Hello.Does anyone know of any rescue centres preferably in the North West that would rehome a dog if it was to live at a stables.I am currently building a livery yard but for added security I would like to have a long haired GSD live in the stables during the night.He/she would have a warm dry stable and be able to move about the yard freely 24/7.He would have company during the day from humans and other dogs but be on his own during the night.
He would be well fed and cared for , exercised well over our 100 acres and still given lots of love and training.
However I dont know if I was to say to a rehoming centre that he would be at a premises with no humans on site over night that they would let me have a dog.
Does anyone know of the best people to ask?
I could just get a puppy but I think it would be nice to give an unwanted dog a chance to have a new home and a job too do.
Anyone have any ideas?

Be aware that if you intend using this dog for guarding purposes you will be required to have special notices saying so and the dog must either be accompanied by a handler at all times or be securely penned in where no one can come into contact with it!

You can be sued, even by burglars etc, if your dog does bite anyone!

The rescue I am involved with covers your area but as these are rescue dogs they would not be allowed to be supplied as a guard dog on premises without a handler/owner.

GSDs are a very socialable breed & are not suited to being left to their own devices as guard dogs neither is any breed to be honest

This is why the government of the day brought in the law re handler or secure kennelling on unoccupied premises

You must be honest with any rescue regarding wanting a guard dog as certainly the one I help do spot checks on placed dogs & also you would have a vetting visit & references from vet re previous dogs owned

Thankyou. Yes of course I would be completely honest with any rescue centre about what the dog would be doing.He would be in a secured environment and I have been told by a police officer a way to get around 'having your dog chained up '.However I shan't repeat that here.
I curently own a GSD and and have owned several over the years so I do feel in a position to know about there characters.As stated before the dog would only be on his own during the night when as other dogs in houses would be on there own.Too me he would have a far better home than most domestic dogs who are shut up in houses while there owners are at work , and who only go out for a short walk aday.
We would put up signs warning of dogs loose but as someone said on a previous thread the dog would be at agricultural premises so the law isnt the same as business premises.
Thanks for your help

You have a strange idea about"domestic pets"being shut up by their owners & being left all day.The law is quite clear if anyone was to enter the premises &be harmed by the dog dispite the warning signs you would still be liable

I won't say I wish you luck getting a GSD rescue as they need to a domestic home on the whole & few are suited to be"working guard dogs"I have only been involved with GSDs for 46 years & for most of them I have known the rescue I now help with & I know there would not be many dogs that would cope with being loose on it's own overnoght-your experience of GSDs however may be the complete opposite

You will probably find a rescue that will sell you a GSD(ours are not sold but donations are accepted-never asked for)but I think you would be better off with a good alarm system

dear maddy, some rescue centres may be cautious about rehoming a dog to you if you were going to be using it as a guard dog, I am interested in getting involved with rescue and when I rang up one of the large cat and dog homes recently to arrange to visit, I had a chat with the staff about their policies and was told they do homechecks for big breeds like GSD rottie etc and they dont allow them to go to homes where they will be used as a aguard dog.

Its good that you are being honest and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with wanting a dog as a guard as well as a pet. we bought our mastiff cross as a guard dog, but hes a part of the family too and as well as wandering the yard during the day when were about, he sleeps indoors at night and often gives warning of his presence to any visitors we may have!!

If youre property is an equestrain one as ours is too, then it sounds ideal, and I think it is a better environment as you say than a dog locked up in a flat while the owners are at work all day. however, the rescues may not see it that way, so bear that in mind and try not to be offended if they say no to your application.

there are often homeless dogs advertised in the free papers, so you may be able to offer a home to one of these unwanted dogs instead, but you will get very little background information and the dog could well have behavioural or health problems. a young dog may be your best compromise. wish you all the best with your search.

Russett

Thrusting a rescue GSD into a stables & leaving it to roam alone overnight is not ideal neither is leaving a GSD locked up in a flat all day either

Most GSDs come into rescue with issues that make them not suitable to such environments.

I do wish people would not assume ALL GSDs are suitable as guard dogs, they are by definition not a guard dog no matter what Joe Public sees them as.

The Guarding breeds are those that have been developed as guarding breeds ie the mastiffs & the continental guarding breeds like Dobermanns & Rottweilers & none should be expected to guard on their own without human supervision.

I would just like to say that I know our local rescue centres would not let you keep a rescue dog on its own unsupervised.  You will also find that most rescue centres will do homechecks.  IMO leaving any dog unsupervised to guard your premises is asking for trouble like someone else mentioned a good alarm and/or cctv would be better.

Michelle :)

<<<there are often homeless dogs advertised in the free papers>>

every dog deserves a good loving home wherever it has come from

Please Lel could you explain in what way this dog wouldnt have a good home ?

IMO it is better for a dog to be somewhere such as these stables, than in kennels where it is couped up for much of the day. At a stables it would be around people for much of the day compared to getting little human attention in kennels. I'm sure the dog would enjoy being free and socialising during the day, and having a quiet night, compared to kennels where the dog gets 2 brief walks and a quick pat.

Thankyou Russet for a vote of confidence.
Okay I need to delve into this idea of what constitutes a good guard dog a little more then .I do not wish to have some crazy , snarling , barking machine locked up to go wild from lack of human stimulation and expect it to fend off looney theives all night long perhaps as a police dog would need to do say at a football riot ect.However firstly the reason why I thought of a long haired GSD was firstly so it was able to keep itself warmer when walking outside of its own choice rather than a short haired breed.The other reason a GSd because I know by nature actually how pleasant and affable they are.Yes they will bark and make their presence known but in most cases would usually lick you to death if actually confronted.Yes I shall be having an alarm fitted so if someone was to open the gates I would be alerted but I'm afraid in my circumstances CCTV isnt, I am led to believe, a viable option and it isnt because I think having a dog a cheaper option.I do worry that leaving my horses locked in a stable at night some silly kids could easily come and set fire to the place, however if there was a dog in the yard to bark at them I am sure they would think twice and three times about it.A friend of mine keeps their GSD outside at home.The dog sleeps in the porch.She is allowed to roam the garden at night and in the day gets taken for walks.However she is never let in the house but she is treated as part of the family.She is a very happy and very healthy example of a GSD.
I agree maybe alot of GSD's that come into the rescue centres wouldnt be suitable to be living outdoors but to have a blanket policy I personally think is ridiculus.How many dogs in this country live as an only dog.They all sleep on their own or are we to be led to believe they all sleep on their owners bed?
Surely  given the choice some dogs would much rather have the life I describe than spend years in some cases than in these rescue homes behind lock and key waiting for the perfect owner to come along!

maddy it sounds like you have a decent home to offer a dog, I see no difference in leaving a gsd in a nice warm stable overnight, with food and water, to a dog being left overnight in boarding kennels!  you have obviously given the matter plenty of thought and are to be commended for choosing to offer a home to a "second hand" dog rather than go out and buy a puppy (which incidentally would probably be an easier option from the point of training)

If the dog is with you during the day, receives plenty of attention, training love and exercise then I see no reason why making a secure pen for the dog within the stable facilities would not be adequate. there would need to be suitable bedding, food and water, and the dog should not be left there longer than overnight (say 10pm or whenever you "lock up" for the night, until 7-8 am the next morning)

our boarding dogs are given the last rounds at around 10-11pm they are checked to make sure they are all ok, and then thats it until the morning when they are fed/cleaned out/exercised.

I personally think if you have a good set routine, this should not be a problem to you owning a dog.

obviously you would need to try and look for a dog with a good, stable temperament, and accept it will take time and lots of TLC on your part to help the dog as it gets used to its new surroundings.

I hope you find what you are looking for :-)

Hi Maddy,

I do not see any problem in what you want to do.  You want a dog that is around and socializing with people all day.  I am sure you will bring it into your home and so it's familiar with home life.   However, you would like it to sleep outside in a sheltered area (your barn) so that it may act as a deterrent (aka guard dog) if someone comes onto your property to do your livestock harm.  It sounds like a very good life for a dog to me.  German Shepherds, like 99% of all dogs, are territorial and most will put up a good show if a stranger shows up unexpectedly, acting strangely, at a strange time. 

However, I would also be concerned about your liability and talk to a solicitor and the police before you go ahead.  If your GSD woofs and a burglar or yob falls over themselves in fear and breaks a leg, you do no want to be liable. 

I agree with Moonmaiden.  Longcoated GSDs have an incorrect coat for the breed and many are not weather proof because they are too open.   Too open meaning the outer coat exposes the undercoat to the cold and weather.  I've known many GSD breeders who kept their dogs in outside runs during the day in weather that is far more extreme than in the UK and they all did fine.  All had correct coats.  Sleeping in a barn will be no problem. 

Stacey

Stacey

Maddy will be leaving the dog alone all night running free not in her home or in a kennel/stable which is far from ideal for any dog

Guard Dogs Act (1975)

It is an offence to let guard dogs wander freely and unsupervised on private land or in any public place.

Section one of the act says that you must clearly display a warning on all outside walls stating that a guard dog is on site. You could be fined up to £5,000 for not displaying a sign.

Section seven of the act says that the guard dog must:

be supervised by a handler at all times; and
be on a secure lead that does not stretch over the whole property.
You could be fined £5,000 if you do not keep to this law.

moonmaiden, I found your post a little confusing.

If the GSD is no good as a guarding breed then why is it so popular as a patrol and police dog? in the armed forces? for private security companies?

the GSD is by nature a very family-bonded and attentive, intelligent dog which can be trained to a high standard.

most GSDs are watchful of strangers, will sound warning of intruders, and have a strong sense of bonding with their owners. I think this is what maddy seems to be looking for and IMO there is no reason why a GSD would not suit, provided she is careful to get the right dog to suit her, and that they spend lots of time together bonding/training etc.

They are not guard dogs they are by name a SHEPHERD breed They are used by the police etc because they can be TRAINED to adapt to many situations. However you as a member of the general public are under the misaprehension that they are guard dogs because they are used by people incorrectly. The Police & armed forces are moving from gifted dogs to using dogs from lines breed to be able to carry out the duties they require(they are also using breeds that are bred to guard too)

Taking a rescued pet & expecting it to guard alone is a dangerous thing. This is why the Governemnt made the rules re guard dogs & handlers

You clearly think that long coat GSDs have dense under coats to protect from cold & heat-big mistake they have incorrect under coat lacking the density of a correctly coated dog & they in general have a profuse non waterproof long top coat & little or no under coat-I have friends with long coats that have be dried throughly after getting wet in the rain & that suffer when it is cold-on the other hand a correctly coated GSD needs only a quick towel over to take off the surface damp-the under coat preventing the wet reaching the skin

I take it this "guard"dog will be fully trained to recognize the difference between threatening & non threatening human body language whilst it is left on it's own & that your insurance company is happy to cover all costs if an incident occurs when the dog is on it's own ? It will be trained to return to it's stable on it's own if a fire did break out & you were not there to make it do so so that the fire service can do their job ? or allow them to enter the premises without "detaining"them. You will be training correct "manwork" techniques to the dog as the armed forces"patrol"dogs are taught(this involves uniform recognication training for the dog so that the dog will detain only non uniformed trepassers-used in the USA for protecting secret bases & the dogs are usually dobermanns/rottweilers in the US)

It is not as simple as getting a dog & letting it loose overnight

I have no doubt you will get a dog to"protect"your stables, we have recently had such a dog offered to our rescue aged 9 & no longer able to do the job so not wanted & in the first stage of MD. Not suited to any other life she will be taking up a kennel in our rescue for the rest of her life(thus stopping maybe 100 other dogs being taken in & rehomed)& eventually maybe in 3-5 years time going off her legs altogether & being PTS-she is not house trained & is distressed indoors as she has never known life as a house dog as well as other problems-Oh yes she is a L:C & has had to be clipped out as her coat was matted & she stank to high heaven

One thing I do know it will not be from our rescue

Edited to add
most GSDs are watchful of strangers, will sound warning of intruders, and have a strong sense of bonding with their owners

Er what is that all about ? The suspicion of strangers was part of the UK 1950's breed standard to hide the fact the top show dogs were nervous- No GSD shuld be "watchful"f strangers They should be confident outgoing dogs that have trust in all humans & the bond they develop is no strainger than any other dog. To say they should be otherwise showing a lack of in depth knowledge of the breed

My cavaliers sound a warning re strangers more often than my GSD & are very bonded to me-doesn't make them good guard dogs tho'

Is the law on having unattended guard dogs different for business and agricultural property?
Would have thought that in the agricultural setting the fencing around the dog would have to be so secure as to render the dogs use as a 'guard' totally unless. Any interference to local and not so local wild life or farm stock would be placed at the door of the 'guard dog' and whether guilty or not the pressure would mount to have the dog destroyed. In these days of electronic aids the need for a guard dog is surely redundant, there is still a use for handled dogs, of course, the main one for both police and other services, is to search, something that is difficult to do by any other means, and in some cases to control, as go it alone guards I would say the dog is no longer needed or used.

What an emotive subject this is when I read the original posting I thought this sounds like a good life for and unwanted  Dog lots of space and companionship in the day,I didnt look at it that she wanted a guard dog but a deterant,most people looking at a GSD will be wary we have a 15 year old  a s soft as anything but if she is in the front garden no one will enter the gate.
I have to admit that I too classed them as guarding breed maybe its all those second world war films of GSds patrolling grounds etc..
Its good that you are all putting us right in a positive way and a way people can understand.
By the way my 15 year old came as a foster and never went home I didnt get her as a guard dog my maltese would do a better job.:)

Forgot to say sometimes some "dogs roaming free do not enter etc..  SIGNS " can make a difference even if no dogs there.

Mattie

Thanx for interpreting what I & others have said in the manner in which it was meant, our wants are the best for the dogs that come to us. The GSD "guarding"role for which it was bred was to guard the pasture from the sheep & keeping the sheep in an area that the shepherd wants them in, not to drive off wolves etc or humans(hence the requirement for the dog to have good endurance & being able to gait for lond periods)Traditinally the sheep were "guarded"by Hovawarts(sic)but they too were not good guards often being stolen along with the sheep)

We must get 20 calls a week from similar people wanting a GSD for stables/farm etc as a "pet"but to be left alone at night & they never get a dog from us for the reasons I have stated..

The old idea of the GSD being a good guard dog & deterent is based on a lot of myth My BC is a far better watchdog & is more territorial than any GSD I have ever owned-the only danger from my GSD is being knocked over & licked to death

The day of the "guard"dog should really be over no animal should be used in this way when we have all the electronic devices available. Better the dogs be used as aids to people(SARDA dogs etc)than to bite & frighten

What defence has a dog got against a criminal with a gun intent on theft/damage etc-none is the answer

well, on the whole I would say that from what maddy told us, she appeared to be offering a good home for a dog, no different to lots of other dogs throughout the Uk which fulfill some sort of role as a watchdog.  what about the thousands of farm collies all  over the UK which sleep out in the farmers barn and have the run of the yard when they are not working sheep or cattle, do they have a bad life just because they are not kept indoors and mollycoddled?  a farmer near us has a collie and a GSD which are both getting on a bit and they have the run of the yard, any time we go to visit they are usually sunning themselves quite happily on the doorstep, and they will sound a bark or two then approach with wagging tails! they are not smelly or matted and have IMO a very good life of leisure! I think dogs in kennels can be just as happy as indoor dogs if they are given lots of love and stimulation/exercise/human interaction.  I say this not just as an ordianry member of the public, but as a boarding kennel owner, and someone who has had dogs all their life. (admittedly not GSDs, but I have experience of other large breed dogs) As maddy said the dog would be on a busy yard where it would receive lots of attention, and would be required more as a warning and deterant than anything else. I dont think she is looking for a fully trained attack dog! just a dog in need of a home which would be able to adapt to life around the stable yard.

I hope she finds a suitable dog and im sure when she does it will have a good home for life.

keep us updated maddy, Id like to know how your dog gets on, its nice to be able to help unwanted dogs and its also nice to be able to prove people wrong sometimes :-)

thankyou all for your comments.
Mattie that was what I intended, a nice life for an unwanted dog.Could I firstly add a couple of points.Moonmaiden , right in my first post I said the dog would sleep in a warm and comfortale stable.He would if he so wanted be able to go outside and wander the yard.He wouldn't however be made to stay in the yard with no cover.I understand in your job that you must see some horrendous cases of neglet and abuse and this must make you extremely wary and sceptical of peoples motives.I thankyou for doing such a worthy job and taking care of our unwanted animal friends.You have made some very valid points that I have to admit I hadn't thought about.Firstly I wasn't aware that nowadays long haired  GSD's aren't bred to have the coats they should have.I would definately have to look into that point futher and take advice on it.Also I hadnt thought about the case of what happened if the fire crew couldnt get into the stables because of the dog, good point.I again would have to try and sove that problem too.
I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree about the suitability of keeping a dog on its own at night.
Just out of interest what breeds do you think are the best for guarding and for keeping warm in wet and cold weather ( although I know you dont approve  in practice ) ?

Can I just add also that I have had dogs all my life and never once have I passed the buck on to a rehomoing centre to sort my dog out when it was no longer wanted or fitted in.My dogs and my horses are incredibly important in my life and I would never take on an animal if I wasnt fully comitted to giving it a good home for life.

However thinking about it all and reading everyones views I think that I doubt I will go down the road of getting a dog for the stables, too be honest as I am such a soft touch I probably wouldnt be able to leave it there overnight anyway.I would feel sorry for him and want to bring him in to the house by the fire with my other dogs.
Maybe I could get a tape of a dog barking and put it on a sensor......who knows.....
Just hope the horses dont get burnt alive !!

The bitch lived in a stable & was left out all night but with access to the stabnle.Now she is going lame she is no longer wanted The coat was clipped because the owenr had not realized under the long long cost there were matts & she did smell of horse mature basically

Why would a guard dog stop your horses being burnt to death ? A stables that had an arson attack had three Rotties as guards dogs, they were of no use stopping the srson attack as they had been doped & luckily the dogs & horses were saved by a local farmer whose in door collies  raised the alarm by barking & awaking him & he called the fire services

Where there are other livestock involved & a dog is needed or wanted a rescue of fairly unknown nackground(which could include undisclosed stock chasing of course)a puppy would be a better choice

Rescue dogs needed careful placement into stress free environment

Yes you can get noise activated sounds of dogs barking electronic devices & coupled with a good security CCTV system would be a much better idea at detering intruders especially if there is a dog around albeit in the house-intruders are not likely to know this

I do not recommend any breed as a guard dogs as like I said before the days of unaccompanied guard dogs should be well & truely over

As to farm dogs being loose iin the yard 24/7, all good stock men keep their dogs either with them, in the house or more likely in secure kennels & runs. This is not just their choice but to cover thenm for Health & safety issues on the farms The increasing number of on farm accidents mean the HS are very keen on safety for all on farms. & yes I have seen a lot of farm dogs that a good brushing would not go amiss

uummm , your posts do come across Moon maiden as very hostile.I have been very open about my wishes and have simply only asked questions to help me make up my mind on this subject.Just because a dog spends it days with horses , it doesn't necessarliy follow that it will be allowed to smell and become matted.Please give some of us mere 'public' an allowence for some decency and intelligence.We aren't all inhumane ,non caring monsters.
On the subject of the fire, the reason I was worried is that where we are building the stables is a disused Quarry.It is at the moment a place where a few kids go and have a smoke and to get away from 'itall'.However when we take over I shall be putting a stop to them using the land.I was worried they may get in anyway and at night continue to smoke around the stables.As I'm sure you'll realise smoking and stables dont go together.My thinking behind it was if there was a dog in the yard barking at them it would be enough of a deterent to move them on too find alternative land.If they are actually intent on Arson then all the dogs and security in the world wouldn't stop them.

The issue of dogs chasing sheep  is not a worry as the dog would be securly fenced .Also too be honest I'd rather pay a £5,000 pound fine than run the risk of my horses getting harmed.
As stated in my other post CCTV is NOT available to me because of where the premises are however I shall definately be getting every other type of alarm possible but as I dont live at the premises I wont be able to hear the alarm, it would have to radioed through to me.By the time I get up there at least 10mins would have gone by.Like I said before the dog would only be a deterent to someone walking past and might make them think ''perhaps wont bother going in there then'' I'm not expecting it to be able to attack someone entering the premises.In fact I wouldnt want an aggresive dog as in the day I want him to socialise with humans and other dogs.
.I am also not allowed to have a handler with a dog at night as I have no living quaters for the person overnight and Planning will not allow me any ,even a caravan.
I'm not sure how we got onto the idea of dogs not being brushed, yes obviously you see this in your job but it doesnt mean everyone is like that.
As you say however if I was to go down that line then maybe a puppy would be better.

Maddy please read my posts

Where did I mention sheep chasing I put stock which includes horses you would be very lucky to get a rescue dog that was known to be horse proof

There is nothing to stop you employing professional security protection for your stables, a friend is developing his equestrian centre & has just such cover-no living accommodation needed as they do not live on the site-only act as guards-they have dogs(fully trained dobermanns bred by the company I believe in germany from working lines)which are never left alone.

Your stables will have to have sanitation if you have day time staff or horse owners there  & an office etc which can be used by the security people otherwise a portacabin can be supplied for their use they do not need a caravan or sleeping quarters

Why no CCTV the signals can be remotely accessed-a lot of farmers around here use this for their more remote fields especially in the lambing season & just after the ewes have been returned to their summer pastures

Your dog will have to be trained NOT to attack but only bark leaving it open to being attacked itself if intruders came. Believe me if someone wants to get into your stables no dog on it's own will stop them a shotgun would put an end to any "protection"a dog could offer, dogs cannot call the police or fire service in the event of a break in or arson attack

Sorry but dogs that live closely with horses do smell of them not unpleasant to me but to some people any animal type smell is not nice-the poor bitch actually smelt of horse manure not horses(the words of the rescue kennel girl who has horses too-she is thinking of having the old girl as her stables are attached to her parent's farm & she's working on her dad to let her rescue yet another unrehomeable dog & she was the one who clipped & bathed the bitch)

Sorry if you don't like what I write but IMHO no dog should be let alone to act as a guard dog

thousands of dogs are pts every year .alot of dogs were pts yesterday because of the hoilday period .there could be a gsd just like maddy wants but because it has no where to go it will be pts .maddy could save that dog from its death couldent she? im sure that maddy would not neglect a dog . as long at the dog is with someone in the day and when ever possible i dont see a problem with this . some people crate dogs for over 4 hours i cant see the difference this dog will be able to freely move around a large area im sure with a drink mabe some food and a bed . What time would you leave the stables? and what time will you return . im sure for most of the time shes not there the dog would sleep anyway
anyone can go to there local pound and buy a dog . this is the fullest the pounds have ever been lots of pups . but beware you dont know there personalities and you dont know if they have pavo ect .if you were to go along these lines i would suggest putting the dog in foster with someone without dogs.
If someones determind to get a dog they will . so theres no point moaning just give advice and try to be helpful.
Im sure maddy wouldent neglect a dog .Ill have a word with other rescue's see what they think of the situation .

I am also sure the poster Maddy is a very caring person she stuck her neck out here for and opinion and she got plenty.I am sure any dog she eventually takes will be loved and cherished.We let a labrador from our rescue go to such a home the reason being after eating his way through two houses and through walls it was decided he would rather not live in a house.
He went to  a lady with horses he was 7 and no way would settle to a house dog he is still there he walks miles with her checking her fences he had never seen a horse but soon ajusted to them.The alternative was pemanently kenneled or a cage and both those lives would be wrong for him.
Its just that there may be a dog somewhere under threat who fit in for this lady.

as i was perusing this subject I remembered many years ago being very worried about a GDS guarddog he lived at the back of a chineese chip shop near our pub I lost a lot of sleep over that poor dog.they were very cruel to him.RSPCA said he had shelter and food and water so he was ok.
Funny one day he just disappeared and they never found him .  :)

I wrote this poem for him.

The Lonely Guard Dog.

I am a lonely Guard dog, tied up in a yard
I'm here all day and all night too
I wish that I could play with you
I'm supposed to be quite viscous
I'm supposed to bark a lot
Look at this chain around me
This yard is all I've got.
I wish I was just three weeks old
And curled up with my Mum
She used to be so warm and Kind
I wish I had a Chum.
My own mum used to tell me
That one day I would see
Fields for me to roam in
A garden to run free
A warm and cosy kennel and a comfy bed
Oh Mum I wish that you were here
I wish that I was dead
If that kind lady was to come
who took my litter Brother
Then I could have a lovely home
And a human Mother
If I'd have been some other dog a breed of other kind
I could have been a family pet
or companion to the blind.
So if you hear me barking
Please don't turn away
Talk to me a minute
I wish that I could Play !

By Glenys Fryer (copywrite)

agreed :-)  I for one would help this lady, if I were in a position to do so, she is being very open and honest about her intentions and risking being "dissected" for doing so :-(

I have noticed that most  people defend their chosen breed very fiercely, which is commendable, but I feel that some people take it a little too far and it may be offputting to people who are interested in owning that breed as they could be made to feel as though they are "not good enough" owners simply because they are honest enough to state that the dog will not be kept indoors and treated as a lapdog.

Sorry but a rescue GSD would not be suitable I have suggested a puppy as this at least would be from a known background, but still basically being used in contravention of the law as an unaccompanied gurad dog

Don't forget this dog will be left totally alone & vunerable to mistreatment by intruders ie being doped, poisoned, shot or worse during the night

& of course if the dog caught & detained an untruder & caused any damage to same would have to bear the ultimate penalty being PTS

Sorry but no GSD that comes to our rescue is PTS unless it is though ill health

Hi Everyone.Once again thankyou for your support.I think we are probably going around in circles now.I just want to finish by saying that Mattie I am sat here at my computer with one of my danes on one side and the other Dane on the other ,both with there heads on my knee ,with tears in my eyes reading your poem.It was lovely.Thankyou.

AS said before I am rethinking getting a dog now specifically for the yard , I will probably just take my 3 boys up with me at 7 am every morning and let them stay with me all day.Then when I do the late night shift around 10 pm ish I'll take them back with me to check the horses.Too be honest my Danes are the best Guards you could get.Even better than my GSD. ( as long as its not raining then they wont be shifted from the fire ). Then I shall if I can get one ,have a barking alarm so anyone would think it was one of my dogs left overnight.
The reason why I have bought this land is precisely because I believe animals -horses and dogs, have the right to run and be free without having to be shackeld , or put on leads or shouted at while they have fun and live life as Animals would want to live it not as we think they should live it, cooped up with only our say so when they get to run and play and socialise.
Oh and I think it was Russet who said prove them wrong.Iv'e already done that in my small way by having 3 large Male dogs living together in perfect harmony , I was told by many it could never be done but it has.

I have taken on board what you have said Moonmaiden and although not entirely agreed I thankyou for your comments.
If anyone does know of any rescue centres that do have open minds about potential homes and vets everyone on their own merits without predudice I would still like to hear about them.Even if I get asked by someone else.

Oh and I think it was Russet who said prove them wrong.Iv'e already done that in my small way by having 3 large Male dogs living together in perfect harmony , I was told by many it could never be done but it has.


Well I had elevn GSDs at one time all entire & these included three bitches & 8 dogs plus two BC's one male & one female & the BC male & two of the GSDs were active stud dogs so you are not on your own I know several Dane people who have more than three males + plus females together with no problems

When you approach the rescues you must tell them the dog will be totally on it's own without a handler at night, there are rescues out there that will let you have a guard dog  in several breeds, but I will not pass their names or details on to anyone as they sell their dogs just like the RSPCA do, a practice i totally disagree with

Okay , tried to be nice and pleasant.I wasnt trying to start a : my dads bigger than your Dad  ner ner ne ner na' thing Moonmaiden.Just that when I had 2 Male dogs and enquired off several Dane breeders about getting another Male they all said , no dont do it.They wont get on.I listened to their advice , thought carefully about it and decided that the risks they talked about were small compared to the benefits in my opinion.That is all I meant .Just because you have one set of opinions you should always keep an open mind about any new situation you have to work with.Although you being a dog trainer , I shouldnt have to tell you that.Behaviour is behaviour at the end of the day.

Please tell me what it is I have written that makes you think thatI would be anything other than completely
honest with any rescue centre I contacted , why would I not be?

If they felt unable to help I could always buy a puppy, no problem  !!!!!!.

(I really apologise for this tone I have taken , it is unlike me .I usually try to take people on their own merits and judge them as such , Just as any decent trainer or behaviourist worth there salt  should do.)

Well thats me told in no uncertain terms than I'm a useless dog trainer, even though I know you can have several males living in harmony with the right owner & have proved it by doing so(I am NOT a behaviourist & have never claimed to be) & I am rude to boot

As Mattie has already rehomed a labrador to a similar set up as yours why not approach Lab rescue for a guard dog ?

You still intend to break the law then on guard dogs & have a dog on your premises without a handler Not only is that inadvisable but lacks thought about the legal position you are putting yourself in & the rescue that provides you with your guard dog Yes you can buy a puppy there are lots of GSD breeders out there that would snap your hand off fior the money.

Can you explain what "you enquired off" means? it's teminology I'm not familar with.

Anyway I better get on & look for that new career as I am obviously a bad dog trainer(I train dogs NOT people by the way) Thanks for telling me how bad a DOG trainer I am without ever having seen any dogs I have trained

Just asked my friend who breeds danes & she prefers single sex homes for her puppies & has no problem letting people having several males together have a puppy on the rare occasion she has one available & she does rescue for GD too & has rehomed males to HH that already have males in them again with no problems

moon maiden you need to lighten up and read posts and realalise  we are all dog lovers on here no one wants to hurt a dog im sorry you feel threatened or your breed but i really think you should lighten up a bit and be kind

yes ive noticed there is a bit of rudeness going on here. maybe we should all just wish maddy well in her search to home a rescue dog and leave it at that rather than let it degenerate into a "slanging match"

moon im sure maddy can find a suitable dog if it be puppy or gsd I dont think you need to worry about that :) as you know the police take dogs on from the ages 1-2 years old so they can train im sure if these dogs can be trained then theres no reason to rule out a rescued dog infact ive passed the police over to rescues to find the kind of dogs they need. maddy could have this dog professionaly trained by someone like yourself or someone used to training these kinds of dogs :) 
Id like to know why you think a lab would be more suitable over a gsd? after all the dog will be in that same situaton .
there are plenty of pups about at the moment i know of a litter of pups that are in the pound as we speak 7 , 5 week old pups . 
maddy if you would like help in finding a suitable dog let me know ill be happy to help .

Well my local police force no longer take "gifted"dogs due to the very high failure rate in training & health They buy from other forces or from breeders who breed dogs from working lines. I wasn't aware the police were involved in training unaccompanied guard dogs I thought their training was all done as a handler & dog combination-learn something new everyday

Why a labrador-well Mattie has rehomed a dog to a similar situation & obviously has no problem with someone who knowingly breaks the guard dog & handler law & there are many more Labs in rescue than GSDs(our local lab rescue has twice as many kennels as our GSD rescue & many more dogs waiting to go in & be rehomed + more labs than any other breed are bred each year I believe)

Our rescue has NEVER gifted dogs to the police & I have never trained guard dogs for sole guard duties(this is against the law)or for a handler to take over so why would I want to train a rescue for sole illegal guarding duties ? We have enough problems retraining the rescue dogs for pet homes let alone illegal use

Yes think we'll leave it there.
If I did decide to go ahead Lovelylady I'll put a post on here to try and reach you.Thanks for all your help.

just give me a pm theres always thousands of gds's in rescues or pounds ill know of quite a few :) goodluck with your stables

yes good luck from us too :-)

>>>>>>>>>Why a labrador-well Mattie has rehomed a dog to a similar situation & obviously has no problem with someone who knowingly breaks the guard dog & handler law

just because we get a lot of labradors which we do which I why I gave up my home to start a sanctuary for them.doesnt mean I donnt care where they go.
The one dog I refered to in my posting was either going to live that life  and be well cared for or the alternative was bleak,so I take exception to your posting quoted above..
Whats happening to this site? people used to come on here in their hundreds and  there could be some disagreements I know but why do people have to get so personal? its wrong !

I now know why I dont bother posting here much and why some of the  others have left .
Its a shame you should consider that many people will have differing opnions and take the blinkers off.

have you been to the other site mattie its much better than this one, not as much prejudice or bickering? not sure if allowed to post link here so PM me if you want :-)

hey mattie please just ignore anyone being personal to you . thats how this site can be sometimes . i often have disagreements with people on here for this very reason .
Russet have i been talking to you on dp's about breeding ?
im going to pm you if you dont mind :)

yes thats me one and the same!

You sound a really nice caring person Maddyforyou and I hope you find a solution. I live in a bungalow with a large secure garden. I also own a long coated GSD, bought as a companion (from a pup), who does not like central heating, since I have had her my Gas bill has dropped considerably. She has the run of the bungalow day & night, she loves to lie outside and "star gaze" , she is not shut out and comes inside whatever time she wants to and sleeps wherever she pleases. If I go out in the day she either comes with me, or sleeps inside the bungalow in the coolest place. She swims every day and she dries alot quicker than my Cavaliers do. Alot of people do not like German Shepherd dogs for whatever reason, and my only concern in your case would be if one of those sort of people was to harm your dog in any way during the night.  Please let me know how you get on, thank you.

hi

what time will the dog be left from? 5pm when everyone goes home? til what time in the morning? i agree with the previous poster what if something happened during the night? how far away are these stables from your home? if you have all the right answers then it sounds a good deal for the dog better than being stuck in a kennel all day why not get two to keep each other company and as for guarding you won't get a better guard dog than a heinz 57 totally loyal and very protective you could always buy them one of those doggy coats if your worried about the cold although dogs adjust to living outside and two would keep each other warm and a home to two needy dogs would be excellent!

j

Two slights side points Moonmaiden:
1) "The Police & armed forces are moving from gifted dogs to using dogs from lines breed to be able to carry out the duties they require (they are also using breeds that are bred to guard too)"
Incorrect
I have met a handler and trainer from the Brit.Trans.Police Dog Training Establishment, Essex, whom my rescue centre gifted a GSD to.
I have also met the police dog trainers/handlers and breeding managers at Keston Police Dog Kennels, Kent.
I was an invited guest a their last passing out parade about 6 weeks ago.

The reason the police are now breeding more instead of taking in gifted dogs is simply because they dont get given enough dogs any more - this stems from the infamous cruelty case by the Essex Force.

2) "However you as a member of the general public are under the misaprehension that they are guard dogs because they are used by people incorrectly".

What do you mean by general member of the public?
Do you mean someone who does not work with dogs?
In which case that would surely preclude Russett, as she runs a boarding kennel (and myself for that matter, as I train, rehabilatate, assess, and rehome dogs full-time).
And presumably a good number of people on this forum who probably train or rescue or something?
I'm guessing you must be F/T 'dog worker too? - what field? Is it GSD work, such as breed rescue? Or security dog handler?

intrigued, Kiwi

Kiwi

I was not going to answer your post as you have dug up an old post

1. I know a lot of Police & armed forces dog section people(not just two in the same area-this is because when I had a couple of health tested GSD stud dog they were used by the police & other breeders of working dogs or had bought in puppies by my dogs) & they TELL me that they are going down the route of dogs bred to work fro health teated sources because of character & health issues are increasing amougst gifted dogs & that gifted dogs are failing during training on a much higher ratio that purpose bred dogs-as they are always under budget restrictions failures must be kept to a minimum. Breeding managers-plural for the met i thought Steve was in sole charge has this changed recently then ?

2.general member of the publicis a misquote from what I wrote-the General dog & non dog owning public who have never owned a GSD in general consider them a "Guard"dog born & bred-they are not the are a "Shepherd"dog  i.e. dog used by shepherds(orogonally)to work stock) The guarding breeds are by definition Mastiffs, Rotties & Dobermanns.

I am a dog trainer by professional & personal trainer if I choose to be I train DOGS(retrain a lot of the time to save the dogs life in lots of cases to correct lack of training & harsh handling by previous owners)I on very odd occasiona will train one to one to help friends & people who have rescue dogs with problems)

This of course added to over 40 years of close involvement with GSDs rescue & non rescue I believe gives me a little insight in to what circumstances are suitable for a rescue GSD to be placed into-although most respondants to this thread appear to disagree & that of course is their right

I will not be responding anymore to this thread

Hi, just like to point out that im a HE not a she, :-)  (OH is laughing again, this same misunderstanding happened on another dog board recently!)