I am in total despair at the moment. I have just returned from yet another nightmare walk where ethe dogs have behaved appallingly, barking at someone who appeared on a horse, a father and daughter on bikes and my friends parents whom they know really well.
I really can't understand where i am going wrong. I tried so hard at socialisation, taking both of them out on my arms as soon as i get them home, puppy parties, different places e.t.c. Meg started classes at 5 months and ellie started at 8 weeks, and have been going every week since then (apart from holidays). Meg is working for gold KCGC and ellie for her silver. I have read all the books (well nearly all), put a lot of it into practise, they get lots of exercise, training, play, and in general they can be very good when they want to be. Infact their recall is really good USUALLY! I have made them my life!
Yet, they still let me down in so many ways. Meg is totally unreliable around other dogs and has to wear a head collar because she pulls so much. She is 2 1/2 years and has improved a lot, she used to have no recall, barked at men, children e.t.c but she still has so far to go. Ellie is 15 months and seems to be getting worse. Although better on a lead, she still has moments, and this barking thing (and has started growling at people and dogs too) is getting me down. She has been quite good until recently. The vet has said that she is going through a phantom pregnancy but i am sure that all her problems can't be down to this.
It is so upsetting, i have worked so hard and yet seem to be getting no where. I really don't want to have to keep them on leads for the rest of their lives, but i can't trust them because i never know what will be round the corner.
Where am i going wrong? Everyone else seems to have such happy, well behaved, confident dogs.

Poor you! :( But your vet has a good point - bitches can get quite stressed by phantom pregnancies, so this could well be a factor in Ellie's behaviour.

All I can suggest is that you walk them separately at the moment - yes it's a lot of hard work, and very time-consuming, but then they can't set each other off and wind each other up. You may find the behaviour of both improves.
:)

This is one reason I like to have two to three year gaps between my dogs.  I walk five 20kg Elkhounds (breed standard says bold and energetic) and people ask how on earth do you do it.  quite simple really I have never had a new dog until it's predecessor has been reliable on lead and having the manners I expect.  That way they can only learn positive things from the older dogs, and automatically emulate them, with my encouragement :D

As you older dog had issues then your younger is just following suit, you get frustrated and fel out of control and the whole things is just a vicious circle.

It is a lot more work but until both are at an acceptable level of training and behaviour you will need to take them out seperately.  You will be able to control things better, feel more confident, and this should start to take eddect on the dogs.

Yes, I agree, Brainless. I take our two labs out separately - nine months and nearly two - and I'm sure one of our neighbours thinks I'm mad... but they both enjoy the one-to-one, and I am confident doing this.
I also agree about the two to three year gap being ideal - but our bitch was unexpectedly pregnant when we bought her, so we kept a puppy! Life doesn't always work out as one might have planned. In fact, we would never have considered having a second dog, but we're very glad we've got him!
Cathy.

I know having two close together is not ideal, but i really thought it was going to be ok. Meg was pretty good when we got ellie, walking on a lead was much better, recall was good and she was really good with other dogs. If only my crystal ball had been working! ;-) I wouldn't change it now though, although they are hard work, but hopefully once ellie comes out of adolescence things might get better. I used to take them out separately up until the beginning of this year, but because meg needs so much exercise i find it difficult to take them out separately. But from now on i will certainly try to give them some more individual time.

Have you tried the head harness that goes round thier nose?...worked well with my dog...also im sure youve tried the pocket full of sausages trick.....just give them a wee bit out of your pocket while walking every now and again...and let them see it comes out of your pocket...use sausages not silly dog biscuits or stuff...soon they start to walk right at your side looking at your pocket al the time...keep it up for a while and it may help...good luck

Hi lucy and meg, I can reallly relate to the " everyone else seems to have such happy confident dogs" feeling and wishing you could see a bit more results for effort. Keep listing what the girls do well, the situations you avoid/control by using a lead ( meeting a horserider with a free range Morse would terrify me!) and by understanding that you cant see around corners. Dump all commitments that interfere with taking the girls out seperately- housework/TV is vastly overrated and OH wont notice your out( sorry Im being flippant). Give yourself a break and search out the positive while your training the desired behaviour. When I felt as low as you do now, I used to see my chum with her  3 lovely obedient dogs and measure Morse and I to the same standards which really put me in a pit. Then one morning I saw her young bitch stick 2 fingers up .. they all have their day whoever owns them, as my friend tells me gladly. Youll get there with the girls. :)

Hi Lorelei and LucyAndMeg,

Just wanted to say that I'm also in the club of feeling like I have the demon puppy whilst everyone else has perfect dogs, especially as - like LucyAndMeg - I have put a lot of effort into research and socialisation and training - and feel like I'm not getting any results at all. As you can see from my thread about "Cocky pup asserting dominance" - I'm finding it really difficult and upsetting at the moment and really struggling with Honey. Especially as you feel like you have tried all the usual advice people suggest and it doesn't work as easily as they say.
Lorelei, I so agree about seeing other friend's dogs making it worse - ever since Honey's sister came to live in Auckland after she was adopted as a pet by friends, I have been feeling worse and worse as I keep comparing Honey to her and am appalled at how she can behave so badly when her sister behaves so well - and they are the same age and size. I know her sister has grown up at the breeders with 7 other dogs but it still really hurts when you see your friends having it so easy - and they haven't put in anything like the time and effort you have plus they do lots of "wrong" things - and yet their dog is so well-behaved and a pleasure to be around. It is so disheartening. And it's awful and mean but I do often secretly wish that other people's dogs would act up and misbehaver, just to give me a bit of a boost. I'm happy when I hear that Honey's sister has misbehaved, even just a tiny bit, and then I'm ashamed that I feel that way! :(

Hi Hsinyi, so youre human what a surprise! :) Comparisons are always odious so dont do it! Morse is my first dog so it was a case of the blind leading the blind while I learned things like timing rewards, a dogs view of the world etc. Nobody has perfect dogs. My friend is the envy of the neighbourhood with her 3 yet she has spent literally years training them and never stops training the young bitch as she is very strongwilled. With us we got to a really low point like you describe with the "why isnt this working when Ive done it right and soooo often ?" then started to come up again. It takes a lot longer than you think it will and at times we expect far too much of baby pups. Morse is more mature than he was, but in human terms hes about 14 years old ( hell be 2 in September) so he still has his moments. The difference is I am better at handling them and a lot calmer. You will get there with Honey just keep calm and consistent, dont expect an old head on young shoulders and list all the things you do well together especially on a bad day. :)

Thanks, you have really help me to put things in perspective. But i do find it so hard not to compare them to other dogs though. Sometimes i think hte most infuriating thing is that i spend so much time doing the 'right ' things, going to training classes, doing the homework, reading and researching and then you see someone who has never really done any of this and their dog is actually more well behaved than my own! Thing is though, is that it is so easy to forget that they are still babies really isn't it? Most of the dogs i compare mine to are actually much older than my girls so perhaps in a few years time they may get there. (Well either that or i have a breakdown! ;-) )
Of course it doesn't help that i am incredibly competitive and a perfectionist either!

HI,
If it's any help, I have 2 litter brothers (not my choice, but sometimes breeders can't be choosers!) and they have been reared in exactly the same way, and they are very different characters training-wise. One is a dream on the lead, the other still leads, given half a chance (they are nearly 5 years old). One was a horrid teenager at recall, but is very good now, the other is the opposite.

Basically, don't make the mistake of comparing one pup to another. They are different entities.

...and I like to add a quote from Lorelei when I was feeling down, about hanging your pride up at the door when you go out! Just when I think we're finally getting there, Sparky will do something completely out of the blue, like decide the person over there has got to be more interesting than me, but would look even better with a couple of muddy prints on their bum! Like the others say, you have to remember the things they do right - and there will be a lot of things that your girls are doing right, I bet. It's so tempting - and soul destroying - to start comparing them to other dogs - I have to suffer a brother in law with 3 impeccable labs - all gun dogs who never so much as leave his side for a sniff without looking for permission first - what makes it worse is that Sparky is ALWAYS at his worst when we are with them - never does any of his good stuff! I spent half an hour on Sunday parked on their drive while they were in the house, taking Sparky out of the car on his own and trying to cross their road without him pulling. He did it in the end :), probably because I was on my own and not as stressed out about him showing me up in front of the others! The problem is, Sparky's very best friend in the world at the moment is one of their boys - who is only a couple of months older than him. They have such a lovely time when they get together that I haven't the heart to stop walking with them.

Definately don't lose heart. These dogs, Honey, Meg and Ellie are still young dogs. They're teenagers. Did you ever raise teenagers? A-h-h-h-h-h-h!!!!!! My dogs are pretty well behaved most of the time. But they too have their moments of total out of controllness (is that a word? don't think so). We go on off leash walks all the time on or near the golf course or other hiking trails in the wilderness here. We were, last week walking up a dirt road along side the golf course, because there are golfers out at this time of year so we have to stay away from them. Normally the dogs come along and stay on the dirt path/road. Well.....Jose, my worst listener saw a guy teeing off on a green and ran to see him and the others followed suit. They're all wanting to say "Hello" and Lyric thought it would be great fun to go get that golf ball that was situated just so for the man to hit. I screeched, "LEAVE IT!" And thank goodness he did! And thank goodness the man was laughing and loved dogs and bent to pat them. I was quite embarrassed, needless to say. Then they came along and we continued our walk. How awful is that to disturb a golfer????

Then when people come over to my house, the dogs think it's their birthday party or something. The Chihuahuas can't keep their tongues in their mouths and jump onto laps and lick, lick, lick. (a-r-g-g-g) The Doberman leans up and practically sits on their laps and reaches his face right up into the person's face. People that don't know him that well wonder how in the world they're letting a Doberman's mouth so close to their face. Then up goes a paw onto their lap. He's just so dang affectionate once he knows they're friends and is so "in your face." My Lab is the only one who stands back a little. She just wants her rump scratched and she waggles her whole body, but she's not so intrusive. So, we have some manners to work on too. And the girls are not puppies. LOL. Jose is about 2 and Lyric about 1. Chulita is 4 and Bonnie Lab is 13. So, in some ways, they never grow up and who would want it.....right? LOL Maybe we could all take a lesson from them on how to enjoy life....such gusto.

Carrie

Hi Tracy, Im not surprised poor Sparky goes off his nut when alongside his " perfect cousins" the gun dogs. Goody 2 shoes have that effect on me too :D Heres a wee quote from Satan FIlly fpr when your next out with BiL " Calm doon, Tam Broon!" See once I relax and say " Im oot the game, hen!" or translated " I refuse to distress myself by competing with such superior opposition" I find Manic Morse and I get on much better. And Sparky is giving little gun dog some fun which is good for him :)

This morning i went for a lovely walk with the girls, i was determined to look on the bright side and i have to say they behaved themselves impeccably. A couple of bikeriders appeared behind us, so i called the dogs back and they sat in front of me beautifully until they passed. I was so pleased, and like you say i had something positive to focus on. That is until i took meg to training class and she was bl**dy awful! She kept eyeing up all the dogs and lunged at poor shadow the hovavart three times. I can only presume it was a combination of heat and a new dog sat in the corner causing her to be super sensitive. We then went on another walk and she had a mad barking session at a boy and a rottie, that appeared in front of us. On the plus side however she did come back on the second call! Ellie is behaving quite nicely though, so things arent too bad!!

it always feels like you have the un trainable dog on the lead.but you aren't by yourself i have 1 that has a mind of his own some times.some times i wonder if he has got a brain in that big head of his,but they are all different and some take more than most.

I have a friend with Hovies and she says the black and tan eye markings can make some breeds think they are staring. Of course if it was a black that wouldn't apply also Rotties have same markings. Just a thought not an excuse but a reason?? My Boxers tended to stare not challenge just silly Boxer thing which nearly got them into trouble. Spent all my time saying Don't stare.

lucy and meg

check your PMs.

Hi! i think you are doing well! there are problems which you are overcoming,EVEN if occassional you take a step backward,if youve put the work in (which you have) you will soon be moving in a forward direction again!
i wish you lived nearer so i could take you out for a walk with my gang, ive not met a dog that dosent get on with tara! shes perfect for nervy unsure dogs,dosent interfere,is calm,but a strong in control type. if you can find someone around you to walk with with some steady dogs im sure its going to help!

Glad you had a better walk Lucy and meg :). Better to have a fillip at the class and get help with it right away than in the middle of a recreation ground.