I am researching into what makes a good breeder. On another forum it has ben said that if you dont do homechecks (by homechecks I mean actually going to inspect the potential buyers home prior to the sale of the pup, just incase anyone not sure! :-) ) then you are a "backyard breeder" - a theory I do not entirely subscribe to (I know several very good breeders and to my knowledge none of them do homechecks, they just conduct an interview with the potential buyer)

please could breeders on here take a moment of their time to answer (HONESTLY please!!!!) whether or not they carried out a homecheck on EACH AND EVERY PUPPY sold in their last litter.

thanks, it will be interesting to see the results. If you prefer to keep your answer confidential that is fine, PM me instead :-)

Hi there

No I did not do homechecks for my last litter ( they went to homes as far apart as Cornwall and Scotland !). I did however insist on meeting the prospectve owners at least once before purchasing a puppy. Of the 9 pups I had , 5 went to people that were already on our waiting list and who had visited a number of times already,- (most of these were already 'in my breed' and knew what to expect from a Belgian puppy), 1 went to my daughter, we kept 2 and 1 went to someone who was new to the breed and  who had visited twice before leaving with her new pup. All  the new owners have kept in touch, sent photos or visited with their puppies.

I suppose in an ideal world I would have liked to visit each home but it would have meant me spending weeks whizzing up and down the motorway the length and breadth of Britain- impossible when you've got a litter of new puppies !

To be honest if I felt at all dubious about a prospective owner I just said no !.

Yvonne

Although in the ideal world every home will be personally checked, it often isn't possible, partly due to distance. If a person is exporting a pup, say, then there isn't an earthly chance that the breeder can personally check. If the potential owner is 300 miles away, then it probably won't be possible. This is where contacts in a breed club come in very useful. I have been phoned up by fellow club members and asked to check a potential home if there is something that doesn't 'ring true' with the breeder. All reputable breeders have to rely very much on gut instinct, which unfortunately sometimes is unreliable. But that is why a reputable breeder will ask zillions of questions of potential buyers - the more questions, the more the breeder cares about their pups' welfare. If no questions are asked, you're dealing with someone who doesn't give a toss about the buyer or the pup. Once it's sold, it's not their problem.

No - it would be impossible. My puppies are too far spread and as said previously, the important thing is to look after the puppies who cant be left while the breeder is travelling the length and breadth of the country. It would be lovely if all the babies went to homes within easy travelling distance, but doubtful that anybody could achieve that as well as finding the right people. To be perfectly honest, I cannot see that it is of huge benefit to check the home. Its the people that matter, and I insist on meeting the whole family and that they meet my adult dogs before getting the "quizzing". It is more often than not the dogs who give me the initial idea as to who I will allow to have a puppy! 

Im not a breeder but would imagine its very hard to homecheck potetial new owners if they live at the opposite end of the country or even abroad :rolleyes:

I haven't bred a litter in years, but when I did I expected potential buyers to visit me and my bitch before the pups were born and get to know us. I did check some homes but not all as I knew the people the pups were going to.
When my friend Stephanie Presdee, had a litter from her flatcoat bitch she visited all the homes how ever far away before the pups were allowed to go to thier new homes. One of this litter went to a family in Switzerland and she did go and check out the home before the puppy was exported. Her husband looked after the puppies while she was away.
I find most experienced breeders can usually suss out who is ok and who is not. Also in many breeds, if somebody is looking for puppy and is not thought to be suitable for that breed, the breeders themselves will inform other breeders. An example is a certain puppy dealer who buys puppies or uses agents to buy them for him, in our breed as soon it is suspected he is looking to buy a puppy, the word goes round so fast it is not often he can get one thankfully.

it would be impossible,however i do a puppy contract that states if a puppy ever needs rehoming it is to be bought back to myself to rehome,all my puppy owners keep in touch regularly and i find the contract to be a great help,angie

thanks for your replies so far, you have confirmed what I was allready thinking :-) It would be impossible to check all homes especially if distance or a foreign country is involved.

I find it very odd that rescues, who no doubt rehome more dogs in a year than most breeders will in a lifetime, can do homechecks and breeders can't. Our rescue overcomes this by only rehoming in a 50 mile radius. 

Surely quality homing and having a local safety net is more important?  What does a breeder do when they get a call saying "come and get this dog or I'm dumping it?". It's only happened here twice (in the 3 years I've been here) but it DOES happen. I'd be interested to know how you overcome this.

I agree that breeders SHOULD do homechecks wherever possible, but also acknowledge that this is not allways possible due to location etc.

we were fortunate when we bred because we knew most of the people who bought pups, and those we didnt were thoroughly vetted.

rescue people do an excellent job, that is not in doubt at all. :-)

"I agree that breeders SHOULD do homechecks wherever possible, but also acknowledge that this is not allways possible due to location etc."

We get offers for homes from great distances but don't rehome too far away, as we offer 24/7/365 support to our owners. We couldn't if we were to accept any home offer that came our way. So no, it's not always possible, but in those cases, we just reccommend a more local rescue to the caller. It is not worth compromising the safety and welfare of one of our dogs.  We always do follow-up checks, too, again unfeasible over great distances.

Rescuegirl ,

I think another thing different with puppies than rescue is if people have paid £500-£1000 for a puppy and decide not to keep it they would take it back to the breeder with hope to get their money back.

It is one of the reasons I often think that the donation for a rescue dog should be higher, I know it may possibly work in a negative way at times but sometimes ( hopefully a small minority) put value on things by what they have paid for them.

Anyway to the original poster, I personally would have read the post you mentioned ( about backdoor breeding) and just kept on reading the next post. Anyone who says things like that in my opinion is not thinking very sensibly and not worth thinking about.

Large rescues usually have someone in each locality to do the homechecks so it doesnt involve anyone traveling far. 

Sorry, I don't quite understand the relevance of this. We are a small rescue (hubby, wife & 3 volunteers) and most breeders probably have the same amount of manpower available. We rehome an average of 50 dogs a year and homecheck for all of them, as well as holding down full time jobs.  If we can do it, why can't breeders?

And you rehome abroad? Successful breeders of quality stock do, many of which are one person (or maybe a couple) enterprises. I've not homed a pup more than 250 miles away, which is where breed Club support comes in - another member will do the check if necessary.

No (read my post above) - we won't rehome much beyond 50 miles because we do follow-ups and always take failed homings back.  If you have homecheckers and back-up outside of your immediate area then that's something, what concerns me is when a dog goes 100s of miles away and the homer (be it breeder or rescue) never gets to see the dog again.  How do you know it is safe & well in its new home?  Having seen numerous rescue dogs in dreadful conditions, many from 'good' homes, I would not feel we are doing the dog a favour by rehoming all over the country (or abroad, even).

What makes a good home?? would it be a mansion in the country, or a mid terrace in a city???
IMO it is the person living in the home that is important not the house, I don't care if it's filthy.. we all have different standards. I have had pups go as far afield as Australia, do you think I should fly there to look at their 'house'?
When you care you know who is lieing and who are genuine.

Ditto Tcarlaidh

Rescue girl the reason you can do it IS BECAUSE you have a 50 mile restriction, alot of show breeders and also reputable breeders puppies go a lot further than 50 miles.

The best homes are sadly not always within 50 miles of breeders but I do fully understand why rescues have these rules. 

Statistically sadly quite a few rescue dogs end up back in rescue  . I don't know the figure and I know it varies from rescue to rescue but I guess this is where the skill and commitment pays off with rescues. 

I personally think home checking doesn't answer very many questions except their home life, space etc when choosen potential puppy owners  but it is good when used along with other assessement tools. I think it is talking to people over a few weeks and building a picture of them can be more important.

"What does a breeder do when they get a call saying "come and get this dog or I'm dumping it?".

Go and get the dog ! - it is written into my ( and I suspect many other reputable breeders) contracts that we have have back any pup/dog if the owners cannot keep it. Of course we would rather the dog had a secure,loving and PERMANENT home in the first place which is why we try very hard to ensure that they go to the right homes.

Rescues are able to homecheck because they will be rehoming within a very limited area and generally will not have a young litter to look after ( or will have other staff to do this) If breeders limited themselves to placing their pups only to people who lived in the immediate area this would eliminate many excellent new homes and personally local proximity would not be a high priority when assessing the suitability of potential new owners.

Yvonne

Good Job I didn't need a home check for my Cavaliers as the breeder lives over 250 miles away & we have now got 4 dogs from them

Being in the past a breeder & currently involved in rescue I have seen both side. Strangely enough the only dogs I took back were from locally placed puppies & one dog was 7 1/2 & the other 3 years old Both taken back from seemingly the perfect home-the last was the reason I vowed never to breed again(he had been physically abused) & I literally caught them "training him"with a riding crop

It is impossible for all homes vetted or not to be "perfect"The RSPCA vet homes & pass people-they have failures on a regular basis they gave up on one GSD after having it returned 5 times & he was to be PTS-eventually he was rescued from them by someone on our rescue list who had two GSDs from our rescue-not a posh or smart home but GSD owners for over 30 years who sorted out his problems quickly after seeing at the vets waiting to be PTS-the RSPCA have never gone back to check them out

As my pups could go to anywhere in the country and I am unable to drive, my answer would have to be no.  I conduct my interviews by telephone and in writing, and over the weeks and months if the pups hope to get a feel for the new owners, working on gut instinct.

I do expect the new owners to cisit and have even put up very long distance ones up over the Christmas period, as they faced a 6 hour each way journey between Christmas and New Year.

As for only homing within a catchement area this iws inpractical in a numerically small breed,a dn where you hope that others will show the stock you breed.

Sometimes the most solid homes turn out to go wrong.  My most recent rehome was from a people I actually knew, as they ahd had the breed long before I had my first, and from the same breeder.

I don't think the premises the dog will live at are the key issue anyway.

I'd say with the best will in the world and all the homechecks you could do something can go wrong.

All you can do is go with your gut instinct I would think.

Karen

yes russet im glad you have brought this up . on this other forum people are saying all breeders are bad because a dog every hour dies in the uk , and showing dogs are cruel as the entire dogs/bitches have urges . its there natural body how can being left in its natural state be cruel . They want breeding to be banned totaly , im sure that would mean some of our breeds would die out

Sounds like PETA propoganda, who hide their true agenda of phasing out pet animals altogether under the guise of animal rights.

the words 'quality stock' and 'enterprises' are possibly where anyone involved in rescue really parts company mentally from many of the posters on this forum.

You have lost me 'enterprises'???  Quality stock is what every breeders hould be aiming to produce whether the pups end up shown or not, as the pet owner is just as entitled to ahve a quality example, typical of it's breed sitting on their hearth, as that is why they wanted a specific breed rather than a mongrel.

I dont do home checks but I am like a member of the gestapo when it comes to questioning my puppy owners.  I have let my puppies go to people who own acres of land and people who live in town houses.  I think the attitude to the ammount of care and excercise they are going to give them is more important.  As has been pointed out if your pups are going to various points of the country and if you have 13 pups in a litter I would never manage it.  None of my dogs have ever been returned to me so obviously I am doing something right.  Also I try to build up a relationship before they get the pup and I think you can gage more about them from there than the property they live in.

I do help out doing home checks for our breed rescue service but that is slightly easier because there is a large network of people who can all cover small areas.

A good example of owners could be one with acres of land but the dog gets pushed out every morning to entertain itself. Another could be a family in a small terrace with a postage stamp garden , who walk to dog, train it actually have a relationship with it. What woulde home checking as a single tool establish from this??

depending on your breed but i think questions are far more important.
homechecks aretn always possible.but what is is questionming the prospective owners and seeing how much experience they have with your breed.i find people who end up owning my type dogs dont know even half what they should and may not even have experience with any type of dogs before they buy mine which shouldnt be done(im talkking anbout american bulldogs and irish staffs)

<<<They want breeding to be banned totaly , im sure that would mean some of our breeds would die out>>>

if breeding was band then all breeds would die out, you might only get the odd mongral that was breed cos it was left out when in season

i also do not do home checks,  cos i dont drive and if the OH was to take me who would be there to look after the pup and most of my pups go to England so well out of the way for me.
and i vet by phone and all new owners must come and see pups atleast 2 times before the day that they are taken home and i insist that all family members come and see mom.

>>As my pups could go to anywhere in the country and I am unable to drive, my answer would have to be no.  I conduct my interviews by telephone and in writing, and over the weeks and months if the pups hope to get a feel for the new owners, working on gut instinct.<<

Brainless 100% agree with you.

I know after a few weeks of talking to people , over several coverstations, then when you meet  them etc etc.

Hi
This is a very interesting question :). I have purchased two puppies over the last year and both breeders were extremely knowledgable and asked lots of questions. I visited them before the litters were born, when they were four weeks old and then when I collected the pup stayed at least an hour chatting etc. I was never asked for  a home visit, and to be perfectly honest I would have allowed them to but cant see what difference it makes?
I have a litter now myself, one is going abroad-I have corresponded by email and telephone and I am satisfied that this is a genuine breeder/show kennels. The lady has a fantastic web site and is advertised in breed club literature, she will visit me  before the pup goes and then collect him herself!! We are keeping two, One is going 200miles away to someone who has spoken to me at length since before the pups were conceived, and the other two pups are going to owners who are involved within my breed club-so they are experienced with the breed. I will have contracts etc, and if I had an iffy feeling about any of them when they come I would say no way !! None of the pups are going locally and to be honest  I personally wouldnt want to sell a pup to someone who wanted any 'old dog from around the corner' because they didn't want to travel far to get the right dog. And by locally I mean less than 50miles. I also agree that the size and state of someones home is not relevant, its their interest and knowledge in the breed, even for first time owners that matters most to me.
And finally YES I would travel to the ends of the earth to collect one of my precious babies if the owners no longer wanted them, however old they were :D

Hi,I promised a pup to a local person and since the pups were born I have found out she is not a person I would give any of my pups to.I was so worried and happily I now no longer need to hand pup over.I will find him the best home I can .One of my girls has gone to Aberdeen ,they asked me all the right questions about the breed and about me the breeder.I also asked prying questions. If my questions put off buyers then they are not the right person for my pups.I live in Glasgow and all pups gone up till now are at least 100 miles from me.We must do our best as they are our babies.If I could keep them all I would.

thanks for all your feedback :-) I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of "extremeists" on the rescue forum that I visit and yes, some of them have very distorted views of pet ownership and feel very strongly against breeding in general, and I can see why as they deal with cruelty cases on a regular basis,

HOWEVER - I think If you are a good breeder and do everything in your power to ensure your pups get good homes, are healthy specimens of their breed, and you are responsible for taking them back at any time if need be, then I dont see the problem.

I think homechecks are not allways essential, (a lot of the large rescue centres dont do them either!! rspca for example!!!) you can definately go on gut instinct, (I think it was tchairlich who pointed this out) and the actual "home" itself is unimportant, it could be a caravan in a field soemwhere, so long as the people are loving and want to give their dog the best life possible. On the other hand you could have someone  rich and famous who lives in a huge mansion who just wants a certain unusual breed of dog for a fashion accessory, in which case IMO they would not make suitable owners !!! :-)

russet i find there postings blinkerd as you said . most dogs in rescues are cross breeds isent that telling them that people arent throwing away kc reg dogs or if they do there older then the other dogs. There saying litters of pups are being pts i know that it happens but the only ones ive seen pts are cross bred litters , reputable breeders dont cross breed .
There just tarnishing everyone with the same brush as a backyard breeder or puppy farmer even  if you have had 2 litters in 10 years . ok they want to save animals i do too but it would help if they looked at the situation properly then posted
Ok on homechecks it would be great if everyone could homecheck but lets face it not everyone can when the people live miles away .
Even if all breeders did homecheck every dog , does that mean the pup will never come to harm
they may have a wonderful house but the person with the lovely house could beat a dog thats possible isent it . interviewing the person is far more important then anything .
Lots of rescue centers to this day do not make homechecks what does that make them?

Its not IMPOSSIBLE to do home checks (I see someone checked a home in Switzerland :)) What I tend to do is check out ones that are within 150 or so miles of here, but the others that are further away I get friends in my breed to do it for me, that live near the prospective puppy owners. that way I have some 1st hand thoughts from like minded breed enthusiasts. guess this isnt so vital in some breeds that could live easily in most situations, but its essential in my breed.

Sadly, despite breeders best efforts there will ALWAYS be dogs which need rehoming, due to numerous different reasons - I read that the largest number fo rehomes were due to family break-ups. The fact is, a home check does not ensure a dog will not need rehoming in the future. Surely the main thing is that a good breeder will AT ANY TIME IN THE DOGS LIFE be willing to have the dog back, for whatever reason? Home checks cannot prevent people moving to another home at a later date - does that mean we should then take steps to ensure the suitability of the new residence? If the new residence is deemed unsuitable what can be done?

I have horror of horrors homed two of my pups to a couple who live in a flat.  they were very honest about this.  Now they could easily have lied, given parents address etc.  After extensive questioning when they had the first I realised that they had thorughly thought their situation out from all angles, and pets were allowed in their lease with poop scoop rules applying to the comunal gardens.

It does help that they live in a cul de sac that backs straight onto public access fields and woodland.  They ahve turned out wonderful owners, and when they wanted a second pup I was more than happy.

If anyone looks on my webiste they will see losts of pics of them, their names are Ash and Zoe, and they are on the pages Pets and More Pets.

As someone said anyone breeding even a one off litter should be prepared to take responsibility for rehoming a dog they bred throughout it's life, if they are not prepared to then they shouldn't breed.

I too have homed a pup (and approved to breed rescue) to what many would think unsuitable people. Both partners (unmarried, so statistically more likely to separate) worked full time, and did not have a private garden. However in both cases the bloke was able to take the pup to work with him. It's human company dogs need as much as anything. A fantastic looking home with acres of grounds is no good if the dog is isolated.

It is my personal opinion that a big house with plenty of land and a family with lots of money quite often results in a puppy that is not lead walked often enough and more likely to be under socialised. I know of several dogs confined to small areas of very large houses in case they "make a mess" with their moulting and/or dirty feet. My sister-in-law acqired a beautiful dog for this exact reason - the moulting caused too much mess. Doubtless, anyone looking at the house and garden would have thought it "doggy heaven" but it is always down to what the PEOPLE are like. With true commitment from people who want a dog for the right reasons, as long as the right food, grooming, health care, excersise, company, training and adequate area to sleep are available, the house/flat etc. should make no difference.          

Think I know where you are all coming from as I was recently jumped on (on another forum) for admitting that I recently bought a puppy.
We returned to the same breeder we bought our first dog from. The couple were great with us, we asked loads of questions and so did they, we were there ages on each visit.
We met mum and dad, and other brothers and sisters of both our pups. The best bit was when we went back to see our second pup and ofcourse took Vahri with us. The breeder lost his breath when he set eyes on Vahri, and complimented us on having obviously taken good care of her, saying she was in excellent condition, well excerised and groomed. They were delighted and guess what? We live in flat too, but our dogs couldn't be more thought of and cared for.
I've never bred puppies and doubt I ever will - I'd want to keep them all!
I'd reckon gut instinct is the main part in choosing a new home for a puppy. After all there are no guarantees in life are there?

"It is my personal opinion that a big house with plenty of land and a family with lots of money quite often results in a puppy that is not lead walked often enough "

er....why the neccessity to lead walk???   Mine never get lead walked & I dont see the problem!

So how are they socialised and trained if they never are put on a lead? Lead walking (road work) helps to build up muscles gradually and, as far as I am concerned, is a must for puppies and young dogs. How do you get your dogs from your house to the vets or anywhere else if they are not lead trained or used to meeting people/other dogs whilst on the lead? 

They never need to be lead walked here....we have 600 acres of fields that they excercise in daily straight from the house. On the occassions we have to go up the lane to skirt the herd if they are in the immediate field, then they just walk besides me or slightly behind me until we get a few 100 yards to the gate. Most vets visits are made here but sometimes I go there & yes of course they gon a lead. Likewise they are lead trained for the show ring...but they do not need to be lead walked. Socialization is done when they meet all the farm reps and when they go to shows :)

our dogs rarely have leads on either, theyre quite happy to trot about the yard, they come when called, jump into the van when asked and when theyre out on walks they are under control without leads. It takes lots of training from puppyhood, but leads are not essential to dog walking/or socialisation IMO

I agree Our dogs are never collared or on a lead, except for visits to the vets etc. We often have friends visit, they bring their dogs and play together. We've never had a problem and all of our dogs are well trained and socialised :)

how are your puppies doing kerrie? :-)

Fine thanks, biggest one is 2lb 3oz!! cant wait for them to open their eyes :)