We took Fagan down to the village pub last night and he was playing out in the garden with a Border Collie puppy which is a month older than him.  His owner was asking me questions about Fagan - where did I get him, how much did he cost (nosey really) she then went on to say that she saw her pup in the yellow free-ad papers (the alarm bells started :rolleyes: ) she went on to say that she got him from wales, but not a puppy farm.  I had no reason to disbelieve her until she said "the breeder emailed a picture of the pup she would be having to her neighbours computer so she could see him, and we picked him up from chievely services, they had all the puppies in the car ( ) he had all his injections and came with a puppy pack" I just cant believe how naive people can be, even my OH who has never had much to do with dogs knew that was typical puppy farm practice.  Just because he came with a puppy pack and she was emailed a picture of him that meant that he wasnt from a puppy farm.  She said she wanted a lab but couldnt afford one so just paid £150 for this pup from wales.  I wwould have loved to have said something but she seemed the gobby, know it all type who would have argued every point I made so I guessed I would be wasting my breath and I didnt really want to make an enemy of her as she seemed to know everyone and I am fairly new to the village. The general public really need to be educated on this, but how ?  Only those who read dog papers and magazines find out about puppy farms you see the occasional bit in other papers but no where does it explain how clever and unscrupulous these people can be in pretending they are people they arent.  For the general public who just want a "pet" dog they wont go to breed clubs etc in search of proper breeders it just makes me mad, what can be done? :(

Claire :)

I think this goes on  because a lot of people want buying a dog to be "easy" they dont want to pay lots of money (unless its for rare breeds/bull breeds etc), they dont want to have to travel far, they dont want to be asked lots of questions about themselves and their lifestyle, they just want a puppy as quickly and cheaply as possible so this method of buying will appeal to them. we get used to having pizza delivered to our door, home shopping on the web, and ordering things with credit cards etc, this suits the puppy farmer right down to the ground as the impulse cash buyer is their best customer. the best way forward is just to keep telling people that this is the wrong way of buying a puppy and drawing their attention to good breeders. However, the more "easy" puppy farmers make things (ie Well meet you half way there, we'll send you a picture so you dont have to come and see the pups etc etc) and the "harder" good breeders make it by vetting potential buyers, its easy to see which option the lazy person will take, so we need to educate them more that a cheap puppy isnt necessariy the best or healthiest one that way they might think twice about it?

Couldn't agree more...how often do we see posts saying 'I want an xxxxx puppy,I want it now and don't want to travel.'
We don't have the 'welsh type' puppy farm where I live...they have been replaced by the puppy supermarket.Its very sad...you get up in the morning,decide you want a puppy and go along and pick one 'off the shelf'.I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken too with a dog from here and very few see aprobem with it.
Archer

The low price should have alerted her for a start.  I have worked out that with the litter expenses, stud fee etc that my pups cost me £250 each to rear, and that is if there is no need of expensive veterinary attention!

People like this dont think about the cost of rearing the pups just the price in the end.  The look on her face when I told her Fagan cost me £500 was a picture :D :D  I couldnt believe it when she turned round to me and said "so was it a Red Setter you wanted ?"  Der no I actually wanted a yorkshire terrier but settled for an Irish Setter instead :rolleyes: She must be typical of the "want one now" type of puppy buyer she obviously wondered if I just brought Fagan because I saw him advertised, not the fact that I did research and went on a waiting list for him. She said to me that she has never seen Red Setters advertised and couldnt quite grasp it when I told her in 30 years Fagans breeders had never advertised their pups because they always had people waiting for them. People like her really wind me up

Okay, first of all, I want everyone to know that I agree with all of the points examined on this board when it comes to puppy farms. There is one in the next town where I live and I despise it. But I wanted to ask..

Is it really so wrong to home a puppy from a farm? Sure, if you want a well bred dog that is show quality and possibly breeding quality, a proper breeder is the sure way to go. Naturally. But for someone who only wants a pet, what's the wrong in providing a loving home for a poor animal? We take in mixed breeds and love them dearly, dogs from puppy farms need love, too. Yes, it is probable that the puppies might carry disorders that could possibly show up later in life. That is a sad and horrid fact. But what about how the puppies feel?

If I was a puppy bred on a puppy farm and knew that I wasn't the best I could really be, I would be sad. But it would make me even sadder to think that I could offer just as much love and affection and companionship as the pure bred quality puppy bred in the house next door that is the same breed as me. I'm cheaper, I'm not as good, but I still have a soul and I still have feelings. What about me?

It is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing for puppies to be bred just for money. Its sad that the world is working with it and these farmers obviously thrive from the business. But when people are shot down because they got a puppy from a "puppy farmer" it's kind of sad.

I know, the breeders probably don't tell their buyers about the possible health issues, which is a big deal. But the puppy is still a puppy and still needs love. What is so wrong with prodviding a poor puppy with love to make its life happier?

Because every time you help the farmer shift a litter you condemn that puppies dam to rear another litter in some stinky blacked out outbuilding until her body is not capable of sustaining another litter when the farmer will dispose of her (and is unlikely to waste money paying a vet to do it humanely)

I suppose for every puppy you hear about which has come from a puppy farm and has been sick or has died, there will be several which have been lucky and have turned out ok, so people will go back there and tell their friends to do likewise. If these puppy farmers are churning out batches of pups in poor conditions then its inevitable that some will get sick :-( but I suppose not all will, there must be hundreds of dogs out there in homes which have came from puppy farms which turned out OK and so their owners think nothing of it. I think the people who have had a "bad deal" need to be much more vocal about it so that people realise they take a big risk when they buy from a puppy farm, and groups like WAG and Hope-uk are doing a brilliant job raising awareness of this

As sad as it seems, As long as people are willing to buy from them, they are going to keep providing.

Mitch

"We" all know about the horror of puppy farms, but i do think it is wrong to condem people who innocently buy dogs in this way.  For the average couple looking to get their first dog they are unlikely to know that this goes on, and to suggest the low price is a give away is totaly wrong.  What expenses do you think Jo Public are aware of?

These people may have thought long and hard about getting a dog, and researched their chosen breed at the library, but their will be little or no mention of puppy farms in most books.

Your job should be to highlight what goes on at puppy farms, write to your local paper, generate publicity about them.

looking down your noses at people who buy dogs this way, and then preaching to the converted is not the answer.

P.S I did not buy my dog from a puppy farm :)

Okay, no hard feelings, remember. :) I now understand why puppies should not be bough from a farm. I myself am not very educated on farms except that I know they are wrong and horrible. I do still feel sorry for the puppies born there, though. It isn't their fault. But I do now see the point of not buying a pup, as said the dam will then be bred again after the pups are gone. I never thought of that. I stand right beside you all in thinking of the horror of puppy farms. If only people really did know of them, they could be stopped. How come owning a puppy farm isn't illegal? Couldn't it be classified as cruelity to animals?

Oh Sibeluver - you have a soft heart but are not using your head. Each time someone buys a pup from a puppy farmer they are perpetuating this cruel trade. Think about all those poor bitches condemmned to  be bred from at every season and kept in disgusting filthy conditions until they are of no longer use. Think about all those pups who are bought on a whim and end up on deaths row because the novelty wore off. Think about all the inherited faults that are being passed on because these puppy mills won't 'waste' money to do health checks.

Of course every pup has a right to a secure loved future but they are far more likely to get that if the prospective owners have put in a bit of thought about getting a pup, have visited the breeder, have researched their breed and yes WAITED till the right pup was available. Puppy farmers cater to the 'fast food' attitude where small lives are bought on impulse - and discarded just as quickly. If nobody bought their pups then this evil trade would just die out.

Yvonne

agreed :-) its easy to feel sorry for these pups but the real answer is to walk away, report the establishment to the authorities if you believe it to be an illegal one, or you see evidence of cruelty, and try to get the place shut down, or at the very least educate local people that this is not the best place to buy a pup.

Yes I agree with all your points on here but, although it is sad about all these puppies, I feel much more sad emotions for the poor bitches that have to constantly give birth in absolutely awful conditions. Remember the pups get a different home at the end of the day where as the mothers are constantly in hell and may never feel freedom in their entire short lives.
I wrote an essay a while back on puppy farms and my English teacher told me she almost cried whilst reading it as she didnt KNOW these places existed. As she told me about my essay I could see that the thought of them really got to her and she wanted me to write to the local paper telling them not to advertise puppy farms in there and speak to other dog loving teachers about the pet shop in sutton that sells them. I think talking about puppy farms to friends and family is incredibly important to educating people about it. Remember that these people that you tell may go on to warn other people who can help even more people which could stop people buying from these cruel places.
I would love to think that some day puppy farms would stop entirely but as long as there's people who are willing to pay the price theres always going to be people who will continue using dogs in this horrible, horrible way.   

It's hard to educate people when we live in such a 'want it now' society and sadly most people only learn the hard way. When there is demand there will always be supply.

I've got first hand experience of this terrible exploitation of animals. When we got our first puppy years ago my parents didn't know the first thing about getting a dog. We drove a fair way to get her and my parents didn't think a thing of the fact that there were several puppies in a large black 'bucket'...or of the red setter in the next bucket (I know, I can hear you all cringeing). Sadly we lost that puppy to parvo, it was the first time I ever saw my father cry. Even sadder, the red setter was,by some strange coincidence, at the same vets, and she was lost too. The vet was incredible, quite a formidable character, and made sure that it never happened to anyone again from that farm. Although I don't remember how much she cost as I was very young I don't think she was cheap by any means. The vet recovered all our costs and vets fees from the irresponsible people. My parents were so careful when they got our second puppy and took lots of advice from the vet - something that any inexperienced prospective pet owner should do.

That experience is still so clear in my mind and it was almost 23 years ago now. We drove for two and half hours to see our Millie, and her mum and dad, and auntie, and her brothers and sisters...then we drove home.  At eight weeks we drove all the way back to collect her! Distance was no object to getting a happy healthy puppy BUT if I hadn't had that experience when i was younger who is to say what I would have done........

Hi All

Is there no way the relevant authorities could do an add campaign on National TV to alert members of the public about buying a puppy from puppy farms. Surely they could show some footage of how farmed puppies are reared and treated and then show how puppies who are bred with love and care are treated. This would surely alert the general public to the horrendous conditions these puppies are reared and kept in and possibly change some (you'll never change all opinions) Maybe I'm being very niave in this issue but something has to be done.

Alli

I walked out of a puppy supermarket, utterly depressed and angry...Angry cos there were so many people with their children happily picking puppies, and me thinking , do u really know what you are buying. I wouldnt mind , but the price tags on all the breeds there are far from cheap. I came out very sad, and my daughter saying ....."ah mum can we have that little lab that was on its own" (we didnt go there to buy a pup , we went to see if there was any books on bullmastiffs. And you know what ? Every book we picked up and looked through said ....make sure you see the mother with her pups....and when we asked the staff that worked there, can we see the mum...(we asked to see what dribble they would come out with)  we were told , sorry...you cant see the mum. So here they are selling books on how/and what to look for when buying a pup, and here they are doing the oppisite, my blood boils now thinking bout it. Me and my partner both bought bullmastiffs pups, and we know that if need be , we can phone the breeder about anything concerning the pups. Who can you phone for info after you have bought from a puppy supermarket....cos no-one there can give u the after-care if needed. Well thats my moan done , sorry if i went on too much.....

No you cannot ever moan about it too much.

If only good breeders who took lifelong resposibility for their puppies bred them, and no-one let their pet bitches get accidentally mated (or if they did took measures to prevent a pregnancy) then there woudl be no dogs in rescue centres at all.  The only ones rehoming dogs would be breeders themselves, and breed welfare would home those where the breeder had died or for somw genuine reason couldn;t take a dog back (even breeders circumstances change espe4ciallywith many being elderly).

I do not believe there will ever be a day that comes around that I have not learned something new about dogs here on this message board. You people are so wonderful in educated each other, I am so glad I have found you all.

I now know, thanks to you all, why puppies from a farm and pet shops should never be bought. Heck, I even had a discussion with my dad, whom I hardly ever speak with. He has a right opinion on puppy farms and despises them possibly more than everyone here! I didn't know that he even knew such horrible things.

My dad told me that he saw a farm once when he was young. He said the farmer had four to five CHAIN-LINK cages stacked on top of each other, with about ten rows of each. So that is around 50 poor bitches, all with a litter of puppies, according to my dad. He said that the dogs stacked below the dogs on top were covered in the urine and feces of the dogs on top. Have chain-link boxing, the wastes just fell right through the holes and onto the dogs below. My dad said that the dog on the very bottom of each row had probably 5 inches of much caked onto her fur, as well as the puppies.

He said that when he was there, one of the dogs was taken out of her cage. She was probably sick and was probably going to be destroyed. The poor girl couldn't walk by herself because the chain of her cage had cut into the pads of her feet so badly. Appearently, my dad and his young friends weren't supposed to be in there, and they were chased out of the building.

My dad told me that he had never forgotten that horrible experience and ever since then held a special love for every dog he saw, especially poor, homeless, pregnant bitches. He told me to never, ever buy a puppy from a person who I don't know their background and don't know much about the care of their dogs.

He said that good breeders screen their buyers when their pups are ready to leave for their new homes. But, buyers of the puppy themselves should screen the breeder just as much.

-Tara

Unfortunately I think until somebody does something about puppy farms they will be hear to stay.  You dont seem to get them down here as much (Devon) or certainly I have never seen any evidence of them.  Its a sad state of affairs but I suppose it something in life that is never going to change unless someone at the top does something about it.  Even if they just brought in some legislation and had enough money and people to police it would be something. 

I do admit to have two dogs and they are not pedigrees and were never sold as such.  But did get them from farms.  They have had their problems but with hard work and patience we have overcome them.  Unfortunately I do have a soft heart and if I ever walked into one of these places would probably try and save them all!  I guess thats just the nature of the beast as they say.

I think your dads experience of many years ago can still be found today particulary in the puppy breeding grounds of Ireland and Wales. Many people, even those involved in dogs are of the opinion that puppy farming is a thing of the past and find it extremely dificult to associate the cute puppy for sale in a pet shop* with the horrors of a puppy farm. Some how they seem to think that all these little pups have had cosseted start to life, well reared, looked after by caring breeders and given the best of everything. How wrong they are. If only, I do not know how many times I say this, if only they would when thinking of purchasing a puppy from a retail outlet think - can I see the MUM, the answer has to be no, then why do they not walk away. Invariably they are getting fobbed off but they do not think they until they get home and find the puppy has problems.
The pet shop puppy purchaser is not only getting fobbed off by buying a sickly puppy but often they pay over inflated prices too. £450 for a puppy without a pedigree or registration papers, £25 extra if you do but then only DLUK, who themselves charge £6 but the pet shop £25, what a rip off! Free insurance for 4 weeks but what they do not tell you is that it is only free if you continue with the insurance after the 4 weeks and there is still a £50 excess during the 4 weeks - how free is that? Some sell insurance but it is only valid if the puppy is taken back to be seen by the retail outlets vet - what good if that if you live miles away and the puppy is very ill during closing hours. Vaccination, that again is hit and miss, poor pup may get a jab in Ireland, another at the pet shop and then because the purchasers vet does not trust the vaccination certificate suggests that the whole regime of vaccination is restarted, from scratch - resulting in one very over vaccinated puppy, who, do to its poor start in life, is now very vulnerable with a weekened immune system to become even more vulnerable than it was before. 
I do not know how to reach the public to educate them on this issue before they purchase the puppy. Essex Trading Standards have tried by proiducing an excellent leaflet on puppy purchase, which is to be updated soon. It is a pity that the The Dog Trust or RSPCA does not become more vocal on this issue. Both have the money and could support a massive  campaign. It would be benefical to both, because whist all these puppies are being bred and I do not put all the blame on the puppy farmers, commercial breeders, back yard breeders and pet shops - there are many others within the show world that breed too many litters in the expectations of finding that special puppy, leaving with no alternative but to sell the rest off to pet homes. It is very simple there are too many puppies being bred, too many sold to dealers and pet shops and too many end up in rescue and ultimately too many being destroyed. This trade in puppies has got to be halted and one way it could be curtailed is to not allow any puppy to be sold from a third party.  This would directly affect the puppy farmer because they would not have the pet shop to sell the puppies to. There would be not point in breeding if there were not any dealers to sell the puppies to. Next identification for all puppies but this must be undertaken by the breeder, this would at least make all puppies traceable.
Without this system in place what are we left with thousands of breding bitches living a life of hell, puppies bred only to live short lives, many dying before reaching the pet shops and other soon after sale. Young puppies and dogs ending up in rescue because they have been purchased on a whim or have difficulties that owners cannot cope with.  Yes, we have the audacity to, call ourselves a country of dog lovers - I think not in all cases, we could, with a bit of effort, do far more, all of us. It is not enough to just rescue these dogs we need to get to the root of the problem.     

Sadly most of the general public are too naive and/or too soft-hearted to do what needs to be done to stamp out this evil trade.

Every single person who buys a puppy in this way condemns another bitch and her litter to a life of hell. Just who do they think they are 'saving'? Not dogs, that's for sure.