Hi again everyone,

As most of your know, I have been having a lot of problems with my 9month old, VERY boisterous, VERY cocky Great Dane puppy and a lot of you have been very helpful to me and I really appreciate it.
Unfortunately, it was still a lot of conflicting advice, even just on this board, and I was getting so stressed out by everything that I was having trouble sleeping and concentrating and the final straw came when I drove through a red-light while I was preoccupied thinking about Honey and nearly smashed into another car. It was really frightening and thank God my car has very good brakes. I came home from that and burst into tears and spent most of that weekend constantly on the verge of tears. I decided something needed to be done and I called up the breeders to ask their advice and they suggested that it might be good for Honey to go and stay with them for a month or so, as living in a "pack" with 7 other Danes might help her learn canine manners better and also that it would be good for my mental health to have a break from it all. I agreed and we duly drove Honey down to the breeders last weekend (they live near Wellington and we live in Auckland, so it was a gruelling 16hr round trip). They had been very confident that they could "retrain" her but I was horrified when I realised what that involved. As soon as we arrived, Honey went for their 11-week old puppy - her usual thing of jumping on its head, pawing and trying to play too roughly - to which the puppy snarled and growled and then (as usual) it escalated with Honey snarling and growling back and seeming to "attack" the puppy...well, the breeders grabbed her by her ear, took out a rubber stick and beat her!! I was so shocked, I just stood and stared. Obviously, it was not a harsh beating and they assured me that it wouldn't really hurt her - but she was cowering away and whimpering - and I just could not believe my eyes. EVERYTHING I have ever read about dog training and such is totally against physical punishment. God, on this forum, you can't even suggest telling your dog off in a situation like that as everyone thinks that correction of any sort is bad. And yet here were the breeders beating her to show her that she was bad and that she was being punished! I thought we'd moved way beyond thrashing our dogs for bad behaviour? I was always told that New Zealand is like the UK but 50yrs behind and I'd never really thought so until now. They even advocated me holding a similar stick when I walked her - which was mad - maybe it's OK in the farming community in the countryside but if I tried a similar stunt in educated suburbia where I live, I'd probably be ostracised, not to mention arrested by the Auckland SPCA. Not that I think I should have to beat my dog under any circumstances! They also said that I should knee her hard in the ribs or punch her in the ribs if she misbehaved. They insisted that it was only the "first time" and after that, Honey would not challenge me again. They insisted that it was the only way to discipline the dog and show them who is boss. I'm horrified at such out-dated attitudes, even though I have nothing against the traditional dominance theory and making sure you're "alpha", but this seemed to be from the Dark Ages.
And yet, I can't deny that Honey modified her behaviour immediately - she approached the puppy again much more slowly and carefully and after a "Gentle!" from the breeders, she lay down of her own accord and tried to gently offer her paw and soon she and the puppy were gently mouthing each other and playing exactly the way I wished she could play with small dogs. She was also incredibly obedient to the breeders after that and a simple word from them had her calming down, unlike my constant, frustrated commands which just seem to fall on deaf ears. It was obvious that she showed them respect, whereas she doesn't respect me out of the house. So I just don't know what to think because although I abhor their methods, it does seem to work! And all their other dogs are beautifully behaved - not to mention Honey's sister, who is like an angel dog - she is now making the perfect pet for a couple living near us, after having lived with the breeders (and presumably this method of physical punishment) for 9 months. And yet - I can't get it out of my head that their methods and attitude is so wrong! I read some of the replies to Andy on the "One to One Aggression" thread and I have to agree that I think it might only make the situation worse - and yet, it seemed to work beautifully on Honey! So what does this mean? Do I have to start beating my dog, even though I don't believe in it, because it's the only thing that seems to get her to behave??

I feel so confused now - like everything I have learnt and believed in has been thrown on its head - and yet I can't argue because they are managing to extract the desirable behaviour from Honey using their out-dated methods, when all my "new-age" non-confrontational methods seem to have failed?!!

The other thing they say - which I violently disagree with - is that I should just NEVER let Honey socialise with another dog ever again. That I should avoid other dogs, even cross the street, and never let her meet any other dog or play with them. I just cannot agree with that as it does not seem too much to ask for to expect your dog to be able to interact well with other dogs. OK, so I'm not expecting her to like or play with every dog she meets but I don't think it's too much to ask for her to be able to meet other dogs calmly and non-agressively and move on. Surely, that is what all this puppy socialistion and stuff is about? Again, how could everything I have learnt and believed in be wrong? Everyone talks about the importance of socialisation and we spend so much time doing so with puppies, just so they would be able to interact with MOST dogs they meet. I see all the other neighbourhood dogs doing it and I don't see why I can't expect the same from Honey. Especially living in suburbia as I do, it's impossible not to meet other dogs when you're out on walks and it isn't always possible to cross a busy 4 lane street to avoid the other dog (not that I want to). It's alright for the breeders when they live on acres of countryside and don't walk their dogs off their property and have 7 dogs to keep each other company but I think it's cruel to deprive Honey of canine company completely and also have to skulk around the neighbourhood, changing direction whenever I think I see a dog on the horizon!

The other really frustrating, confusing thing is that they insist that I should NEVER let Honey off-leash ever to have a run or play with any other dog, even ones she knows well and gets on with it. They say that there is always a risk of a dog-fight starting and because of that, I shouldn't take the chance. And yet lots of people here on the forum (and I agree) think that off-leash, free interaction with other dogs is exactly what Honey needs - or any dog needs. I just can't agree, again, that I shouldn't ever let her have freedom and the chance to interact freely with other dogs. I would understand it if her recall was bad or something like that and I would work on that and not let her off until we'd mastered it but to deny her forever, simply because MAYBE she might get into a fight and then have to be put down?? To me, it would be like not letting your children learn to drive because they MIGHT have an accident and kill a pedestrian and then they'd have to go to jail!

Anyway, Honey is staying with them until the end of Sept now and part of me does wonder if I did the right thing, letting her go to them. Whenever I voice my doubts, they start going on about their 30yrs of experience and how I'm just being silly and sentimental about dogs. The trouble is, I really can't deny that their dogs are very well-behaved and that if they are so wrong, how could they produce such a lovely, well-mannered, well-socialised dog as Honey's sister?? But at the same time, I don't want to have to keep my dog in isolation and beat her whenever she starts acting up, for the rest of her life!!
By the way, in case anyone is wonderig - they are not backyard breeders or anything like that. I did a lot of research and picked them because they are more "advanced" than most other NZ breeders of Danes in doing hip-scoring and stuff like that and their dogs are famous for their temperaments - and they are affiliated with a respected English breeder...so they are "good breeders" as such and they have been very supportive from when I first picked Honey up as a tiny pup and have always offered to take her back if problems ever arise...etc, I just feel very torn as I feel like they are trying to help and they are not bad people and yet I disagree so violently with their methods and attitude that I don't know what to think!

Sorry this is so long again but I had so much I needed to tell and I would be interested in anyone's opinions.
Thanks -
Hsin-Yi

Hsinyi, your analogy between not letting a dog meet others and not letting children learn to drive is absolutely spot on! Sure, the accidents won't happen - but neither dog nor child will live a normal life in the 20th century, let alone the 21st!

My dogs live in a harmonious pack of four and I have never once had to resort to such treatment to ensure good behaviour. As you say, it's easy for a person with lots of land and a group of dogs to avoid 'strangers'. The dogs can still get proper exercise and interaction with their own species. But owners of solo dogs in a normal house don't have that luxury. It is vital for their dog's physical and mental health to both let them run, even a little, every day, and to interact with others. To do otherwise is comparative with a Martian never allowing a human child to meet and play with other humans. It would grow up warped.

You have my sympathy - you are clearly trying so very hard to be the ideal owner with the perfect dog. I wish I could help more.

Hi Hsinyi, it sounds to me like there dogs are obedient and well behaved out of fear of a beating rather than respect.

I'd give up smoking tomorrow if I knew that everytime I was going to light up someone was going to punch me in the ribs or beat me with a stick.

Physical punishment does work but rather than Honey behaving and doing as you ask out of love, respect and wanting to please her master she'll be doing it out of fear of being beaten.  I suppose its a question of whether you want her to be afraid of you or respectful of you.

She's still a young pup with lots to learn yet and I know that it takes an awful lot of patience the kind way but I can't help but feel its a better way than that.  Also, what if you take her back and one day she questions your authority - you whack her one as they have instructed and she then turns on you (you being smaller than she is)?  You'll have failed AND she'll have lost any respect for you and you'll be right back to square one.

I remember reading about when they used to break horses in by tying their legs up and beating them into submission.  This kind of behaviour just isn't acceptable any more and I don't think that their methods (no matter how well they work) are acceptable either.

Hayley..x

I know you are trying to do what you think is right but please remember she is only a baby and training your dog is ongoing.... it never stops. She is only 9 months old I would put someone in the ground if they beat my dogs

Hsin-yi,
I've been reading your posts with interest, and I understand very well the frustration you feel.  I'm only a first-time dog owner myself, and have been through many similar difficulties as yourself with my saluki.  Of course, a saluki is much easier to handle than a great dane, and I'm by no means an expert on these matters, but I really feel that with time, your dog will settle down and become well-behaved, just like nearly all other dogs do.

I think you exercise your dog mostly in a dog park-type arrangement?  I am in a similar situation, and the way I sorted out my dog's problems was very simple - whenever he became too boisterous or starting mounting other dogs or being possessive over toys etc, I simply put the lead on, apologized to the owner of the other dog, took my dog out of the dog run, made him sit and stay for 5 minutes (or 2 minutes, or however much you think your dog can handle), and then took him back in.  By taking away the enjoyment of being off-lead in the dog run, he soon learned to associate the behaviour I did not like with this enjoyment disappearing.  It worked literally within days.

I also think you should take back your great dane now!  You shouldn't be letting your breeder beat your dog into submission just so it behaves as you want it to - that's a very sad solution to your problems, don't you think?

You are obviously getting too stressed to think clearly about your situation, and I do think a break from your dog would be a good thing, so why don't you put your dog in kennels for a week or two, where it will also be socialized, and presumably not beaten, and then take a fresh approach when you go to pick her up.

Owning a dog should be enjoyable, and you are obviously not enjoying your dog at all if you are willing to let her be beaten into the dog you want.  I really urge you to reconsider the stay at your breeder's.

Phil

My immediate gut reaction is get her back now!! What happens if hitting her doesn't work after a time hit her harder??

At least when she's with you YOU can see what's going on. Please go and get her.

                                                       Anne

I inherited a dog 40 years ago that had been "trained"in this manner so the thing about NZ being 50 years behind the UK is probably about right-the dog the first one I retrained was punished using a choker & being hit with a choker for any"misbehaviour"It was then called dog breaking & that describes it perfectly

There is no justification for using physical punishment beyond that of normal dog behavour a mother will sometimes scruff a puppy but the puppy is not harmed & the scruffing is done immediately the bad behaviour happens.

Please if you can get your dog back as soon as you can use any excuse-you can't live without her, can't sleep etc etc etc You may regret it if you don't

From your postings you were going the right way about training your dog & like many of us you will make & have made mistakes, but nothing that could not beput right & nothing that would permanently affect your dog

You & her are on a learning curve & it will continue all her & your lives

Paws crossed your girl is back home soon

Hi,

I'm afraid I can't offer much advice either but I imagine your Dane is entering the teenage stage ? I have found my Goldies enter a stage from about 8-9 months which can last with one mine up to 16 months he is now back to being a little angel.
I don't know what some of time scale this hits with a Dane but hes still a baby trying to find his way and probably as he matures will eventually settle you just hit a very difficult patch and obviously not made easier for you because of his size which makes you feel twice bad because your conscious of his size and his unruly behaviour.
Chloe H has Dane and i'm sure she may have some sound practical advice i'm sure she will be along shortly:-)

Anyway sorry I can't be much help I wish you all the best and I'm sure you and your dog will come through this difficult time and he will reward you with being a loving,obedient dog in time:-)

Briony:-)

Hi,

Sorry I think your dog needs to be with you and not the breeder at this time In my opinion he may well end up very mixed up dog.At the end of the day he will be living with you and not your breeder.

Briony :-)

Thanks, Briony - yes, I think she IS entering the teenage stage which is similar to your dogs and will probably end around 2yrs and I was fully prepared for it but I don't want to just sit it out, as it may just solidify into bad adult behaviour - I'd rather tackle it now and find a solution if I can.

Thanks for your support -
Hsin-Yi

B***** h***!
right thats it youll have to move to UK!!!
go & get her,she should be bonding with you!
surely there must be some knowledgeable kind places out there?

i dont think they hurt her,but they certainley scared her,i wouldnt be happy with my dog being scared like that.
dont really understand why they are happy to let her "run" with thier pack,but dont think you should let her off when you get her home
also ,if thats what they were happy to do infront of you,god knows what they could do with you out the way.
i agree with been firm with a difficult dog,but it shouldnt be that way.
you need to be firmer & totally consistent,let honey know immediatley when she crosses the line,every single time!

"i agree with been firm with a difficult dog,but it shouldnt be that way.
you need to be firmer & totally consistent,let honey know immediatley when she crosses the line,every single time! "

I totally agree, Michelled, and I don't think beating her is the way but what do you suggest then? (I'm not being argumentative - I really don't know!) How do you think I should show her (the "correct" way) that she has crossed the line?

Thanks,
Hsin-Yi

ok,i have collies who are really sensitve,but this is what i would do & do do.

any unwanted behaviour i immediatly stop,by dropping the dog,handling the dog,totally stopping what i am doing,calling the dog back.i do which ever is appropreate.then i show the dog what i want require & go mad happy,play ,titbit  the correct behaviour.
my dogs totally understand "No" "wrong" "uh oh" "what are you doing",all mean different things to my 3,all mean stop or try again,but "no" would be prettey serious.

you also need to have totally clear in your head what is acceptable for her to do,this needs to be the same every single time.
think about your rewards,make them really good & exciting
make yourself really important to her & fun & interesting,if you are having to tell her off all the time,i dont blame her for ignoreing you,make sure you do lots that she can get right so that you can reward & play!

As a dane owner I am going to go against the grain here and say that I think that a slap or a smack with a dane is absolutely necessary if the dane is showing behaviour that is that worrying to you. I wouldn't BEAT a dog, but I have smacked both of mine and so do my breeders - and they are very well respected - and do you know - IT WORKS! Danes are very stubborn - and clearly traditional training is not working with her. I honestly think that on this occasion you should talk to your breeder as they have far more experience than anyone else.

Befroe Phoebe was in season she was frequently attacking Willis. She went back to her breeder for a couple fo weeks and when her breeder witnessed one of these attacks Phoebe got a clout for her trouble. She came back a different dog.

Chloe, read the original post again - this breeder advocates never letting the dog off-lead again, beating it with a rubber pipe to the extent that the dog is cowering and whimpering, and never letting it play with another dog again.

I understand your point, but I don't think it's right to give Hsin-yi the idea that her dog is OK at the breeder's house.  30 years experience does not always make an expert if that 30 years of experience is unchanging, inflexible, and closed to new ideas.

Maybe we need a happy medium here - a smack on the rump for really bad behaviour sure, but not two months of physical beatings to take all the spirit out of the dog.

I agree, most people on here know me and know that i advocate reward based training (and yes! ;) i have the most difficult dog i have ever had - 2 adolescent BSDs  together were easier than this girlie, and they're not an easy breed anyway).  I use this method with her as it works so well if done effectively.   However, the smack or not to smack debate will go on and if one decides to smack then it should be once and no nagging; an actual beating with a rubber stick especially for the job is over the top IMO. You can easily use the voice strongly if necessary and it should do a similar job.

As for advising not to let Honey even meet other dogs - i find it hard to comment...

Lindsay
X

I don't know anything about Danes but if a little smack here and there is going to work surely it would be better for you to be in charge of that? Otherwise she still might play up for you and behave for them (pointless). Also, my puppy is very boisterous and sometimes I could really do with a break but I think I would prefer that to him being subdued and scared of people. I would go and get her back. You obviously aren't completely happy with the situation. 

I agree with a happy medium, just enough to show who's boss, but by that I mean a quick smack across the dog's butt when he's done something really not on...no way should they be using any sort of stick to do this, and I think this long stay with her breeders will only confuse, and maybe scar mentally for life ,Honey.  Don't forget that Honey's sister is a different dog, just because they are sisters doesn't meant they are identical in temperament, as in children. I have twin girls and they very different in personalities, when they have been raised exactly the same.  I don't think you should take her sister as a positive proof that this breeder has done the correct thing in beating the dogs as  way of making them obedient. She may just be naturally more compliant.   Get your dog back, and just try to accept that this is a hard phase of Honey's development and try , I know it's very hard , to chill out about it.  I can see you're really suffering about all this, but I think Honey might well learn one way of behaviour out of fear,( which to be honest is the only thing she's going to learn as proved by her instant reaction to the stick) and then be more of a handful when she gets home to you.  Just be consistent in what you what her to do for you, and be consistent , firm and very strict with her until she comes through this phase.  All this referring to so many ideas, people etc is going to drive you, and her crazy.  Don't worry, it will all come out ok if you can try and just be calm and realistic with her, she's very young.  She needs you, not her breeders.  She needs to really bond and trust you implicitly, not be moved around and beaten.  This is too young an age for her to be away from you and your methods for so long....sorry to ramble, but I do feel for you and wish you luck

I will say that whilst I do not advocate using any stick to hit a dog - a smack on a determined dane is like a fly landing - they take NO notice - which is why they have to be taught at an early age whats acceptable and what isn't. Leave it till later and you've had it! We are also only seeing ONE side of the story here - perhaps the breeder was just protecting her puppy and wasn't aware of just how badly this dog would attack??!

I don't think my breeder was unaware - I have been in telephone contact with her and describing to her in exact detail how Honey behaves around dogs, so she was fully prepared. I also warned her before letting Honey off-leash to mingle with her dogs. She didn't seem the least worried or upset about her puppy - she was very calm and seemed intent on just teaching Honey a lesson. She let them interact with each other again immediately afterwards.

But I don't want you to think that I'm trying to blame the breeders here, either it's not like I'm just trying to push "my side of the story". I am sure they didn't really hurt her, especially as Honey is a very confident dog and she bounced back straight away. It just seemed to take her down a peg or two, which is probably what she needs. And I do believe that they only did it this one time - she has been so well-behaved since then, they haven't had to (of course, I'm not there so I can't guarantee that but they are so not ashamed of their methods that I don't think they would lie to me about what they are doing to her). So I'm not trying to accuse the breeders or anything - I just find it very difficult to accept their methods as it seems to go against everything I had been taught about dogs.

I told Phoebe's breeder just how vicious she could be when she decided to have a go - it still shocked her when she attacked her sister though :) Thats all I am trying to say - the reality can be somewhat different from their perception and can still come as a shock

im not against smacking if nessecary,but if you are going to go down that route you need to be aware that if it works & then stops working ,then you can only smack harder then harder.
i do handle my dogs,firmley if necessary,not harshly though. that is enough for them. no they arent danes .
at the end of the day,you can only do what you feel happy doing.

Do not tell me to "read the post again" thank you. I am more than capable of reading it the first time :rolleyes:

Personally, I think the OP worries far too much about her dog - Danes are big and strong and can be dog agressive if not shown the boundries in the first place - I honestly think that perhaps a smaller easier breed might be better.

ChloeH - I must say I agree with you here.  The OP has mentioned on a few occassions that her Dane is bigger than her and stronger than her.  Maybe a smaller breed would be easier for her to handle.

*Hayley awaits the comeback*

I have to agree, right from the beginning of these posts I suggested that perhaps the OP is "overdogged"; whilst mere physical strength is NOT necessarily necessary IF you have the dog training skills required to have neither with a dog of this size is, I believe, a recipe for eventual disaster.

On top of all that is not owning a dog supposed to be a pleasure?  It strikes me that there has been little of this in this particular relationship.

Sometimes one has to sit back, be clinical and know one's limits........................

I don't mean to be unkind, but realistic and pragmatic; sometimes persistence is NOT the solution .........

You have put what I am trying to say in far better words than I could :D

Its a common thing with danes I feel - people look at adult danes and think they are slow, sleepy, couch potatoes that don't need walking...hmmm...well, you have a good 2 - 3 years of slow maturing puppyhood before you get to that stage with some! They do ten times the damage, need ten times the attention and food :) , they DO need a good blast around a field daily when old enough and they can be dog agressive and intimidating because of their size. They are incredibly stubborn and yet they are as loyal a dog as you can get. They are not a breed for the faint hearted and if ownership of one is causing potential road accidents because of the worry then thats no good for the OP nor the pup.

Tohme, ChloeH and Charanda,

I totally agree with you - guilty as charged - in that I spend a lot of my time worrying if I can cope with my dog and also wondering why - after waiting a lifetime to own a dog - it seems to be giving me so little pleasure. Maybe you're right and I'm someone who will be proven to be not able to cope with large powerful dogs...but I have to say that I find it very hurtful and upsetting that you are so quick to come down on me and tell me that I'm basically not up to scratch and will never succeed, when I am doing more than thousands of dog owners - who give up at the first sign of trouble and that is why so many dogs end up in rescues. I would have thought that you would have supported me - at least a little - in trying my best to solve what is a very difficult situation (for me) and applauding the fact that I am not giving up, in spite of implications on my health, my daily life and even my marriage. Perhaps in the end, you WILL be proven right but I don't want to give up yet and making me feel inadequate is not really helping my current state of mind. There is also alot of mention of having the right training skills - well, I'm trying my damndest to get them. Why do you think I'm on this forum and talking to everyone I can about my dog? Just because I don't have them now and wasn't born with them (as I'm sure most "dog experts" aren't) surely doesn't mean that I should just give up on my dog and accept that I don't and won't ever get those skills??

ChloeH - you're right in that I want a Dane because I love their mellow, soppy, placid temperaments when they are adults but I did spend 5 yrs researching the breed and going to Crufts and Discover Dogs and visiting breeders and even babysitting a friend's Dane for a weekend to make sure I "knew" the breed - before I even contemplated getting one. I know they are slow to mature and very difficult as puppies and I was expecting that. I am not one of those people who got a Dane on an impulse because they wanted the biggest dog in the street. I think that is what upsets me so much because I feel that I did the whole thing the "right" way, in terms of my homework and everything, and yet I still somehow seem to have gone wrong.

I feel that it is very unfair to say that certain breeds are "difficult" and therefore you shouldn't have one unless you are familiar with how to handle that breed - and yet how on earth will you ever learn to handle the breed and become experienced with it if you don't start out with your first one? I'm sure when you got your first Dane or whatever, you were on a learning curve too and if you were having some troubles and someone simply said to you, "Hey, you shouldn't have that dog because you haven't got the experience to handle it - get another breed!" - then you wouldn't be where you are today, surely?
I totally agree with you that the Dane is not for the faint-hearted and is not an "easy" dog and may need special training techniques that might not be totally by the book. But sometimes, I feel like the Dane-owning fraternity has this jealously guarded inner-circle where the moment you are having trouble with an admittedly difficult breed, you get told that you don't know how to handle them, you shouldn't own a Dane, therefore Get Out - when surely the experienced, already-owners who have been there and seen it all and know the breed should be the ones being most supportive and trying to offer help?

I'm sorry - I don't mean to argue or "fight" with anyone but I just find it a bit surprising that when someone seems to do a lot to try and work through the problems with their dog, rather than just give up and rehome them - they end up getting told that they WILL be a failure, before they have even exhausted all their options!

Hsin-Yi

My friend B, who breeds Danes, would never tell anyone not to mix their dog with others. In fact just the opposite she tells them to get the puppy out there & socializing as soon as possible. Her dogs that have been to the local Dog Training classes have been naughty to start with but then most puppies are. By mixing they meet dogs of all types & sizes & breeds & if she hadn't done this with one of her girls my BC would have never met his late girlfriend who for 12 years was his"woman" & for them a rough & tumble was such great fun when he was very small she ever used to try carrying him about. As they grow older they mature & become more gentle especially the bitches

As to small people not being able to control big dogs i'm only 5' 2" & have handled most breeds from Danes & Newfies to the toys without little problem & yet I see big people being towed around by little terriers & other small dogs

Hang in there hsinyi it will get better

You obviously love this breed and your own pup - if you want to keep working towards her being a more easy dog to live with, please bring her home from the environment she is currently in.  As other posters have replied she may seem an easier dog in the hands of the breeders but this does not mean you will experience any improvement with her as (please God) you won't be keeping up regular beatings each time she crosses the line.

If you have no other local contacts in Danes, why not ask advice of breeders of other large/giant breeds how they cope with training their pups?  I'm no Dane expert but there are several aloof and stubborn breeds which can need a different approach to training and there's bound to be plenty of folk who can provide practical tips and help you through the difficult stages. 

Don't feel a failure - you are trying to find a way of living harmoniously with your youngster and obviously want a well adjusted family pet that doesn't have you tearing your hair out!  Don't we all??? Regardless of breed ;-)  It may well be that she needs a firmer hand than what is normally advocated these days but actual physical "beating" will only break her spirit and that is cruel.  As someone else has mentioned a firm smack may well be perfectly acceptable (although your hand will probably suffer more pain than the dog!) but NEVER use any implement to administer a physical reprimand.

I've scruffed stroppy males and nipped their ears in extreme cases and it worked - I got their attention and their respect - it's no different from what their mother's would do.  However their mother's would never hit them with sticks, leads, check chains etc.

Get your girl back home, go back to absolute basics with ALL training - start with sit and down.  Make a huge fuss of every obedient thing she does.  Get these two exercises perfected both indoors and out (with and without distractions) before moving onto anything else.  Whatever is her greatest motivation, be it food, toys or roughing-around-cuddles, keep something unique from that list for her training successes.   Obviously you can't have her off lead in public until you have totally mastered recalls - but that will come in time when you have re-established your bond with her.

Keep positive about the things you have already managed to train her to do and try and find some things you can do with her that provide you both with quality time together - focus on them too, for your own sake ;-)

Good luck, and keep your chin up.  Teri ;->    

I think you completely missed my point in all due respect.  I was merely pointing out after reading one of your posts before that you may be like thome said - outdogged.  You have said before that Honey now weighs more than you and that you are a small person.  I NEVER suggested that you give her up and rehome her but that maybe you should have considered a smaller breed in the first place - with the best will in the world and all the research surely you must have realised that she was going to end up bigger and stronger than you?

I think is admirable that you are trying your hardest with her but at the end of the day if its had an such an affect on your health, your marriage and your daily life (YOUR WORDS) that you almost KILL yourself and others whilst driving then maybe something has got to give!! 

I wish you luck with her and really do hope that you solve the problems your having, however I still stand by what I said.

Hysini I don't believe anyone wants to make you feel "guilty" or inadequate and the purpose of the posts is NOT to "come down on you" but to inject a degree of realism into the situation.  Noone said you would "never succeed"

The fact that people are bothering to post is an indication that they ARE trying to be supportive, however we may all have differing ideas as to what may "be best" in this case they may not match yours. I would find it extremely puzzling if not downright disturbing if people DID applaud the fact that you are NOT reconsidering your predicament in spite of implications on your health, daily life and even marriage!

I think we are finding it hard to offer options because your environment does not offer the infinite resources that are available say, in the UK and so it appears from your post that you can either continue with methods of training or attitudes that appear to us less than ideal, and live with the consquences or alternatively rethink whether you, or your dog, want to undergo this level of stress.

I have replied to many of your posts in the past as a dane owner, and this is the first time you have replied back to one of my posts I believe.

I don't recall saying you were not up to scratch - however, owning a dog should be a pleasure, and your posts do not sound like you are having any fun with her at all. Personally, I think you worry too much about ehr behaviour - and on this occasion if it were me, I'd let the breeder sort her out if it works. I am not an advocate of physical punishment, but nor am I anti it if needs must. If you are that worried about her behaviour and this seems to have helped then surely an objective has been met?

As for the comment re Danes... I am simply saying that if you are so worried about your dog's behaviour and handling her that you nearly end up in a crash then perhaps its not the breed for you? God knows, I have wondered that myself enough and I have 2!

hsinyi.......

i really dont think you can say that people are jumping on your back too quickly. If you do a search for posts that YOU have initiated, there are soooooooo many. From these posts your great insecurities come over, and so does the fact that your life with Honey is not any fun. You have now had a car accident by your own admission because you were totally preoccupied by your problems. By your own admission you admit you are not controlling your dog effectively. You say that we are all giving you conflicting advice,....well this is a message board, and people WILL give conflicting advice.....its up to YOU to make decisions on your dog..........make a decision and stick with it. the situation is messing with yor head and honeys head. Chopping and changing strategies is not working. The fact that you are repeatedly needing to post over the same issues over and over and over tells us all that you are not coping with your dog, and are relying far too heavily on the opinion of others.
I think the breeder is probably not the right place for honey, but sadly i suspect that you may well not be the right owner for honey unless you can learn to cope better.   Like you say, you are doing all the "right" things, with no improvement ......
what worries me more than anything is that you could have killed someone in that car accident, this situation cannot continue.

ChloeH - can you please tell me how to make sure that Honey is "shown the boundries in the first place"??
Thanks -

I agree with you Chloe -  a well-timed and well-placed smack can be very beneficial. But just like with children, NEVER with an implement. Maybe I'm too soft, but I believe the use of an implement is the sign of a bully.

JG - I'll be honest - I have never used an implement on my dogs, but they were taught the rules at the beginning :)

Hi,

I think most good owners set rules for their dogs,but some dogs as they go through the teenage stage push these rules to the limit of their owners.I suppose being a dane it seems 10 times worse because of their sheer size and strength.

I know with the Goldies right from being pups I have rules about the house ,garden etc and I know its important to be consistant so you hopefully have a happy,well adjusted Goldie that you can take anywhere and is a joy to own coupled with good training.However on entering teenage stage things can become very difficult but a Goldie when this happens generally speaking they are easier to deal with because they are smaller than a dane and you know the stage doesn't last forever and all I do is carry on reinforcing the same early training.However although Goldies can also be stubbourn probably nowhere like a dane,usually a verbal telling enough off is more than enough for a Goldie as they are so willing to please and they were just trying to see how far they can push you.

How about obedience classes?
I suppose it must be difficult if rules had been laid down in the 1st place and Honey is now realising wait a minute I'm bigger and stronger now let see exactly what I get away with.

However I cannot offer you any constructive advice on how you go about teaching a dane the boundaries again especially if she so very determined.
What about other dane breeders advice you don't necessarily have to follow it but maybe they would have different idea or approaches just a thought?

Briony:-)

Thanks Briony - we do go to Obedience classes every Mon -it's actually at one class where a lot of the recent problems began because we were partnered (bad judgement on the trainer's part, I think) with a nervous poodle who was terrified of big dogs and he attacked Honey and Honey retaliated and things have really gone downhill from there - more from my own lack of confidence than anythign else, I think. Unfortunately, the trainers give conflicting advice again to the breeders and people here on the forum so it's just more confusing.

As for boundaries, please don't think I let Honey run wild. At home, she has lots of boundaries and she respects them all, such as not going in the kitchen, leaving the kittne alone, not jumping up, sitting before she gets attention, sitting and waiting for a release command before she can start her meal, not climbing on any furniture, coming when called, dropping anythign in her mouth when I ask her to - and she is perfect in all these areas. I have always been very strict with her and used the NILIF system and got on top of her. In all other areas of life, she is very good - there is only this problem when she meets other dogs and her behaviour with them. And I have tried to apply the methods which have worked so successfully at controlling her in all the other areas of life - but they just don't seem to work when she is around dogs!

Hsin-Yi

"I have never used an implement on my dogs, but they were taught the rules at the beginning "

ChloeH - this seems to suggest that I haven't tried to teach Honey the rules from the beginning and believe me, I have tried! I am not a lax pet owner who dumps her dog on others at the first sign of trouble. One reason I am so upset is because I have always spent so much time on Honey and have reorganised the whole household so she is maintained on a NILIF system and making sure that I am always on top of her and strict with her. If you can tell me how you taught the rules from the beginning and what you did when one of your dogs challenged your rules, I'd be very grateful.

hsin-Yi

Hi Hsinyi

Sorry to hear you witnessed such an upsetting experience for your dog and I will not comment on the rights or wrongs of it - it has already been said.

But, as I said in my response to your earlier posting on this matter, your dog does need less freedom not more until such time as she knows how to behave in public.

Your dog needs to learn some respect for you, to listen to your commands, to take her lead from you.  Until she does that it is unfair on other dogs to allow her freedom in public.

However, if the breeder has a reputation of being a breeder of danes with good temperament and the lines Honey is from do have that basis, i can't see any reason why she should NEVER be allowed freedom to mix in future.  If this behaviour is learned, either accidentally through some bad experience or because she has never learned the correct way to behave in the first place then there is every reason to believe this behaviour can be changed.

Be positive, resolve to earn your dog's respect by being firm (very if need be) but not abusive and ensure your dog looks to you for indications as to what she should be doing and how she should be behaving.  Currently she sounds 'out of control' - take back control of the situation and see what can be done from there.

Thanks SuzieQ - I do agree that I shouldn't let Honey off lead at present. However, how DO you "earn your dog's respect by being firm (very if need be) but not abusive" - where is the line between firm and abusive? How do you define "very firm"? Lots of people have told me that I need to be firm and consistent and I thought I WAS those things but my breeders are telling me that my "firmness" isn't enough and so their "abusive" method is needed in order to get the message across. I would really welcome any SPECIFIC suggestions from people on how to be "firm" - I understand the theory, I just don't know what to do in practice since what I have been doing so far seems to have no effect. (I have been using my voice in verbal reprimand plus ignoring when I can, treats and praise for good behaviour, sharp flicks of the choke chain when she is really bad and "in the throes" with another dog or just really challenging me, and at home we have always had a Nothing In Life Is Free system where she does not get attention when she asks for it but has to work for everything, from pats to her meals to going out the front door). If all this is not firm enough for her, then what should I do? Aside from the physical punishment?

The trouble with defining 'firm', 'very firm' and 'abusive' is that it varies from dog to dog. I have one who is reduced to a quivering wreck of apology if I raise my voice to her - God knows what she would be like if I ever hit her - and I'm certainly not going to try to find out. The others are a little tougher - a shout of "OY! No!" and they go "oops, mum's cross" and go and do something else, and aren't trying to climb into my arms. Without seeing a dog's reaction to the tone of voice (the most important thing of all IMO) proper advice is impossible.

Hsinji if you do a google search for Great Dane email lists and forums.  This si one result I found: http://www.sullyworld.co.uk/newforum/index.php

Hsinyi

I have sent a PM.

> I called up the breeders to ask their advice and they suggested that it might be good for Honey to go and stay with them for a month or so, as living in a "pack" with 7 other Danes might help her learn canine manners better

>The other thing they say - which I violently disagree with - is that I should just NEVER let Honey socialise with another dog ever again. That I should avoid other dogs, even cross the street, and never let her meet any other dog or play with them

Hi hsinyi,

  The dogs may be well behaved within their own group, on their own property and under constant threat of punishment from the breeder but the problem could be just as bad when Honey comes back to you, which is probably why they advise keeping her on a lead and never letting her meet other dogs... i.e. they wont have solved your problem at all (and it sounds like they know it!)... making the whole thing a pointless exercise.

I think if she were my dog I'd bring her home and not put my trust in them :)

Kath.

Is there any forums just for Great Danes?Perhaps you could join one?

There are a few for Goldies where you can discuss ideas, training and ask general advice ,some people are judges in the breed,some are just pet owners other specialise in working,showing,agility etc and its great because then you get then different ideas and approaches all from people with experience of your breed:-)

Just an idea:-)

Briony:-)

Thanks again, Briony - yes, I am a member of 2 Great Dane forums and I have been on them from 2 yrs before I got Honey, just so I could get to know as much as I can about the breed from first-hand accounts. However, I do find this forum more knowledgeable and patient and open to a variety of ideas - in general. I will post on the Dane forums too and see what they say.
Thanks,
Hsin-Yi

To be honest,

It sounds you love your dog to bits like we all do,a and you definately by the sounds of it taken the time to research the breed and seem to have done all the right things I wish some Goldie owners put in as much time and effort.

I really feel for you at this diffucult stage and i'm sure thats all it is ,its just finding the best way to deal with now,and at least you want to try and sort the problem out and not just giving up.

I just wish I had some advice for you.

Keep your chin there must be an answer somewhere :-)

Briony:-)

if danes are food motivated,have you thought of clicker training?

have you been too hard on her cos shes being difficult. it may be that youve made her tougher. relax some of the not so important rules & concentrate on the important ones like her bullying,really try to have some serious fun with her to build up your bond again,try to be her friend rather than her leader. i think she may not be listening to you because you are having to tell her off so much that shes switched off & had enough.
think of a naughty child thats told off for everything,it will never try to be good because it will never succeed.

think ,fun easy achievable stuff,try to avoid situations for the time being that will cause you to  be negative.