvious answer would be to walk the dog with your daughter.
This way she could take turns holding the lead with your supervision, and you could step in as and when, and she could build her abilities and skills as she gets older and your dog's training improves.
When Dog Trainers train dogs, they are not training your dog, but "training you to train your dog", so this would apply to all members of a family.
Once the dog is doing his training class, he is only trained at the class with the people who have been handling him - ie, the Trainer and the dog's owner.
This means you have to practice all his training between classes on his walks,
by all those who walk him - so this would kind of cross-over into your situation.
Have you/can you enrol your daughter and your dog into your local Training Class?

cheers, kiwi

Edited to say, just seen "hello John"
Sorry, dont know who John is, dont know if anyone else was meant to answer this?

Hi
It's quite okay to reply, happy to hear from anyone, I know John does a lot training and targeted my mail in the first instance to him.

Yes, well my daughter is a junior handler, and goes to obedience training with this dog once a week. I know he is strong, but tonight is the first time he has pulled her over, she is usually pretty good at anticipating. She is quite a strong girl herself and also is a dab hand at handling and controlling a horse, also she is no novice with animals or this particular dog.  I've done the supervison thing and when I am around he is fine - I just use my voice and can walk him off the lead without a problem. The minute I come on the scene he behaves.

Hi Pat.
Love the Isle of Man! I had some wonderful memories of holidays over there during TT week years ago!

Pecking order is something which modern thinking tends to play down these days although I am not completely convinced about it. Either way, I do firmly believe dogs will try to look after their people, particularly if they feel that one of their people is maybe not as confident or more vulnerable than the others. As an example, my old Bethany was absolutely bomb proof! I've seen her bitten by more than one dog and just walk away BUT, one night a dog, another Labrador as it happened, growled at me and she flew! There was no messing, she was not having me attacked by any dog!

It's just a thought but maybe if your dog has seen you correct your daughter that he feels she needs looking after? He's 5 years old and she's 13 so she was only 8 when he arrived so she was very much a child when he became an adult. Labradors may not be an over protective dog but they do have strong ideas of right and wrong and he may be feeling that he needs to protect her from the big bad BC.

I'm presuming he has never had a bad experience with a BC? Because the other side of the coin is that he may be feeling that SHE cannot protect him from the BC in the same way that you could!

Does either of these scenarios sound a possibility to you? What led up to the lunge? Was there any action on the part of the BC before the lunge either at this time or at an earlier date? Has your daughter taken any part in his training? How long has she been walking him, for years of only a short time?

Best wishes, John

Hi John

Glad to hear you like the Isle of Man.

Well for a bit of history - we got our boy for my daughter when she was 8. He is from the drakeshead line and very agile. She has walked him since a pup. He has a history with Jack Russells - as he was attacked by one when he was about 10 months old, and usually gives small dogs a wide berth. Inside the house he tends to be very submissive but outside even with my daughter, but outside I think he has decided he is king of the Castle - so to speak.

We also have a 16 month old bitch, who was being walked by my other daughter at the same time. But I have ruled out the fact that he felt he needed to protect the bitch, as he has been naughty when it was just him and my daughter.

What caused the lunge? well my daughter said he growled a couple of times when he saw this pup (he has met this pup before and is not too keen), the pup was off lead in an enclosed park area just opposite our house. He kept one eye on this pup and as the pup darted to catch a ball he decided to have a go at it. Luckily he did not suceed, as my daughter hung on to him, then once she got herself up stood on his lead so he knew he could not go anywhere. She had a few stern words with him, and frog marched him home and put him in his bed. He is the type of dog that wears "guilty" as a huge sign on his head when he has done something wrong.

Do you think that because my daughter is growing up, and has changed a lot since we first got him that he is now confused about her status? I also think she worries a little when she is out with him and perhaps he senses the anxiety (he is very switched on and alert). So perhaps this is about giving her more confidence - How do I get him to recognise the fact that when she walks him, she is the boss and he has no need to be "on guard".

Any help would be appreciated.

Just a quick thought, but if he is often walked on the area opposite your house, he may be a bit territorial about it, esp. if he marks there and so on. It may be wise to exercise him in plenty of other places (of course you may already do that).

Lindsay
X

Hi Lyndsay

Thanks for the suggestion. You guessed right he walks in lots of other places as we have beaches and forests quite nearby. the more I think about it the more I come closer to thinking its a "pecking order" thing. He is a very smart dog, very biddable, everybody who knows him say he is bomb proof. My daughter does not have this problem when she does road walking with him.

any advice is welcomed

Thanks

Hi John

Me again, as I've been thinking about this all day. A few months ago a neighbour of ours obtained a Shar Pei, my daughter dislikes this dog as he has not been nice to her at dog training. In fact the owners have stopped going to training because it was not well behaved!!!!! (I Know). This dog lives a short distance from us, and is often out in the garden when my daughter is walking her dog. The Shar Pei whilst in an enclosed garden rams the gate with its head to get out. He did succeed once and of course our dog went to my daughters defense - leaving the Shar Pei with a bleeding lip. This is the first time our dog has ever done anything like this, and thankfull our dog was not harmed in any way. As you can imagine my daughter was scared, but tried to keep her cool, and walked home at a steady pace - perhaps this has something to do with his behaviour. If it has then what can I do to stop this???

Your thought would be most welcomed.

P.S. we are gearing up for some more bike racing in a few week with the Manx Grand Prix- hope the weather is fine for it.

Thanks

Hi Pat thanks for the reply. I'd love to be there for the Manx GP. We always camped at the farm at the top of the hill out of Union Mills, just before the Glen Vine section.

Sorry this is a bit long!

I'm talking aggression here because that is the way you headed your post and because I believe that is what you think it is.

Aggression can stem from a number of causes.

1/ nervous aggression. The dog is afraid of being attacked so makes a big show of aggression to frighten the other dog away. Trouble is, if the other dog does not go away then it tends to escalate.

2/ Possessive aggression. Towards things the dog considers his.

3/ Food aggression. Food is, with procreation, the two most important instincts in any animal so it is very easy to see how any dog might tend towards aggression over food. Without it he dies!

4/ Defensive aggression. Many dogs will defend members of his pack, including the family pack. You can see it in wildlife documentaries all the time.

5/ Territorial aggression. Dogs can look upon a place as being their territory. For example most dogs will bark and sound aggressive if strangers come to their house.

6/ Psychotic aggression. By this I mean pure bad temper. I firmly believe that although some dogs are made bad tempered, just like humans some are born that way.

As you can see from reading the above, number four was what I was thinking of last night and from your latest post which came through whilst I was writing this I would guess you are wondering about this line of thinking. There could also be a certain amount of one, nervous aggression added into it.

Your dog, being a Drakeshead, should be well endowed with brain. He may well feel that when out with you or your husband he is well protected whereas when out with your daughter, who he has watched grow up, that she is no so well able to be the defender of the pack.

Modern thinking is that the leadership of a pack changes according to the needs of the pack and so the defence of the pack would change according to who is present at any one time. When you are all out together the defence of the pack is in the hands of the people who have always given the orders, you and your husband, but when you are not there he assumes that roll. One dog, (the Shar Pei) who's behaviour he found threatening actually broke through the gate when he was out with her and he felt compelled to defend her. He is a little worried about smaller dogs (after being attacked by the JR) who tend to move fast and yap aggressively so when he sees them he gets defensive and we all know what the best form of defence is. Again, being on the lead his line of retreat was cut off. In the case of fight of flight the latter was ruled out. (Does this scenario sound right?)

Assuming this is the case there are a few things your daughter can do. (And it has to be her. You cannot affect her standing in the realm of pack defence, only she can do that.)

It is imperative that he sees her as confident in her dealing with this problem. He will not see her as taking charge if she shows nerves (Tough I know, particularly as you say she worries!) Tone of voice should be firm and confident. Not too loud, a shout could be interpreted as her joining him at trying to scare the other dog away, (Both her and him barking and growling at the other dog)
I know he lunged at the other dog and that this piece of advice might sound inappropriate but the lead should be held reasonably long (giving due regard to the prevailing conditions at that time) A tight lead cuts of his line of retreat and also signals that the human on the other end of the lead is apprehensive. And of course, if the human is apprehensive then in his eyes he is right to be worried!

This is one which you need to make your mind up on. I don't know your daughter or your dog and with many breeds I would not suggest it but with an adult Labrador who loves his family pack it could be a possibility. And that is for her to discipline him when appropriate. By discipline I don't mean smacking but I do mean telling him in no uncertain terms that his actions will not be tolerated. The way I do it is to take hold of the loose flesh on either side of the neck so that I have eye contact and I insist that the dog looks away first. I stress that this is something you must decide on because of the risks involved. With dog to human aggression I would never suggest it because of the risk of a child being bitten.

Training is always good for control. (That was the whole point of the army "Square Bashing") It matters not what's being taught although "Control Exercised" heelwork, recalls and stays would be better than the more play type training. (Remember you are trying to convince him that she is a better dog than him and that he can leave defence of the pack to her.)

There is no switch to turn the undesirable actions off. Everything is aimed at convincing him that your daughter is not the 8 year old that he first knew but an adult(ish) person who is capable of taking charge.

Best wishes, John  

Hi John

Ah yes the camp site just outside Union Mills - it is still there you know, and in bad weather when it gets water logged people help the campers to dry out their clothes.  Perhaps you should visit again????

My daughter and I have read your mail with interest and we agree that no 4 is the most likely. She has done some homework ( the good girl she is), and has suggested the eye contact stuff you have just suggested. This fellow has plenty of brains and is quite canny - he is always as good as pie for me or my husband. I don't take any rubbish from him, and when he was younger if he didn't come when I called I just got in the car and switched the engine on - you have never seen a dog appear in the boot of a car as quick as he did.

If she uses the eye contact method as a way of gaining dominance I am confident that she is safe with him - she is very aware of his mannerisms and can usually anticipate him. I would be totally shocked if he ever threatened one of us - that is just not his nature at all. Anyway I would be on hand but without the dog knowing. I quite agree with you that she has to take command, but in a structured way. This is a bit of a tall order for a 13 year old, but I think she must do it (with our backup of course).

We are thinking of getting a Lunge reign and doing some stuff with him on that - like recall and giving him some slack - do you think that would work?

She is also quite keen to whistle train him, I wonder if this would instill more confidence in him that she is the boss, or should we go straight back to the basics? Can you suggest any reading material that she can source?

thanks a lot John for all of this.

Waterlogged camp site! Arr! I remember it well!! If I visited now it would be to see the wonderful sights. Sulby Glen is beautiful in the sun. Spoot Vane, the highest single fall waterfall in the British isles, so much to see!

Yes, I can appreciate this is a tall order for a 13 year old girl but in my experience at dog club 13 year old girls are so much more mature than 13 year old boys and far more able to think their way out of a problem!

Yes, whistle training would be a good way to go. Have a look at another thread on here posted today asking me about whistle training.

As to books, most of my books are either veterinary or gundog training but one which I have never read but have been told is good is "Think Dog!: An Owner's Guide to Canine Psychology"  by John Fisher available online from Amazon.co.uk. If Lindsay reads this maybe she can add to the list.

Please let me know how things work out.

Best wishes, John

hi John

Spoot Vane has to be the most magical spot I know - I have an original painting of the waterfall in my lounge. We have so much to offer on the Isle of Man - perhaps you could combine a visit with some dog training sessions ????????

Whistle training - the thread you refer to has been posted by my daughter - she is very keen to crack this problem as you can see.

I've steped back a bit with our boy and let my daughter be more to the fore, which I hope will help. She is very sensible and tries to think things through logically so I am confident we can work through this - provided we don't meet the Shar Pei - I don't think we can ever erase that from his mind (he has a memory like a elephant).

You've been a terrific help - thank you. Will we see you in the Isle of Man sometime soon?

Bye

I saw it in 1963, was on the island for the '63/64/65 TT's (I'm old :( ) As you say, its magical. I'd love to go again! One day maybe. . . . . .

Hilary emailed me earlier in the evening although I did not realise it was her! Anything I can do to help just let me know.

Best wishes, John

Hi John

You are only as old as you think you know !!!!!!. Somedays I think I am 90 with this motley crew. I love the beaches in the north of the Island and Baldwin with the Resovoir.

We have an open show next week in Sulby Glen as it happens, as part of the Royal Agricultural Show - brilliant setting and the labs will by far outnumber any other breed. All the lab people get together, and we have huge picnic, dogs, adults, kids and we have a great time, sometimes we have to let other breeds in because they look so lost and hungry (!!!!!). We have more junior handlers per breed, and in general we are doing well. The labs suffered a lot and we lost a class a couple of years ago, but I think we can look at getting that back in the next year.

I have two girls Hilary and Isobel, we are all members so sometimes we forget to login in the right name. We've bought the whistle and on sunday will go to a plantation to practise (one where there will be no distractions).

As I've said I decided to take a bit of a back seat with Orry to see how we go with this.

We'll see how we go with the whistle training, and let you know.

Many thanks for your advice and help.

Kind regards

Patricia

I've been to Ramsay, but I like Peel much better ..

Hi

Another person who has visited our fair Isle. I agree - Peel is lovely as a community, fantastic kippers, ice cream and chocolate - what more could you want.

Re books, i agree with John that John Fisher's books are good and very readable, I would also recommend his "Why does my dog...?". He reviewed some of his ideas later (documented in his "diary of a dotty dog doctor" ) as he felt that it was actually OK to let a dog eat first or lie on bed etc after all. There's also plenty of interesting dog books on www.Crosskeysbooks.com most seem very sensible and there is a big range there. Gwen Bailey does some good ones such as  "What is my dog thinking?"

Hth

Lindsay
X

I'm glad you saw this Lindsay. I knew when I was writing it that you would know some good books on the subject. I must admit that this type of book in not prominant on my bookshelf. Mine tend to be vet, obedience or gundog books.

Best wishes, John

HI John

Been watching this dog of mine for a few days now. He follows my eldest daughter around but is not too bother what happens to my younger daughter.

I walked him today in an area where a lot of people walk their dogs. He was off lead, and we had 5 collies (amongst others) darting all over the place, he sat, he stayed, he came to heel, he walked to heel and dropped to a down when told.

He's just got the whole pecking order sorted out. But we now have the whistle and I think it will help my daughter to give consistent commands. Training starts tomorrow.

Thanks for all your suggestions and help - and if ever in the Isle of Man look us up.

Bye
Patricia

Did you see my bit on whistle training on the

"John- How do i whistle train a dog"

Which was on the "General board"?

Best wishes, John

Yes, saw the whistle training stuff - thanks very much. Sorry to hear about your pheasant poults.

Patricia

I think John Fisher was the person who really got me interested in "canine psychology" , John. His books made so much sense and completely fascinated me, and being peppered with humour suited me well. I hate really dry books but his were such fun to read. I confess to only having the one gundog book, though, by somebody else called John :D ;)

Lindsay
XXX

The Gundog book by someone called John is still selling Lindsay. I had a complete stranger hammering on my door on Sunday morning wanting one!

The gundog book by someone called John !!! I'd like one too - building up my library you see - any ideas where I can pick one up?????

:D

You'll have to ask - John ;)

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay

Thanks for the book references, will see what we can do. Thank God we have the internet - not a lot available on the Island. We do some serious searching.

Many thanks

Patricia

The internet can be such a blessing can't it - don't know what we would do without it now! Have fun with the training, i am sure things will come right for your daughter with a bit of "tweaking" :)

Lindsay
X

Don't know what we would do without the internet here on Isle of Man - I am sure we will work things out with the training. I think we have identified some key areas. Being consistent is a big key point and difficult when you have a house of dominant women!!! Hopefully whistle training should help.

She handled him brilliantly yesterday when the dreaded "Shar Pei" escaped yet again. My heart lept when I saw Shar Pei had escaped, but my daughter was calm. She's had a few stiff words with our boy, doing the eye to eye stuff and he seems to be behaving himself.

Thanks for the book suggestions.

Patricia

Hi
This thread has made me think a bit about our lab. She is 8 months old and does everything i tell her. Recently i was in the park with her and my 3 year old son when a lady came in with a very boistrous goldy pup. The pup is 6 months old but much bigger then my girl. The goldy pup ran straight at my son and jumped on him knocking him to the floor and then chewed on his face, she didn't break the skin and was playing but my son was terrified. Anyway i was a little bit away from him and couldn't get there straight away. My girl ran up the field with her hackles up, just before she got to my son and this goldy she looked round to see where i was and when she saw that i was already almost there she walked off.

Do you think that this is because she realises that i am in controll of the situation? As a norm she will check up on my children through the day, she wonders off, finds them and will then go back to bed and if we are in the park she never leaves them for long before 'rounding' them up unless  i am close to them.

Thanks Debbie

Labradors will look after their human pack although guarding is not really one of their jobs. They do seem to have their own ideas on what's right and what's wrong. My Bethany was a good one to have around in times of trouble because she was so confident. I always felt that she would listen to me. Lucy on the other hand was a far less confident dog and I always had the feeling that in trouble she would be one of the dogs that once started would be afraid to stop!

It pays you to look into your dogs mind and work out how its thoughts work so that you have an idea what to expect. With your bitch, at 8 months old her guarding instincts, unless she is very advanced for her age would not be so advanced yet. It was very good of her to have left the intervention to you. But as she gets older she may well not be so easy going about it. The more training you can do around other dogs the better the control under those circumstances.

Goldens incidentally are usually three to six months behind Labradors in development and need a lot more care in training.

Best wishes, John

Hi John
Thanks for the reply, corrently i will call Buffy back to me after a few minutes of her being with other dogs. She come's back and i praise her and then she can go back and play. She is very good at coming back and i normally only have to call her once.
I have been told by people in the street that she is an abnormal lab because she will bark at strangers who approach my children (if i'm not there) , if i am there and people rush her then again she barks. She onlt does this with adults, i a child approachs her she sits down and wags her tail happily.
I have worried about thsi behavour as there was a time that i was sure she would bite someone. It has been improving since i have ignored it. I can tell  when she is not happy with a certain person and i won't let them attempt to stroke her.
She also hates baseball caps and will bark at anyone who comes near our house wearing one. When she does this i look her in the eye and point to her bed, she sort of puts her tail between her legs although not all the way between and will go to her bed.

I watch everything she does and i think that i am pretty good at reading her now, i also understand that she will go through periods of change where i she may act differently then before in situations that she is used to.

Thanks again Debbie

Glad to hear of her success. Nothing breeds confidence quicker than success. I've PM'd you with details of the Gundog training book but completely forgot to put the title in the PM! It's "A Simple Approach to Gundog Training"

Best wishes, John