Why should my GSD pup show agression to any other dog we pass in the street one to one? She shows no agression when we are in class or at social events if there are loads of dogs about. Also any ideas as to how I can stop this would be appreciated?

Hi,

How old is your pup and when you mention aggression, do you mean lunging and barking?

Many dogs dislike either people or dogs coming towards them on the street and will show aggression to try and drive them away; it may be worsened by owner response and dog being on the lead so it is not free to choose to interact or to run away.

Lindsay
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My pup is 7 months old. Yes you have described exactly how she behaves. How do you explain the fact that she is on lead and approaches people and dogs head on in class without this behaviour.

Some dogs react when other dogs or humans come towards them if the sun is behind them so that they can't see features. Another reason is that in classes there is too much going on around them so they pay more attention to you, outside there is just you, so you must find a trigger to get there attention before they can react. It is down to timing so, be aware before the dog is, what is coming towards you and get your reward out, either a treat or toy, squeaky one or rattly pot to get attention on you and praise when they do. Hope this helps. :) When they have their attention on you, use the word watch or look, and praise.:)

I have tried treats thing but once she has seen the dog I am unable to get her attention at all. She is not very toy orientated so this is unlikely to work. We have tried getting her to sit before the other dog gets too close and praising her for non reaction and a sharp NO if she barks but so far no great success.

Hi Gaby,

As treats and toys fail to attract her attention have you considered the use of a clicker?  Timing of course with this method is absolutely crucial :-)

From the little background info provided, the most likely reason for her behaviour is fear based aggression, something which does not show so obviously during training classes and/or in heavily dog populated areas because quite simply there are so many dogs around for her to worry about she prefers to keep a low profile :-) coupled with the fact she has your back-up!

The positive behaviour she displays when in a situation involving many dogs should be praised enthusiastically - almost to excess!  This is a clever breed that is quick to learn (yes, the bad habits as well as the good) and they are eager to please their owner.

Providing her one to one incidents are not uncontrollable (yet) ignoring her bad behaviour may help and also ensure that you are not exacerbating the problem by tightening up her lead as a pre-emptive strike!  However outward appearing aggression can only go on so long but introducing a clicker then reward "key" may help as an alternative to previously tried methods.  It's certainly worth a go.

Unofrtunately most behavioural desensiting is not only very time consuming (which is fair enough) but it is also quite often impractical as it generally involves regular pre-arranged meeting up with strange people and their dogs (who of course have to be completely non-reactionary to their potentially aggressive pupil) to "test" the appropriate method of training and length of training sessions.

Good luck with your endeavours - your youngster is very fortunate to have a mum that is determined to correct her problems.  Let's hope you get lots of tips from GSD enthusiasts as although your problem is not at all uncommon, many times problems are more easily resolved by following breed specific advice.
Teri

Thanks everybody for your tips. I must hold my hands up and say that I do tighten my grip on the lead but this is necessary as otherwise she would just drag me toward the other dog and a fight would ensue. Even with a tight grip I struggle to hold her. She has a Combi collar and a Halti which she hates but enables me to take her out for walks. Do you think that this could make her feel more vunerable?  Are there any other GSD owners out there that can help me?

I've dealt with this many times - esp with GSD's and BC's - 9 out of 10 times its because the handler is tightening/shortening the lead at the *sight of dogs approaching* - this is a "defence/stress signal".
This includes if you actually use a short lead. So dog is inadvertently being trained to lunge/"see off".
Your signals down the lead tell him you are worried and it is felt when other dogs/kids/men with hoods/whatever approach, so dog reads this as "handler must be protected from these......?" - not to mention defend himself.
With my numerous clients, usually get them using a long lead, held in a relaxed way,hands and arms draped low across the body position.
I incorporate "look at me as i pass" treats, swapping sides/swapping lead-dog from hand to hand so dog goes round/behind me, looking/swerving away from approaching dogs - stop & starts/slow downs if pullling, Treats/praise when looking at the ground/sniffing the ground/looking at me/looking away from dog, etc.
All done in a fluid & connected way.
Usually, the dog changes its attitude on the lead, and its body becomes/looks relaxed, so dog is now sending off "Calming Signals" to the other dogs, who then return the calming signals, and whole *approaching situation* is defused
I do an initial 15-20 minutes of walking in the slow, flexible,and relaxed fashion of above before I go to where the other dogs are.
It doesnt work if you imeadiatley go to where all the dogs are - especially up close and personal - nor if you just walk in tight narrow pathways without space to move round freely, such as in arcs/half circles, etc.
Walking to heel police style is not part of this.
But its easier shown than explained - where are you located?

cheers, kiwi

Are you sure it is agression and not frustrated excitement?  My very freindly 10 month pup will bark at passing dogs if I don't see them first (when I will say leave) as she is so overjoyed to see a new potential playmate.

At your obedience xlass do they practice the leave command in connection with one dog going round the hall at a time being told to leave the seated dogs, and seated dodgs are told to leave the dog coming towards them.  if it isn't then it is worth suggesting as it is a very good excersise to teach the dog waht leave means.

Good point Brainless, of course the problem may be the diagnosis.
Barking, hackles, etc, doesnt *automatically* equal aggression, could just simply be over-arousal (flush of adrenaline), at, as Brainless says, the allure of a near yet so far play object!!
Of coursre, this still would not equal socially acceptable (in dog to dog and owner to owner terms) interraction, so teaching calming signals would still be relevant here, incorporated with the "Leave" command, as Brainless pointed out.
The "leave" command be utilized at early signs he is becoming this way, not when he is already in full flow, when it is harder to get a dogs attention, and the stress state can affect a dogs ability to take in outside information (ie training). People are like this - think of your first driving lesson!!
In humans though, our primary state is sight, so during this lesson, you'll have trouble "hearing" and then recalling later what you were told!
Dogs scent is stronger than their sight sense, so another reason to allow them the relaxed 'strolling' state of sniffing, which a head upright/short lead/strict walk to heel doesnt allow.
But, all in all, a good APDT Training class might be advisable, initially to get a correct assessment and diagnosis. One that also offers one-one, preferably walking your dog in his normal route, and possibly including a home visit.
PS - if he is 'kicking of'/over-aroused, personally, I wouldnt get him to 'SIT' and 'Stay' as the other dog passes by. As Brainless points out, this could exacerbate his frustration. And you would be allowing him thinking time to keep stewing over what he may do to this dog, and encourage more 'close hard eye' contact ('bad vibes') Both would be a provacation to your dog and the other - better to turn away and perform the quiet "leaves", distractions, calming signals, etc. 

cheers, kiwi

Hi Kiwi
I live in Liverpool England. We do seem to have a shortage of trainers in our area. She is at present doing her puppy assesment course with West Lancs K9 school in Formby. Today before class we took advantage of their play socialisation area before class. We were the first to arrive and in the pen. Another small dog arrived and although our pup had previously been playing and very relaxed off lead as soon as the other pup joined us she barked agressively and pounced on it. As we were concerned for the other pup we put her on her lead and after a few moments things calmed down a bit. I must admit that the other pup who was very laid back did not appear to be at all fazed and after putting our pups lead on it came over to play with her. Later in class we did the weaving in and out of each other and walking in front and behind whilst other pups sit. This we complete without too much bother using treats to hold her attention. As I have said before she does not seem agressive during classes only one to one. I suppose this makes it difficult for a trainer to give any advice as they don't see the behaviour. Unfortunately the trainer was not present earlier in the socialisation pen.

Coupled with the other pups reaction this could still just be over4 exuberant olay.  does your pup have any canine playmates!  Could it be that it soesn't know how to play acceptably and makes these inappropriate attempts???  dogs play very toughtly and GSDs play loud and rough in general.

I have a question Gaby Have you had a GSD puppy before ? It's just that a lot of first time GSD puppy owners mistake natural puppy GSD bahviour for aggression towards other dogs.

If you saw how my very large GSD plays with my cavaliers including barking at them when she was younger & the cavalier we then had was older than her & she also barks when playing with my BC, but it is not aggressive. GSDs can be very very vocal & when they play they can appear rough, she has even influenced my Cavaliers who play like mini GSDs with each other.

To many people the normal GSD puppy play can appear aggression & if you react by tensing up & giving the wrong signals it can make matters worse. They do do a lot of barking at each other, but it is something that correctly handled will calm down & evetually stop.

It's something that annoys me about some show people who don't allow their dogs to play correctly with adults as puppies & learn their manners from them, which then leads to bad behaviour in the show ring & at shows. Their reasoning being that they don't wnat their adults to hurt the puppies, funny I've never had any adult hurt a puppy in play in fact most adults will have a very high tolerance level before they react at all

Just a thought

Hi Moonmaiden
Thanks for your interest. This problem is completely new to us. We have had 5 previous GSD in the last 45 years so we are not newcomers to this breed. She has a regular playmate in my daughters Doberman x GSD. She is an adult and is very tolerant of our pups rough play. However my pup shows no agression towards her only rough play. She also plays in the park with 5 dogs belonging to the same owner with no problems. They are 2 Labradors 1 Rough Collie and a small mongrel. However these are all adult and very docile. She only sees this group now and again in the park, I wish it was more often. All of these playmates are off lead when she meets them.

Is she from different breeding than your other dogs ? Some can be quite a lot more vocal & physical than others-I've only ever had German bred GSDs who can be very very vocal & physical.

I think you need to go back to basics with her & turn away from oncoming dogs & get her interested in a special toy like a tuggy to distract her attention from the other dogs & reward her for non reaction I really do not think it is pure aggression

She has a German sire, our previous dogs have had English breeding. In every other way she is super. Very beautiful (long coated) black and tan. She is so friendly with people and children. She is very high drive in comparison to our previous dogs. She loves doing the agility course for puppys at her class. At present she only barks at dogs but completely accepts the window cleaner, the post man or anyone entering the house. She just wants to lick them to death LOL. Just wish we could solve this problem and she would be just perfect. 

The breeding could be the reason then, like I said I have never owned an english bred GSD so her behaviour when younger would have been normal to me.

It is worth getting her very into one toy-tuggies are great as you can physically get her attention & play at the same time & use it to do heelwork with(lots of obedience handlers use the lead as a tuggy)

She will get better but you will have to work on it(been then done that got the T shirt with my last male GSD who was very protective & huge to boot)

As she doesn't do it at the training class it's worth thinking about doing training as you walk her-I used to get very funny looks when I was much younger & trained by first & only female BC on the streets of Leeds whilst a student-what the heck she enjoyed it(she also thought she was a GSD )

Thanks for the tips. Will keep you posted to any improvement.

Interesting comment Moonmaiden - the one about getting strange looks when you practised you class based lessons out and about on your walks with your BC.
I kinda find it strange that people *wouldnt* do this
Kinda sums up the problem with dog training classes really.
The fault is not with the trainers, its the owners who fall into the belief  "their dog has been to a training class, so he's trained".
But, of course, when he doesnt do as he's "trained" in the park, or even in the home,
then the dog is "being deliberatly difficult".
But no, dogs training classes *are not* for training dogs - but for *training owners to train their dogs*.
So, if the owners dont practice what they and their dogs have learnt in their everyday routines and lives, then all that is achieved is a dog that is obedience trained inside the village hall on Wednesday nights, especially if the trainer is handling him/her.
Some classes try and incorporate an 'outdoor' component.
Repeating each component of training in different locations, at different times,
and in different cirumstances, is called "proofing the behaviour".

As you said that you're trainer wasn't present during the pup play session that went awry, is it possible that you can get some one on one service from her?
Especially when you take your dog for a walk- this will help you can get to grips better with your dog, as Gaby says. 
Your trainers direct and objective witnessing will also assist you in assessing and defining what your dogs behaviour actually means/represents.

cheers, kiwi

I HAVE THE SAME PROB WITH MY GSD BUT HE WAS BITTEN ABOUT 5MTHS AGO WHICH CHANGED HIS TEMPERMENT WITH OTHER DOGS.WHAT I HAVE BEING DOING IS KEEPING HIM ON A SHORT LEASH AND IF HIS HEAD AND SHOULDERS GO PAST MY LEFT LEG I SCREAM BACK AT HIM AND PULL MY LEFT HAND BACK STILL HOLDING THE LEASH THEN GIVE HIM ALOT OF PRAISE IN HIGH PITCHED VOICE GOOD BOY ETC.WHICH IS STARTING TO WORK.WHEN I SEE ANOTHER DOG COMING TOWARDS ME I MAKE HIM SIT AND I TELL HIM TO LOOK WHEN THE DOG IS GETTING CLOSER I WATCH HIS BODY MOVEMENT IF HE SHOWED ANY KIND OF AGGRESSION I WOULD GRAB HIM WITH HIS COLLAR AND GIVE HIM A HARD SHAKE  AND LIFT HIM OFF HIS FEET WHILE SCREEMING NO IN HIS FACE. IHAVE SEEN A BIG DIFFERANCE SINCE I HAVE BEING DOING THIS NOW I CAN GO UP TO DOGS IN THE PARK AND HE IS OK.BUT I STILL DON'T TRUST HIM ENOUGH TO LET HIM OFF THE LEASH YET BUT HOPEFULLY THAT WILL COME TO.IT TAKES ALOT OF TIME BUT DON'T GIVE UP

So your dog is learning that the approach of another dog means he gets screamed at and shaken. I must be very stupid - can you explain why you think that will help him over his fear?

I can hardly imagine a course of action further removed from recommended behaviour than the one you have described;

Is your dog disabled?  If not why the need to scream?  If it is deaf you need to replace your screams with hand signals. If it is not deaf so far it may soon become so with all this noise pollution it is being exposed to.

Is screaming a normal behaviour for you?  Can you not find other methods of communication which would prove more acceptable not only to your dog but the unfortunate people and dogs in your vicinity who are also being exposed to this ranting?

<sigh>

Sorry I have problems reading posts in caps Perhaps if you took more time with your dog & your posts you would not feel the need to shout/scream at your dog & on the internet

If this is working, it is only because your dog is shared "sh.....s" of you!
He knows that he moves a muscle an inch the wrong way, he is going to be verbally or physically assaulted by his owner.
What you think you are teacing you dog isnt necessarily what he is learning.
He is not getting over his bad attitude toward other dogs, he is just too frightned to show it, so youve only disguised the problem not solved it.
This is the sort of dog - esp.GSD's - that i have recived countless times in my rescue centre, due to the inevitable occasion when he gets older and snaps thru repeated provocation - as any human would - and he turns on you.
It may not be today, tomorrow, or even this year, but he will.
Or more likely he will take it out on an innocent third party, such as the one time a relative walks him, for example.
I can only assume you posted this post to get a rise out of people, hence the capital letters - but its not big and its not clever, and i'm sure any right minding individual - no matter their style of training - would not take your "advice" seriously.

kiwi

Let me tell you a story Andy.

A rescue GSd was very aggressive towards people due to basically being undersocialised as a pup and adolescent. His new owner took him to training club and he growled and aggressed at people there too, even those he knew.
The trainers assessed him but were not very good and knew little about behaviour, so they decided what was needed was to stop him growling.
So the dog was jerked on a choke chain, told NO! if he growled, had bean bags thrown at him and was basically given no option but to obey, just like your GSD.

Over a month or two the dog quietened and stopped growling. He accepted people closer although most people still had difficulty trusting him and tended to give him a wide berth.

The owner and trainers congratulated themselves on a job well done. Sadly, when on a social walk on the beach, stopped at a cafe outside, the dog attacked a waitress and bit her badly.

The reason this happened is because between them the owner (who knew no better) and the trainers stopped the SYMPTOMS and not the actual cause, which was fear. They had made a time bomb and had no idea what they had done.

Treating aggression isn't easy, but you have to go aobut it in a sensible way and try to understand the dog's mind, not just assume that because the dog is being better behaved that you have the matter under control. Those that are successful tend to understand the underluing learning dogs do and how to help the dog associate things that worry it with good things, so that the problem is treated at source as much as is possible.

Your dog may well be learning to associate other dogs with a very angry owner and you will be very lucky if he doesn't learn to drive dogs away when off lead.

Lindsay

Could you please give me some suggestions on what to do then as it was a trainer from a dog club that told me to scream and shake him when he showed aggrresion.

Hi Andy

Its very difficult to give real advice over the net for aggression because one needs to see dog and handler together. Most people tend to give "general" advice but not specific advice, for that you would really need a reputable behaviourist who has a successful trackrecord in aggression, or a trainer who has an interest in canine behaviour, preferably one who will actually do some training with you hands on :).

Mostly the advice tends to involve 2 types of learning for the dog: classical and operant. This means roughly speaking "association" and "consequences". For example, if a dog has learnt to aggress due to being afraid of other dogs, one can teach the dog that it does not need to use aggression in order to control what happens, and can get the dog to associate other dogs with nice things rather than worrying things. You do have to dig in for the long haul though very often, and may not get to the stage ever where the dog will relax happily and play, but on the other hand plenty do.

I have PM'd you :)

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay i stay near glasgow do  you know any behaviourists in my area  that can help me solve my problem.

thanks ANDY

Hi Andy,
You could try contacting one of the trainers listed here. There is one in Glasgow and one in Strathaven.

I apologise, Andy, if i was a bit harsh on you.
Usually on forums when people write things as you do, and in capital letters, they are just trying to be provocative, etc.
Checking your profile, I see your are new to forums and dog training, so if this is a genuine case of a "person who professes to show you how to train your dog" (note how I didnt say "dog trainer" there) telling you this is standard technique, then I withdraw my judgment of you.
If anything, it shows how people will believe what is "normal", if the advisor calls himself an "expert in the field".
But their are some rogues "trainers" out there - beware - they get found out eventually.
In any other context, this man would be accused of animal cruelty, but because he professes to be an educator, the same acts of mistreatment are re-defined as training.
To answer you question, I would point you to the posts earlier, and as LIndsay says, get yourself some proper help ASAP.
Forget this other individual.
Try the Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) website for trainers .
Or the Association Of Pet Behaviour Counsellors(APBC) or UK Registry of Canine Behaviourists (UKRCB) for behaviourists.
Also, ask around, go by reputations, speak to vets, rescue centres, they should point you to good trainers.
Ones that are kind, fair, and effective.
One that uses relaxed techniques, longer leads/harnesses, etc, relating to your dog as an individual with feelings, trains you and your dog from a dogs persepctive/psychology.
One that teaches dog socialisation.

cheers, kiwi

Hi Andy, did you get my PM? :)

Lindsay

Hi Andy - and also to Tohme and Lindsay and Kiwi and everyone else who has offered advice (to me previously as well)

I have a 9 month Great Dane puppy who is very similar in behaviour - gets very hyped up around other dogs, plays inappropriately and roughly, almost to the point of aggressively, and it has been causing me a lot of stress. (see the thread about "Cocky pup asserting dominance") Like you, I'm completely new to dogs and never know which "expert" to follow as they all insist on the value of their own experience and yet, they all contradict each other - or they advise things which horrify people here on the forum. I really reached the end of my tether with Honey, my pup, and after speaking to the breeders, agreed to let her go back to them for a short time to live in a pack of 7 dogs and them and hopefully improve her canine manners. However, I was shocked when we arrived and she misbehaved and they did exactly what your trainer advised you to do - only they did it with a stick!! Everything I have ever learnt about dogs and everything everyone advises here on this forum made me rebel against their methods and yet I can't deny that their dogs are very well-behaved! And they insist that they have 30yrs experience and that they know what they're doing and that I'm just soft and sentimental about dogs. I really don't know what to think now - I am so confused and depressed. But anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone and that it's very hard for first-time owners like ourselves to know what is the best to do, given so many conflicting attitudes and suggestions and so many "dog experts"! (Not making an accusation about anyone on the forum, by the way, but I just mean that I get told different things by my vet, my breeders, other experienced dog owners, my trainer, the people here on the forum...and everyone is sure that they are right...) and all I want to do is the best for my dog and to solve the problem but it's impossible to know who to listen to and what to do!
Hsin-Yi

What a dreadful experience for Honey. Do you have her back now, how is she? My GSD pup is the same as yours. This week she has found her voice and when the window cleaner came yesterday she barked fiercely. Up to now she had only backed away from him but with a tempting biscuit approached to say hello. She has also decided to bark at the front door if anyone lingers outside. I guess her protective instinct is kicking in. I hope this does not escalate. How should I react when she does this to avoid getting any worse?