i have a 12 week old english springer spaniel what i would like to know is what is the best way to train him some people say clicker others say just food will do please let me know what you thing

thanks siobhan

Hi

Not much help but I have never used the clicker but know people have good results. And now you ask the question I don't think I use food either. I do use loads and loads and loads of praise and, a firm "No" when I don't want them to do something. Not much help I know. Sorry

Karen

I never use food when training working gundogs although I do use food when training pet dogs! I also never use a clicker, believing that if your timing of the praise is good then the clicker is superfluous. The clicker is just another level of praising your dog. If your timing is less than perfect which many peoples is then a clicker can be very useful.

Regards, John

I don't use a clicker as another level of praise - it's a marker of the behaviour I want repeated.  Dogs being superstious animals (in the literal sense) will repeat a behaviour if it believes it will make a rewarding thing happen again.  I get my dogs keyed in to the click noise being a part of the delivery of a reward.

If however your timing is off, then (sorry to contradict you John :( ) then adding a clicker just confuses the issue even more.  Think of a clicker as being like a game of hot and cold - as played at a childrens party - if the 'hotter' or 'colder' command comes at the wrong time, the searcher just gets confused - and it's the same with the dog, they don't know which behaviour it was which got the reward :(

This is why I find the clicker concept hard to grasp. An aware trainer can say 'Yes' or 'Good' faster than they can click a clicker. There's nothing magical about clickers as far as I can see. It's all down to the quality of the trainer - not the plastic box.

My thoughts entirly JG. In dog training, timing of praise is everything and I've never been able to see any advantages in a clicker. I have however seen plenty of people using them who's sense of timing is just a bad with the clicker as it is with any other method of training.

Regards, John

Timing in these things is of the utmost importance. It doesn't matter in the slightest what word/sound is used to convey "Yes! Good!" or (sad voice) "Shame. Too late". For proof of that you only have to realise that dogs can be trained in any human language. They don't understand the actual meaning of words/sounds! They understand a congratulatory noise or an disappointed noise, just as I can understand a Hindu speaker's disappointment or pleasure. I haven't a clue what she's saying 'in words', but I know her tone of voice.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks they would be too slow with a clicker ;)
I find my words/reactions get better/faster results with a pup. Such as "No" is easy to say by the time I've found a clicker and clicked I would be miles too late :) there again do you click for "NO" ?

Confused now and going to bed. Night all; Karen 

The reason people use clickers instead of their voice is not because there is anything "magic" about them but because it is a unique sound unlike any other which, because most people have verbal diarrhoea around their dogs and the dogs are bombarded with radio and TV, words to them can become meaningless as "lift music" so they cannot differentiate between owner's chat and commands/praise. 

I am constantly amazed at all the clubs that say "talk to your dog" as they are being marched around the village hall/field.  What for?  Unless your words actually mean something to the dog it is the same as sharing a car with someone saying "rhubarb" all day! :D

I only talk to my dogs when there is a reason so they do not become deadened to the sound of my voice or their name.

Many people find the clicker concept hard to grasp, including those that "train" it :D

The other reason a clicker is used is because it is consistent; using the voice the word "sit" etc can be made infinitely variable depending on your mood which again can be confusing to a dog; a clicker, just like a whistle, means that no anger, frustration etc can poison the signal.

The clicker has only 3 meanings:

It is an "event" marker, it tells the dog a reinforcement is coming and it tells the dog it is the end of the behaviour; period.

It is not a new method of training, it has been in use in military areas since before the second world war, is the method of training animals for film and tv work and has only recently in the last 10 years infiltrated the general pet arena.

Most people, as John has said, focus on the equipment rather than the system itself.  A "clicker" can be your voice, a clicker, a light (for deaf dogs) or numerous other things.

Karen, using operant conditioning there is no "No" as such :D

The opposite of reward is not punishment just no reward; as dogs do not do pointless things when given the choice they will always choose that which is most rewarding. 

You may use a "no reward" marker, however unfortunately most people cannot say "no" or any other indicator in a neutral manner.....................

If anyone is interested in clicker training, i can say the best and most informative book ever IMHO is Melissa Alexander's "Click for Joy". Just cannot express how good this book is, it is easy to read, fun, but goes into the "science" stuff too and so is challenging for the grey matter in some ways. For anyone not so bothered about that i would recommend Karen Pryor's recent one -always forget it's name! - Clicker training for dogs or something. Lots of photos and very much geared towards the pet owner.

I think to be honest it doesn't matter so much what method one chooses as long as it is fair and the dog and owner enjoy what they are doing :)

Lindsay
X

I have trained both using positive reinforcement (praise & Food) and by using the clicker + food + praise. 

I can't say one is better than the other.  I use food as a lure to get the puppy into the position I want to teach and then give the command word for that position + praise.  From there I bring the command word earlier and earlier and the lure is dropped off.

Just as you have to fade out the lure you have to fade out the clicker - not much difference there then.  As has been said before, a person with good timing to mark and praise the correct behaviour as soon as it is performed is just as effective as someone using a clicker.

Never used a clicker but when training pups I prefer to train puppies 4 times aday but for only 5minutes at a time they soon get bored and tired. Get pups attention on you. I use the positive reinforcement method and yes timing is very important something like 3 seconds from the time the puppy does it right to reward choose your key words and stick to them e.g. sit. down.stay etc. and make the family use them aswell. Negetive reinforcement works on the same timing e.g. 3 seconds to let puppy know hes is doing something you dont want him to do, a firm No usually does it. Start somewhere were there is no distractions and then progress out and about. Good Luck

As a thought for you, watch other people training. It is such an eye opener! Imagine for a moment you cannot understand the words and have to translate sounds and actions into the correct reaction. I have the advantage in that I watch so many people training. Some are pet people just wanting a degree of control others are long standing working people often with other dogs working at high levels in Field Trials. So often when I watch I have no idea at all what they are trying to convey to their dog and if I don't know then what chance their dog?

I would say that well over 50% of all training most dogs get is a waste of time. Either the dog has no chance of understanding it or worst, the action is so confused that the dog learns something which was never intended by the teacher! People call their dog, tell it to sit and then praise it. I ask them what the praise was for and they tell me it was for coming when called!!

Concentrate on getting the technique right and it all drops into place with no big drama however you train.

Best wishes, John

Personally I use food based reward training for the everyday stuff.  If I am teaching tricks then I use a clicker.  Both work as far as I can see but yes you do have to get the clicker right and it took me ages

I am confused how does food based reward training differ from the clicker system?

Exactly the same - the only difference is that instead of saying "good dog" the instant your dog gets it right, you click. The dog still gets a reward with both ways of training (this doesn't have to be food, provided its something your dog REALLY wants, e.g. fav toy).

Although a lot of people don't believe that a clicker gets any different response than saying "good" at the right moment, it does. Both ways the human has to have brilliant timing, but somehow dogs get more enthusiastic about the click rather than the good. Even though good is still a happy thing for the dog.

To the original poster - don't exclude any (kind) training method. They all have benefits, I began with the usual food-based training with my dogs, learnt how to use a clicker. I now use both reward-based/clicker training with my dogs depending on what I'm training with them and how I feel.

You don't have to choose one way of training and never use anything else - use whatever works best for you.

Actually, i find with the clicker my responses are faster. I wear my clicker around my wrist so that when i am training it is always to hand. A quick click signals to the dog exactly what was good, for example when teaching target training with a target stick i want to click the exact moment the dog touches, which is very quick. If i were to say good girl (for example) a which part does the dog listen to? The difference is probably very small, a quick second to a second, but as you say timing is so important. Obviously if you don't have a clicker to hand your voice is fine, but imo clicker training adds another dimension to training.
To the original poster i would say that whichever method you choose, find a good training club that can show you the most effective way to train as classes are really more about training the owner to train!

I wear my voice in my mouth! I would guess that is even faster!

Seriously, that is part of the problem with gadgets, laying hands on them in a hurry. I had a person at training on Sunday who needed to stop her dog to redirect it. I asked her why she did not blow the stop whistle and her reply was that it was inside her shirt  and she was fumbling trying to get it into her mouth. My reply to her was that when she was working her dog the whistle should ALWAYS be in her mouth!

Best wishes, John

I was very cynical about the clicker but am using it some of the time to train my pup.  I have always thought my timing with my mouth was good but it is not as "instant" as the clicker - especially for letting the dog know that that is exactly the position you want in heelwork etc. 

I am also using it for recalls - not the whole thing just sitting on a chair with my legs out and getting the pup to come up in between - we are up to the stage now where she does not get the click unless she tucks her bottom right in, I then click, throw the food out so she has to go and find it and then say nothing till she comes in to the present position again.

With heelwork rewards she gets the click and then a game, stays vary between food and a game depending on how wound up I want her.

If I don't have a clicker with me then no problem - I can tell her "good" but for our formal, planned sessions I will be using it for a bit longer

I know it sounds silly, but i really believe i can click faster than i can speak sometimes! I also find that my dogs respond better with a click than with my voice. (Although maybe that is my fault - not sure.)

I use the clicker mainly for getting the dog to think for its self and for some reason they will much quicker with a clicker.

I am sure it depends on the dog, I don't use it for all training, usually if I have a problem with conventional methods I will ask myself can I get this right using the clicker.

An example where it worked especially well was retrieving unusual and not very nice articles.  She would not pick them up in her mouth, so I built up her confidence slowly by clicking at first when she looked at it, then when she approached it and so on until she was bringing them back to me comfortably.

I am sure it was something in my voice putting her off in the first place, but by taking my voice away and clicking and reward worked perfectly.

I wish they were around when I first had my Dalmatian as I am sure he would have responded very well to them as he likes to think things out for himself anyway. 

What I find most benificial about them if you are using them correctly, you put the onus on the dog to work out what you want, you do not interfere by showing them, just guiding them in the right direction.  I think this is why they enjoy the training so much, they have worked it out for themselves.

Sandra

As Sandra says the clicker is a great way of getting the dog to think for itself which is why I use it for teaching something new which now we have basic obedience out of the way tends to be tricks or the like.  I use reward based just now and again for the basic stuff and to reinforce.  Like people have said its hard to lay your hands on a clicker in the middle of Dartmooor out for a walk. 

Claire