Are they legel in the uk?

Please see Admins link at the top of the General Forum

I hope not. ALthough I don't know.

Why?

Karen

Unfortunately yes. But the RSPCA is campaigning to get them banned. I understand they are banned by all Police forces in the UK for training police dogs.

Are they really legal JG :( how sad.

Karen

I work in a hydro pool for dogs but we also have a boarding kennels,one of the girls came up to the pool today and asked me to look at this collar
I could not belive my eyes it was a prong collar the dog a 9 yr old german shorthaired pointer
The kennel manager has rang the rspca and an inspector is comming tommorow to see the dog and his collar

Well there are people for and against their use
have a look here

although how anyone could bear to use one on a dog they loved is quite odd but as JG says they are not illegal

There are those who swear by their use, say they are safer than a check chain and a half check. Have no experience myself but feel it may be used when the trainer is unable to control the dog in any other way. If this is the case is it the trainer who is inadequate or is it the result of the people breeding dogs with poor temperament, it may also be the result of peoples competitive spirit and the desire to be the best with no regards to the means.

Perhaps I am wrong and someone with experience will explain why the use of this type of collar is better than any other training methods. Can think of no reason on earth why a 9 year old would need one, if a dog is not trained by the time it is 9 years old them I can't see that anything is going to help.

Those taking in dogs to board are in a difficult position, should they report their clients, should their love of dogs over ride their responsibility to their cliental. Guess that is a whole new question and perhaps I should start another thread. Not having a go at Madstaff, would guess they have a problem with the same questions.

I visit a Labrador forum sometimes that has mainly American members. It is amazing how many of them own, use and recommend the use of prong collars. When i piped up and said how uncommon and unliked they are in this country I got my head bitten off!! I have to confess that some of thier arguments were quite convincing - and these were not novice dog owners who were lazy and using the prong as a quick fix - but I still could not justify the use of such a device on my or any dog. I find it quite fascinating though how something can be so highly rated in one western country and yet un thinkable in another.

Think that a good many civilized countries have different sensibilities and moral sense where animals are concerned. Many other countries treat pet animal far more as stock or a working tool than we in the UK do, some even consider their dogs as food. Had to give my self a good talking to when I considered the use of dogs as food, and if you really think about it, providing the dogs are treated well when alive, why not?

Unfortunately animals who are used as a food or as servants to man are not always treated as most of us would wish, battery hens & pig pens spring to mind along with puppy farms, they are all used in this country so I suppose we should not be horrified if in other countries choose to use products that cause pain to their animals until we have our own house in order.

Have also been alarmed by the length of time it is considered OK not to see a vet with a sick animal in some countries, may be in this country we have gone to much the other way and now treat our animals too much like human beings.

i know a lot of people that use them.the thing is what people are forgetting is that they should be used depending what breed you have.if any1 here has ever owned a highly strung bandog they will know a choke collar is of no use at all and prongs do work with these type dogs.i dont use prong personally which is why my dog knows all basic comnmands including long distance recall but heel work on him will never work due to me only using a choke which has no effect on him at all.the people i do know that use prongs work a treat for them and they never have no problem.remember its a training tool which is used just for training part and not the rest of the day for normal walks runs etc

Heelwork can be trained with NO collar or lead on ANY "highly strung" dog; don't blame the equipment for inability to train heelwork, look at the trainer/handler/owner!  Pain and train do not go together, except in rhyme!

sorry tohme i didnt realise you have trained heel in bandogs before.please let me know how you traineed them to heel.most people i know who have bandogs train with these for a reason-and have no problems with it to the dog including.
have you ever used a prong and felt what its like on your own arm?let me know im waiting to be enlightened.

I don't think I said anywhere in my post that I had even met a ban dog before let alone trained one; difficult to find them in the UK!

Just because most people you know train in a particular way does not make it necessarily a) correct b) the "only" way c) effective. 

I have trained with extremely high drive dogs without the need to use a pinch collar and I have seen, held and felt a pinch collar.

What would be the reason to use a pinch collar rather than a flat leather one other than to inflict pain?  If no pain is incurred then why use it in preference to a flat leather collar?

As I said in my original post you can train dogs successfully with ANY collar or ANY lead; why would they be necessary on a Ban dog and not, for  example on any other breed?

Do wonder if a breed has the sort of problems that mean that pain needs to be used in the training of that breed, if that breed is suitable to be used as a domestic pet. Or are we back to the 'prod the thing with a sharpened stick' situation.

If I am wrong and have misunderstood what you are saying, please put me right. To me if an animal can't be trained by humane and more normal methods then should that animal be in a home, after all we do not keep intact bulls in our gardens so why keep a dog that is not able to be controlled by your average owner. Someone mentioned using the collar on Labs., to me that ridicules dog ownership, just what is it all about?

If they need to use this kind of equipment on a dog such as a Labrador, who was bred to work, then really they should not have a dog! A Gerbil would be a better choice of pet!

Regards, John 

I agree John!

In a post above, the US was mentioned and indeed the prong does seem more accepted over there as do other types of equipment we tend not to use here, such as training tables to teach forced retrieves :(

However, comparatively speaking, the US has the biggest problem with dog bites and a taskforce that was set up by the American Veterinary Medicine Association suggested this was due to training methods and, by association, equipment. It's a big country but apparently 334,.000 people annually go to hospital for dog bite treatment, and a further 446,000 seek other medical advice. They calculated the figure could be increased by up to 40 per cent for those incidents that go unreported. The UK figure is just one per cent of the US figure. Hope it stays that way! :D

Lindsay
X

Is that 1% pro rata. If so we must be getting something right.

I am sad to say that when I was in Poland 3 years ago it seemed to be the dsay to day collar in use on all large dogs. :D

I have never heard of a prong collar but when I just looked at the picture supplied I was horrified!! I dont even like my plain leather collar on max and feel bad when he pulls! How could anyone use one of these??

Im sure most of you know my stance on training methods by now.

However......... in the hands of an experience trainer, used on the 1 in a million dog, who has become SO numbed to the dead weight on the end of the lead, and in a situation where the dogs attention needs to be focused on to the 'dead weight' INSTANTLY, so that training can actually commence, i would say that a prong collar is ok.

However, i am talking perhaps two, three uses, for five minutes?

I only know of one dog i would use this on, he is SO big, and SO unconcerned by whatever you may offer him, show him, do with him, that i cant see anything else that would break his concentration on anything but you, and teach him in a matter of minutes, that the person on the end of the lead, actually may have smoething to say to his benefit.
This is a dog who has spent the last three yaers being consistantly taught to ignore his handler, no matter what they do. (a new owner owuld be the best solution, but thats unlikely to happen).

Obviously, the same thing could be done, by probably walking this dog to near exhaustion, and withholding food, so that there is something he wants , taht you have. But is that crueller than using a prong collar? I dunno.

I certainly am horrified to see them on sale, and frequently see th em being used as one would use a flat collar (as choke chains still are) as a matter of course.

So, except on that one dog ive described above, i dislike them intensely, there are better and kinder ways of doing things, and there are very few situations that need a quick fix like this.

Em

I have seen them used to good effect.  A previously manic Dobermann, raging and pulling, that could remove a halti etc.. in seconds!  The prong collar was put on, she lunged forward, shot back, and the dog could be walked by a 2yrs old!  They aren't sharp and I have never seen them mark the dog, so used correctly I don't have a problem with them.
Dawn.

<<They aren't sharp >>

If they arent sharp and dont cause pain - HOW do they work then ?

They pinch about half an inch of skin and flesh at 6 or more places around the dogs neck. The flesh is squeezed between two blunt prongs at intervals and as the dog pulls the prongs close crushing the flesh between the claws. A bit like someone closing pliers at regular intervals around you neck. You judge if that would hurt or not. The fact of the matter is, if it did not hurt, and hurt in a big way, it would not have any effect. Anyone who has dogs will know how stoic most of them are, so to me, to say it has immediate effect and the dog behaves from that time on means it does inflict considerable pain. So if you decide it is suitable to use for the training of dogs is up to you, IMO if a dog requires such treatment then the dog is not suitable to be considered a domestic animal, or the trainer should hand the dog to someone who knows how to train it without resorting to such barbaric implements.