Hi Everyone,

Been having more and more problems with Honey and small dogs: she keeps getting into "fights" with them - she goes up to them and starts with the paw thing and jumping on them, trying to play (or dominate, I don't know) and then they snarl at her and she snarls back and then things get ugly. It's all noise at the moment and no skin is ever broken (I've never seen her bite yet - it seems to be just snarling and pawing - like putting the smaller dog in place) but it's very upsetting and frightening, especially as being the bigger dog, Honey is always to blame and other owners look at me like I'm a murderer and she is a vicious beast.

Anyway, have been talking to her breeders and other Dane owners and also our trainers at Obedience class about this. They all feel that it is a dominance thing - that she is a very cocky, confident pup and so won't back down from other dogs, especially little ones. What she really needs is to be taken down a peg or two. The trainer (different one from last time - much better) has been showing us how to be more forceful (and effective!) with the choke chain - he says that at the moment, she is just ignoring the corrections because they are like mosquitoes - they barely bother her and so she isn't respecting us. So he has said that we have to start getting more tough on walks and correcting her when she misbehaves with other dogs (let her approach but the moment she starts with the rough play, correct her and tell her off). But generally, he says that we have show her we are boss as at the moment, she thinks she is - or she thinks she can get away with it.

Well, my question is - what other things can I do to assert dominance? I am already doing all the "recommended" things at home - like making her wait for her food until a release command, go through doorways after me, sit for all pats & attention...we have no problem with dominance at home - she is very submissive - but is there anything else we can do to really ram the point home? Everyone agrees that what she really needs is to be put in her place more, so she doesn't think she is the greatest thing since sliced bread and struts around acting like a bully. Her litter sister who has stayed with the breeders (until recently adopted by a young couple living near us) is much more polite around dogs because she has been living with 7 other Danes and was bottom of the pack and was constantly being put in her place by other dogs - but Honey hardly ever meets another dog big enough to put her in her place. Someone suggested that I find more big strong dogs to teach her some manners - is this a good idea?
(Interestingly, her sister - although polite around dogs - is dominant over Honey and really put her in her place when they were reunited for the first time last week. First time I saw another dog throw Honey to the ground and Honey whimpering! So her sister isn't a weakling - but she doesn't go up to strange dogs and try to wrestle them to the ground either!)

Also, the most important thing is the walk- our breeders say that that is where she is asserting her dominance. What things can we do to show her that we are the boss - aside from correcting her with the choke chain and not letting her walk in front? (she doesn't pull generally unless we see a dog).

I'd really appreciate any advice or suggestions anyone may have. Please let me stress again that she is not aggressive in any way - she is just over-confident and cocky! (She is now 8 months). Also - I know some of you have mentioned that maybe I shouldn't have a large powerful dog because of my small size and so I don't have as much physical control (Honey now outweighs me) - and I take your point but I am not willing to give up on Honey just yet and rehome her simply because I am small and not strong enough to control her when she acts up! I really want to try everything to assert my authority over her and I don't believe that I have to be bigger & heavier to do it. So any advice would be gratefully received!
Thanks - Hsin-Yi

I think you are going to have to be very careful with Honey.  The more you keep correcting her with that check chain the worse she is going to get and when you haven't got hold of the end of the lead you will have no control whatsoever.  When dogs interact with other dogs and we interfere or the dog is on a lead then we can cause immense problems.  You cannot teach Honey how to be a dog.  Because of her size it is always going to be difficult to socialise her.  Not so much because of the other dogs but because of the other dogs owners and their prejudices that you have already encountered.  The problem with trying to assert our authority over a dog is that we are often doomed to failure.  If you want your dog to respect and look up to you then you need to be a good and fair leader and not all this 'me boss - you dog' tosh.  As for other dogs be very very careful about 'correcting her when she misbehaves with other dogs'  or you will end up with a dog aggressive dog by the time she is a year old.  She needs the opportunity to meet and play with sociable dogs who aren't worried about her size who have owners that won't react and know the difference between playing, squabbling and fighting. She needs to be able to do this off lead and she needs to be able to do this on her own without you trying to tell her how to do it. http://www.dog-dominance.co.uk/

I have to say again what Sally has said makes perfect sense.

I am particularly concerned with all this 'correcting' you are having to do with the dog

First of all, if the dog needs so much 'correction' I would ask the question why?  Perhaps you could approach your training from a different angle, by showing her what is the desired behaviour instead of punishing her when she acts/reacts inappropriately.

By increasing the level of punishment when she is in the presence of other dogs all she is going to do is associate pain (and you have already indicated that this is what your trainers want you to inflict by mentioning that they think your 'corrections' are like mosquito bites) every time she sees another dog and therefore she will be even more determined to 'get rid of them'. 

All this talk about dominance is, I am afraid, a smokescreen for what is actually happening here.

A lead is merely a means of attaching a dog to you for safety reasons or for restraint; if you have to rely on it totally to control and punish your 'best friend' then I would question the the methods you are currently using; they are obviously not proving of benefit to either you or the dog................

Thanks Tohme and Sally for your responses. Please don't think that I spend all my time yanking Honey around and choking her and stuff. I have REALLy tried the "praising her for right behaviour" route but it seems to have no effect and it does seem as if the reason for this is because Honey doesn't care what say - doesn't respect me. I have been trying, so far, to let her go up to other dogs when we meet them on walks and letting her sniff them and while she is doing this, I praise in a happy voice "Good girl! Good girl, Honey. GOOD GENTLE...Good girl" to show her that this is the right way to behave. The problem is, this only lasts for 2 seconds and then she's jumping on the other dog's head and then of course, it snaps at her, she growls back and things turn nasty...so I don't understand: surely I ought to be correcting her when she starts to get rough? Otherwise, what do you suggest I do? I am already praising her for good behaviour but I can't just let her move from that onto bad behaviour without any correction?
Also, I totally agree that you can't/shouldn't win dogs over with the "me-boss" thing and I agree with the fair leader thing - and I am already trying to do everything recommended to achieve that (our routines with her at home, the "nothing in life is free" thing - she really has to earn EVERY attention she gets and I don't fuss over her all the time or get emotional/hysterical, etc, etc)...I am willing to try anything to achieve this "leadership" status but it seems like everyone keeps telling me what I shouldn't do without telling me what alternatives I SHOULD do and I'm really confused!! :(  For example, you said "All this talk about dominance is, I am afraid, a smokescreen for what is actually happening here." - but what IS happening here and what do you recommend I actually DO, not what I shouldn't do?? Sorry if I sound a bit thick but it would really help me to spell it out and please don't think I'm arguing with you but I'm just so frustrated as I keep getting people telling me that what I'm doing is very wrong - but never telling me what I ought to be doing ot make it right!

Also, it's obvious that Honey is a VERY cocky pup so the usual leadership routines aren't enough and I need to do something stronger to show her that I am the leader. Not that I'm saying this has to be done by a choke chain but if you have an alternative, then please tell me as I will do anything!!
Thanks again.
Hsin-Yi

Hiya.

I reckon the most effective method of 'correcting' her for growling/snapping at other dogs is to end the game and walk away.

What i think is happening is the other dogs, the smaller ones start a game with her, they then get a bit over faced and effectively say 'fk off'... well if YOU were playing with someone and then suddenly they told you that, i think you would retaliate, i certainly would! Thats what she is doing. I personally dont see retaliating to an offensive remark, such as a sudden growl, as being particularly 'bad' behaviour, she is just doing what comes naturally. You need to find big dogs who will kindly, but effectively teach her what is and isnt acceptable in play.

Are you 100% certain that this snapping/growling is a problem, and not just playing? My dogs make a range of horrendous noises in play, but thats all it is!

Like i said before, you have to stop giving her the chance to balls it up by retaliating, so stop letting her play with dogs that are likely to react in that way. If she continues being punished ineffectively for retaliating, you could very soon find she gets defensive and aggressive first, without waiting to see if the other dog is giong to play or be nasty. Thats tough to live with in any size dog, let alone a dane!

How much time do YOU spend playing with her, what games, training things do you do with her, away from other dogs?

Although you dont want her pestering you for attention or having no manners, you must remember to call her to you and reward her for being quiet and well behaved with a good game, and some fuss. She WILL respect you if you are the source of all her fun and games and treats, but if you are the person who always makes her work harder than is fair, or stops her fun, that respect will go.

I think, and i have thought this before, with regards to your relationship with your dog, that you might be expecting a little too much. Obviously good manners and a well behaved pet are what everyone strives for, but its unrealistic, and a little unfair to expect a dog the size of Honey to be physically and mentally capable of playing respectfully and nicely with EVERY dog she meets, no matter what their reaction is, at her age. I think its a pretty tough call for any dog, but especially a young, large dog, who has no idea of her size.

Em

Hi Em,

Thanks so much for your post and suggestions - it's really kind of you to take the time to go over things for me in such detail. Your advice makes a lot of sense and seems like a good way of making her see the consequences of her rough play, without actually any "pain" involved.

"Are you 100% certain that this snapping/growling is a problem, and not just playing? My dogs make a range of horrendous noises in play, but thats all it is!"

- actually, I'm rethinking that! When those incidents happened with the small dogs (particularly the one in Obedience class), I was standing right by them and couldn't really see what was going on and all I could see was the smaller dog wriggling and squealing under Honey and her making these horrible snarly noises and pawing it/jumping on it. It looked so violent and sounded so scary and of course, you can't see if she is actually hurting the smaller dog or not. But this past Mon, a similar thing occured in class again but this time, my husband was doing the class and so I was far enough away to observe and able to see their silhouettes and what was happening more clearly - and I noticed that although she was mouthing around the other dog and pawing and making snarling noises, she wasn't attempting to bite in any way and it didn't actually look as vicious or scary as when you were standing next to her - maybe because I could see what was happening and it was obvious the smaller dog wasn't being hurt, just frightened. I think you are right and she might be just playfully putting the other dog in its place - or even, just playing but the other dog gets the wrong idea and start screaming for its life.
Also - interestingly - we took her to an off-leash park yesterday and after a lot of debating, I finally let her off lead for some free play and interaction with other dogs. They were all big dogs like boxers and I'd spoken to all the owners who were very relaxed and urging me to let her off. Anyway, I was very interested to see that she did the same snarling/pawing thing with some of the dogs there and they did it back to her. When I got very anxious and wanted to intervene, the other owners assured me that it was just play and not a fight after all! So - as you said - there are obviously some dogs who don't mind all that snarling stuff.

"How much time do YOU spend playing with her, what games, training things do you do with her, away from other dogs"

I usually play with her when I come home, for about 10-15mins (with her toys: fetch and tug and skipping around, acting silly, which she loves) and also call her over for a cuddle and a tummy rub. Then I usually take her for her walk and during the walk, I try to incorporate the training we do in class, like the Sit-Stays and Downs, etc...sometimes, if I have extra time, I will also do another 5-10mins of extra training at home, either before the walk or after (I train using treats and also a game with her favourite toy as a reward, plus praise of course). I have also tried taking her favourite toy out on walks with us and playing with her from time to time.

"I think... that you might be expecting a little too much....a little unfair to expect a dog the size of Honey to be physically and mentally capable of playing respectfully and nicely with EVERY dog she meets"
No, no! I don't expect her to be nice to EVERY dog she meets but I do think it's fair enough to expect her to be nice to SOME. The reason I'm posting is because she doesn't seem capable of playing nicely or respectfully with ANY dog she meets - she really tries that jumping on head behaviour with every dog she encounters, big or small. The big ones take it better, that's all. If it was just a few dogs, I wouldn't mind but when it's every dog, then I start to worry!
But I totally agree with you and think that I expect too much from her. I guess I feel like I have put so much time and training and socialisation into her, she shouldn't be having a problem interacting with other dogs! But I will try to remember your comment and lower my expectations! :)

Thanks again very much,
Hsin-Yi

i have the same thing happen with my leo.the small dogs are scared of him so they grumble at him.he is so excited and only wants to say hello and play,he doesn't get the message.i think it depends on the dogs size they come across.she is still young at 8 months he is now 16 but still acts the same.he is different with dogs his own size he shows them more respect and will back away more if told.i am in the same situtation as you he is over 3 stone heavier than me and would pull me to a dog ,just because he couldn't not say hello but i walked the other way.he has just about learnt that if he pulls me that he doesn't go.if he goes to others he goes by my side (in a calmer manner) so you can see how the dogs are before play mode starts.even though it looks rough and like they are getting beat up like others have said giant breeds are huge dogs that don't know their own size or strength.
we have had dogs freeze with toby near them,but like honey he hasn't grumbled 1st.he gets so carried away that a dog could take a chunk of him and he wouldn't know or care.
you also have to remember they may be big but are still pups.i hope he calms down as he mature's and learns manners better.
maybe giant owners should get together and let them all free so they are all equal and just play like dogs do just make sure we are well clear......:-)

Hi Marie,

Thanks for your post which assured me that I'm not alone! I think you're right - it would be great if giant breed owners could get together and so their dogs woudl have others of similar size and strength to play with.

The only thing is I can't accept that just because I have a giant breed dog, it means I have to always avoid small dogs. Danes are supposed to be "gentle giants"  and Honey's sister has shown that it IS possible to be big and playful and play rough with big dogs but also interact gently with small dogs. If she can do it, then surely it's possible to teach Honey to behave the same way? That's way I'm more keen to focus my energies on finding some way to train Honey to behave better around small dogs, rather than avoid them altother.

Good luck with yours!
Hsin-Yi

Hiya.

Hope you werent offended by anything i said....... it is very easy to forget just how long it takes dogs to mature, thats any dog, let alone a giant breed..... my 19 month old lurcher is only just starting to grow up a bit, my four year old staffie x has just about settled down in the last 6 months!

It will just take time and patience, all my dogs play in the way you have described honey playing, horrible noises, dogs come back with faces wet with saliva, but they always go back for more!!!!

With more exposure and time with older dogs, she will learn the polite way to instigate play, as you are correct, bouncing on other dogs heads is a bit rude!

I do wonder if perhaps your time spent with her is maybe crammed into too short a space of time, if that is the case, try breaking it up into smaller sessions with a longer break in between. If she is wanting to be doing something in the 'in between' times, you could give her a kong to chew or other interactive toys.

Mainly, i think you just need to relax a bit more, you are trying so hard to do everything right, because she is a big dog, and obviously needs to have manners and be under control. Calm down, BREATHE!!!! and take your time, she will take a while to mature, but she will get there in the end! Just chill out a bit more, and enjoy her, apart from anything else, you do sound as if sometimes this isnt much fun for you, and if dog owning as about anything, its about enjoying it!

In any case, Honey will pick up on your tenseness, which wont help her learn. Go relax, let her play with bigger dogs, older dogs, (obviously with their owners permission), and mostly ENJOY your dog! She wont be a puppy forever!

Em

Because of her size it isn't going to be easy with her meeting other dogs.  Like I said before - the dogs won't have a problem but the owners will.  I have had Danes and chihuahuas mixing freely here.  I personally don't let my dogs meet strange dogs when either or both are on a lead and attached to a person. 

<<<when we meet them on walks and letting her sniff them and while she is doing this, I praise in a happy voice "Good girl! Good girl, Honey. GOOD GENTLE...Good girl" to show her that this is the right way to behave. The problem is, this only lasts for 2 seconds and then she's jumping on the other dog's head and then of course, it snaps at her, she growls back and things turn nasty...so I don't understand: surely I ought to be correcting her when she starts to get rough? Otherwise, what do you suggest I do? I am already praising her for good behaviour but I can't just let her move from that onto bad behaviour without any correction?>>>

You cannot tell her how to do this.  She is a dog - you are not.  The only way Honey will learn how to have a civilised conversation and play appropriately with other dogs is to have conversations and play with dogs who will teach her.  Keep her away from the ones that don't like her and find some that are willing to interact with her and let them play and chat and just enjoy watching them but do not interfere.  She doesn't need to be told she is a good girl when she is talking to another dog and she definately doesn't need to be 'corrected' either other than by a wiser dog.

<<Honey doesn't care what say - doesn't respect me.>> 
Respect is earned not taught. ;)

<<I am willing to try anything to achieve this "leadership" status>> 

I live with several dogs.  There are four on the sofa at the moment.  They eat before me usually.  They don't go through doors until I say they can but that is still often in front of me.  Trying to think what else I'm doing wrong?  Oh yes they sleep on the bed.  Not all of them though. :D  I reckon my dogs are fairly well behaved and we have a good relationship, whether they see me as their leader, their Mum or their freind, who can say?  I train them using rewards - food, treats, toys, games and apart from walking on lead all training is done off lead so corrections do not figure in my training.  I don't expect them to understand something unless I have taught it to them or unless it comes naturally to them. 

I'm not sure what to suggest you do other than to ditch your trainer and find one that uses kind, motivational methods.  You won't find it easy to change overnight but you will certainly find the training much easier and heaps more fun if you can find some 'hands on' help with 'hands off' training. :D

Hi Sally,

Thanks again for your reply, which made a lot of sense. As I said to Em and Tohme, I'm sorry but sometimes I need to have things spelled out for me - you said, "Respect is earned, not taught" - so how would you recommend earning it? I feel that people are constantly telling me what I'm doing wrong or giving a generalisation like that - which I understand and totally agree with - but then not giving any specifics or any alternatives to what I should not be doing... so I don't know what to do anyway! Could you please be more specific about how I would earn her respect?

I DO train using rewards - either food or a game with her favourite toy - and lots of praise when she does somethign right and like you, all the training (come, stay, etc) is done without the lead so there are no lead corrections, except walking on the leash - when she pulls or gets too far ahead, I give her a quick jerk on the choke chain and walk the other way. Or if she is lunging at another dog or acting up, I give a quick flick/jerk on the choke chain and tell her sharply, "Leave!". I don't see how it can be wrong to give a correction in that sense sometimes. I certainly don't want you to think that I just train her by yanking her around and strangling her all the time! I know people always say only praise good behaviour and ignore bad (and I do that) but sometimes, I feel that you HAVE to acknowledge their bad behaviour and tell them off for it, so they know they're doing wrong. Especially with a personality like Honey's - we've been praising her good behaviour until we're blue in the face but she is so bolshy that unless you really tell her off for bad behaviour as well, she doesn't respect that and continues doing it anyway.
And as for the trainer - I don't really feel that he is unkind. The classes constantly encourage that we reward with treats and praise and motivate the dog - the only thing he said was that we're not firm enough with Honey and so she is getting away with murder and not respecting us. If you tell her to do something and she ignores you - and you let her ignore you - then she'll think that's OK. Or she just uses her brute strength to drag you over to another dog. And I have to say, watching him work with her in class - you can't help feeling that he is doing something right because she responds like magic and looks up to him, tail wagging, watching him, waiting for him - really focused on him. It's not like he is just inflicting pain and making her cower - when she walks with him, if she tries to lunge at a passing dog or jump around or pull, he just gives a very strong, quick flick of the chain and then walks rapidly away in another direction - if she ignores him and continues lunging, etc, he gives another strong flick - enough to get her attention on him and pause and think - and then he walks away and praises her when she follows and walks by his side. He only had to do this twice and she was following him around like his shadow, watching him avidly, her tail wagging, her head up and alert - she looked really happy but also really respectful. Whereas when we're doing it, she never looks at us - just looks at other dogs, jumps at them, tries everything - lunging, twisting, pulling - to get over to the other dog, regardless of what we're saying (yelling!) to her. And I HAVE tried to make myself more interesting - as a lot of people have advised - I have taken treats on walks and tried to get her attention on me with the treat when there's another dog, I've also tried taking her favourite toy and starting a game when we pass another dog, so  her attention is on me - but it's really like we're not important when there's another dog there. But with the trainer, it's like although she still wants to play with the other dog, she recognises his authority and respects him enough so that she exerts a bit of self-control. It's like he's convinced her - by not letting her get away with acting up (and this means "correcting" with a strong flick of the choke chain) - he's shown her that she has to respect him and listen to him. Whereas I feel like I'm always begging her to pay attention to me - and she knows it.

Anyway, I don't mean to be argumentative - just wanted to make sure you saw things properly. Thank you again for all your help.
Hsin-Yi

This might sound stupid, but does she actually know what 'leave' (or for that matter any other command, when coupled with a correction) means?

If you havent actually shown her what it means, then just shouting it, and backing it up with a correction wont work.  All it will eventually mean is 'leave = jerk in the neck' and it doesnt take long to work out that if the lead isnt on, then no correction will come.

The way i train, means i reward when something right happens, and i withhold reward when it doesnt. That might sound like you just ignore bad behaviour, but its not as simple as that. It WONT work unless you prevent the bad behaviour happening.

I still think you are expecting a hell of a lot from an 8 month old dog. Its very very easy to fall into the trap, especially when they are so big, of thinking that they have grown up, when really they havent at all.

Honeys trainer doesnt see her day in day out, she doesnt know what to expect from him, whereas she does from you, so the things she has learned to do with you, she wont have learned to do with him.

If she is too far ahead of you when you are walking, tahts because YOU let her get that far ahead. Instead of giving her a jerk with the chain, just stop, turn around the second she pulls, or gets ahead of you. By giving her a jerk, you are warning her, so she needs pay no attention to you until she gets that jerk, only THEN does she need to notice you, because you are about to do something different.

If you start stopping dead/about turn every time she is a step ahead, or putting a little pressure on the lead, and sometimes when she ISNT, she will learn to pay attention to you ALL the time, and not just when she thinks she must.

As far as walking to heel, youve got it easy compared to people with smaller dogs.
Put the lead on a belt around your waist (its actually HARDER to pull you over then!), have food in one hand, clicker in the other.
The reason i say its easier is, her nose is going to be that much nearer your hand, whereas with my dogs, i have to bend down to avoid them jumping up for the treat.
Walk along, very briskly, keeping her attention with your voice and the treat in your hand, and, presuming she knows what the clicker means, click and treat every few steps.
Work in lots of turns, stops etc, and gradually reduce the rate of click/treat.

Do this OFF the lead as well, making sure when she knows to stay by your side, you introduce a 'heel' command, and also a release command, so she knows when she can go and play, and when she HAS to be paying attention to you.

I would certainly stop correcting her when she lunges/barks on lead at other dogs. That is a fast route to a lead aggressive dog, because she will associate the correction/unpleasantness with the other dogs presence, NOT her behaviour.

If you can, set up situations on a walk where other dogs will be near by. When she starts creating about the other dog being there, about turn and walk away. IGNORE her reaction, and reward her when she stops, by treating,a dn turning around an going back again.

I would also recommend you walk her in a flat collar, and a halti. (or whatever head collar suits her best), have a double lead, one end attatched to the halti, the other to the flat collar, for safety. She wont then beable to drag you to the other dog!

I hope this makes sense, ive been in the pub all night!

Em

Hi again Em and thank you so much again for going into so much detail for me. I will definitely try what you suggested on walks and make sure that I keep her on her toes as regards to where I'm going all the time.

She does actually know what "Leave" means as I use this at home when she is off-leash too. For example, she loves socks and if I leave a pair on the sofa, she'll go up and try to grab them but if I say sharply, "Leave!", she'll stop and back off - and then I praise her in a soft, happy voice and often give her a treat as well (in the beginning, when she was first learning it, I treated her every time). I also use this command on walks when we pass a rubbish bag, for instance, and she wants to sniff it and I tell her sharply to leave and then praise her when she stops approaching it but follows me instead. So I do think she knows what it means. It's just that with another dog, just giving her the command is not enough because she's just ignores me - which is why I use the flick as well to emphasise the command. But I take your point about not wanting her to associate other dogs with discomfort so I will try what you suggested and walk away instead.
Just a question about that - sorry, hope you don't mind explaining in more detail - but you said, I should about turn and walk away if she starts acting up when she sees another dog and ignore her behaviour and reward her when she is calm again...well, I have tried this and what happens is that when I about turn and walk away, she still stands there and because she doesn't follow me, the lead becomes taut and if I want to keep going, I have to pull which means she pulls in the opposite direction - we end up in a pulling contest. It's why I use the flick of the choke chain as it seems to "break the spell" and get her attention enough so that she doesn't pull against me but follows me instead. But I'm willing to try something else you recommend.

"I still think you are expecting a hell of a lot from an 8 month old dog. Its very very easy to fall into the trap, especially when they are so big, of thinking that they have grown up, when really they havent at all."
- I know, I agree with you - the only thing is, I keep seeing her litter sister who is the SAME AGE and who can behave well and that's why I expect Honey to be able to do the same! :( Her sister is the same size and age and can play very roughly with her but is also able to go up to small dogs and not intimidate them and interact very gently. That's why I feel that I should be able to expect the same from Honey and want to know how to teach her to be like her sister!!
The only difference between them is that her sister, until 3 weeks ago when she was adopted as a pet, was living with the breeders and 7 other Danes and was going to dog shows regularly so she has had a lot of interaction with other dogs (but so have we at puppy parties and Obedience classes!)...is this different upbringing enough to make such a difference in their behaviour?? I have to admit - when they're together, Honey seems like a puppy whereas her sister seems like an old woman. Her sister just plods around and sniffs things and is gentle and slow whereas Honey bounces around like Tigger and is constantly trying to jump on her sister and mouth her. Occasionally, her sister will respond and they will wrestle, etc, but generally, her sister seems to be less interested in playing whereas Honey acts like someone on drugs. And yet they're the same age?!
Anyway, thanks very much again, Em, for being so patient with me.
Hsin-Yi

Hiya, no probs!

I can see how its tempting to think, because her sister can do stuff, so can she, but it just doesnt work like that.

Id put money on it, that not ALL her litter mates are the same as her sister, some will chill out faster, some not so fast.

I do get the impression that you are trying SO hard, and possibly too hard.

The other thing you could try with the lunging at other dogs thing, is just to stand and ignore her. Dont get any nearer, just be a 'rock'..... until she stops pratting about.

I used that method with Rocky, he went through a stage of SCREAMING at other dogs, to go and say hello/jump on heads...... i know how hard it is to walk away with a dog trying desperately to go in the other direction (and rocks is only a littlun!)...

You could try going somewhere where there will be a lot of other dogs.... stay far enough away that she can see them, but doesnt react, and reward her for not reacting. Gradually, over a period of weeks even, move nearer and nearer, rewarding for no reaction.

You need to look at the things she does that you dislike, and find what there is in each behaviour taht is rewarding her.... then remove that reward. Sometimes you can do this by preventing the situation from occuring, (ie smaller dogs), sometimes by reacting in a different way (refusing to move till she stops pulling etc).

Dogs ONLY do what is rewarding, and learn damn fast if something brings a reward. Equally they dont tend to repeat an action that ISNT rewarding... the problem is, that if something is put on a variable scale of reward (for instance, begging at the table)... in the same way that a gambler becomes addicted to a fruit machine, the dog tries harder at the behaviour that is occasionally rewarding.
This means once you STOP the reward coming you have to be completely consistant, because one slip, one reward, will have her trying even harder to 'win'.

No matter how Honeys sister is, i think Honey just isnt mature enough to cope with a lot of stuff, particularly being expected to know how to play  well with all breeds and sizes of dog. It WILL come with time, for now you just have to manage her behaviour and prevent her from learning bad things, like 'all small dogswill bite me' or 'pulling gets me there quicker'.

For what its worth, i very much doubt that on this board, there are many people whose dogs are 100% perfect in everyway. Most of us have dogs that are great 'but'...

In my case: Rocky is a wonderful dog, BUT he can be funny with male dogs off lead.
                Dill is a star, BUT he steals anything and everything he can find.
                Abby is a very lovable orange hound, BUT she thinks playing with other dogs means chasing and biting bottoms HARD.

All three of my dogs are great to live with, and with the exception of rockys occasional dislike (which is getting better) of male dogs, dont cause me any major problems in day to day life. Ok, i DO have to remember to put the butter away, i cant walk Dilly and Abby together because she bites his arse and he will run home (cos its rubbish playing with someone who bites your butt!), but in the long run, its no big deal.

Its all part of their character, and if i wanted a dog that was perfect in everyway, didnt th ink for itself or have its little quirks, id have got a robot one, or a stuffed toy!

Em

"I have had Danes and chihuahuas mixing freely here. "

Just wanted to add that - that is exactly what upsets me because I know it is possible and nothing to do with their size. Danes are supposed to be gentle giants! And I have SEEN with my own eyes, Honey's litter sister interacting really gently and nicely with tiny dogs - which is why I don't accept that just because Honey is a big boisterous puppy, I have to accept that she can never play with small dogs! If her sister can do it, surely that must mean I can teach her to be gentle too? I just wish somebody could tell me how to teach her that! (well, everyone does but everyone contradicts each other... :()

Yes, yes, I know - I can't teach her - only other dogs can. Except it seems that dogs fall into 2 camps: either they play as roughly as her - which doesn't seem to teach her anything (this is mainly big dogs) or they are intimidated by her and attack her (small dogs) - which probably teaches her worse things...so I don't see how other dogs can be teaching her?!

Hi there

From your descriptions Honey never appears to fight - the other dogs react to her first, (could be due to intimidation of her size, or because Honey has no idea how to be sociable in a gentle way yet) and she simply defends herself. She is probably over excited but may genuinely have no idea of the correct way to behave. If a dog lives with other dogs it practises canine communication and all the subtleties,  but Honey can' t do this.

Also although it is good to be in control, make sure you use a "nothing in life is free" or "learn to earn" method rather than rank reduction, as the latter can sometimes cause the owner/dog bond to lessen.  (See www.dog-dominance.co.uk.  for some basic info.)  You may then, with some training, be able to control Honey in the park, but the method will not actually stop her from being boisterous with other dogs as it isn't related.

A few things strike me from your post - you say Honey goes up to other dogs; can you stop her from doing this? and only allow her to greet dogs when you want her to? You say she is very submissive in the house and that her sister was domininant over her; a truly dominant dog would be behaving very differently. She is adolescent and may push her luck with other dogs which is normal, but to be honest it doesnt sound as if she is even doing that.

I can't remember where you walk, is it a dog park? :)

I would train Honey to be responsive to me on walks as then you have the control. Teach her commands such as Stop and Wait and OK say Hallo rather than reluing on strength ;).There is obviously a knack to doing this, i use reward based techniqes which work beautifully with some patience and consistency. I reckon Honey may get on well with clicker training as you can then reward her for doing the right thing instead of telling her off all the time, and she may start to under stand what you want. I'm a bit concerned about the choke chain advice - you say the trainer has shown you how to be more forceful; be careful as strong use of the choke chain can damage the neck.

I would suggest getting hold of "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson which will help you to feel more at ease with Honey, also if you can get it "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell. "Why Does My Dog" by John Fisher is also good, although he did a U turn on his ideas of dominance so do bear that in mind :)

Sorry probably not much help  but it is difficult to really say much without seeing what is happening with one's own eyes.

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay,

Thank you very much for your reply and your thoughtful suggestions. I think you are right - I am rethinking whether Honey is actually fighting or whether it is just a form of aggressive play/putting the other dog in its place. I was able to observe from afar the other day when she had another run-in with a small dog (my husband was holding her) and I saw more clearly than I would standing above them (when all you can see is the smaller dog wriggling and squealing under Honey who has her head down and horrible snarling noises coming from her) - and I noticed that although she was mouthing and pawing the small dog and making horrible noises, there was no contact at all - she wasn't trying to bite or anything. And also, she did the same with a boxer we met in the park later - except this time, he did the same thing back and seemed very happy and kept coming back for more - so I guess it is just a form of play - but the small dogs just don't take to it very well. Having said that, it is still inappropriate behaviour. And after having seen her litter sister who is able to be playful with her and play rough - and yet still be gentle with small dogs, I feel that I can't just accept that it is play behaviour from Honey and let her keep on doing it. There must be a way to make her more like her sister - able to interact with dogs, especially small ones, in an appropriate way - as well as play rough with other dogs when they like it.

"although it is good to be in control, make sure you use a "nothing in life is free"
Yes - I do try to do that, rather than just force myself down her throat as lord and master. Ever since she was a small puppy, she's had to earn everything - attention, toy,treat, game - even her dinner ("sit" and "wait" for the release command before she can eat) - I did this because I was really keen not to have dominant dog of her size. Which is why I say she is "submissive" at home as she doesn't challenge me in any way and does all the things required of her (eg, sitting nicely in front of you when she wants attention, rather than jumping up or pawing you). She always waits politely in doorways until you tell her to come through (not that I think that is a be-all and end-all but it's just an example). I think it's another reason why I'm so upset as I feel like I have followed all the recommended steps for the NILIF style of raising puppies and yet she still seems to have a problem respecting me!

"A few things strike me from your post - you say Honey goes up to other dogs; can you stop her from doing this?"
- I don't let her go up to every dog and yes, I do try to stop her but that's partly the problem as the minute we see a dog, she gets very "alert" and completely deaf to me. It's like I don't exist anymore. And if we don't move on quickly, she'll pull and lunge to go over and say hello. I have been working on her pulling with the Halti and also using the choke chain and she is better now and will walk over relatively calmly beside me if I allow her to go up to say hello. Then she'll sniff - and then in 2 seconds, she's jumping on their head. If I don't allow her to go up and say hello, then she is worse and she'll try to lunge and twist and pull to get over to the other dog. Usually, I try to get her attention on me and walk on quickly, if we're not going to say hello. The thing is - sometimes, walking down a narrow path with a dog coming the other way, it is impossible to avoid saying hello and there is that terrible 10meters when she has spotted the other dog and we're approaching each other and she has a real problem staying at a calm walk beside me then - she starts getting faster and faster and further ahead, until she is pulling - to get over to the other dog quicker.

"I can't remember where you walk, is it a dog park?"
- We walk in a variety of places: 1) around the area around my house (residential streets, on the sidewalk, waiting at traffic lights, etc - we often meet other dogs in the neighbourhood this way) 2) in a local park nearby which is a designated off-leash area - where I have occasionally let her off for a free run and free interaction with other dogs (if there are big friendly ones there) and 3) also, in some other local parks where it is not allowed for dogs to be off-leash and there she is either on her normal leash or sometimes on an extending leash.

"I would train Honey to be responsive to me on walks as then you have the control. Teach her commands such as Stop and Wait and OK say Hallo rather than reluing on strength"
- I really have tried! :) I have done all the recommended things like trying to keep her focused on me with treats and toys and games, especially when we're passing another dog. She also understands "Wait" - and like all things, her response to all these things is perfect until another dog appears on the scene. Then - suddenly - even her favourite toy waved in her face with me jumping around excitedly makes no impact. I just cease to exist when another dog appears. And normally, she is VERY toy-orientated and will do anything for a game of tug.
And please don't think I just train by punishing her. I'm a big fan of the reward-based technique and I have tried to only reward good behaviour and ignore bad but I think with some personalities, that may not be enough. Like a teenager who sets fire to a building - surely, you have to acknowledge that and tell them they've done wrong, not just ignore it and just give them a gift next time they do well in a test, hoping that that will prevent any further arsonistic behaviour?

Anyway, thank you again and thank you also for the book recommendations. Others have mentioned the same titles and I will certainly try to get my hands on them as soon as possible.
Hsin-Yi

Hallo again :)

From what you say, first of all you seem to have done very well with Honey, she is a big young strong dog and you have her behaving well in the house - so remember that and have confidence in your own abilities!!! ;)

Reward based training does mean positive, but it doesnt mean permissive. For example, if you want to walk on and Honey wants to play with an oncoming dog, your aim has to be to get her to do what you want. If you let her *take* you over to the other dog, then that is permissive and letting her control you. The way to change this behaviour is usually to start very "easy" and gradually make it more difficult over a period of months rather than weeks or days.

As an example, choose the best  command to suit the situatoin - w0uld it be a a Sit, a Watch Me, a Close...and so on. Teach this chosen command to high standards in the home and garden, next choose a quiet area with no dogs and get the same results, next choose an area where dogs are in the distance and get the same results, next choose an area where dogs are a bit closer and get the same results, and so on until you can be close to other dogs and Honey will do as uou ask.You will also have much better control over her generally as you have actually taught her a behaviour in a certain situatoin. If she is good, you can certainly give a release word (ie permission!) to say hallo, but she must not do this unless you give her the permission.

Release words can make a difference to the dog understanding that you are in control. I use "OK!" said happily, some people say "Free!" and so on.

As she is so strong, you could consider using a sharp word such as "ah ah!" said in the tone you would use if she was about to tip over a hot coffee mug onto herself. It's not meant to be punishment, but more information. YOu could use this if she starts to pull you to another dog without permission if you feel she would respond. AS soon as she turns to obey, or look at you, tell her "Good Honey" excitedly and get her to go with you and reward her.

If possible though don't even give her a chance to practice her behaviour of pulling you to other dogs, as the more she practices it, the more she will learn that she can do what she wants. I do think you have to be firm with her but you can still be fair and show her what you do want and reward her for that; if done as above and not rushed you should see at least some improvement. For a short while she may get worse but this is normal reaction to you taking more control.

Obviously this is only a suggestion as i can't see you and Honey; it won't solve how she plays with small dogs, as Sally suggests you need the help really of other understanding owners and their dogs, to do that, but it should help with her pulling you.

Lindsay
X

Has this behaviour started since she was attacked by the Westie?  Or was she doing it before then?
And did you have any success with the 'settle' command as advised by members of this board when she was having problems in puppy parties?

Hsinyi,

"Been having more and more problems with Honey and small dogs: she keeps getting into "fights" with them - she goes up to them and starts with the paw thing and jumping on them, trying to play (or dominate, I don't know) and then they snarl at her and she snarls back and then things get ugly. It's all noise at the moment and no skin is ever broken (I've never seen her bite yet - it seems to be just snarling and pawing - like putting the smaller dog in place) but it's very upsetting and frightening, especially as being the bigger dog, Honey is always to blame and other owners look at me like I'm a murderer and she is a vicious beast."

This is not dominance.  This is not a problem with Honey.   Honey wants to play.  She's big.  Smaller dogs are scared, so they snarl.  Honey snarls back.   If she wanted to hurt them, she could, easily.   Hsinyi, the only advice you need here is to keep Honey away from small dogs, unless you know they get along.   That's it.  When Honey is older and less inclined to play this will be much less of a problem.

Stacey

As a dane owner I can say that advice is absolutely spot on Stacey - I agree 100%. Just keep her away.

Hi digger,
She has always been like this - from when she came to us at 8 weeks. At the puppy parties, she was always the big, rough, over-hyped puppy jumping on the others and the others were often running away and hiding from her. We were initially told to not interfere and let other puppies teach her to be gentle, otherwise they won't play but what we found was that they either ran and hid from her or they put up with her behaviour and played as rough as her, which didn't seem to teach her anything. Then, later, as she grew much faster than other puppies, she got so big that everyone got worried about her hurting the others and we spent a lot of the time holding her back or down, which just seemed to make her more frustrated and hyper.
She did know the "Down" command from a very early age and would go down if we told her to, to calm down a bit - but she kept popping back up - it was a struggle keeping her down and calm when there were other puppies around. And the minute we released her, she was back in the fray, jumping on other puppies and mouthing aggressively. (Funny thing -for such an aggressive mouther of other dogs, she does't mouth us at all! We have never had any of the usual mouthing/chewing problems that people usually have with puppies).

I wonder now if we should have intervened more at the puppy parties so she that didn't learn that it was OK to play so rough all the time?

Hi Hisyni,  you've had plenty of good advice from others on how to handle your current situation, so keep up the good work.  I would agree though, that it's very possible that the things she was allowed to get away with in her puppy class have lead to your current problems - which is why it's so important that 'puppy play' isn't just a free for all, and it's as important to teach the boisterous puppy that being over the top means an end to the play session, as it is to teach a shy pup that it can be fun to play with other dogs. 

I may be over simplifying things, but...

Does Honey get the right kind of exercise for a Great Dane? 

I only have my first dog (pointer).  I know when I struggled most with her training it was because I was not giving her enough and the right type of excersize.  I don't know what the Great Dane requires.  But, I saw a big turn around in her response to my as a trainer when I figured out my 30 minute lead walks were not going to cut it for a Pointer.

I think an 8 month old great dane should be fairly restricted by the amount of exercise she can have, as she is a giant breed and such rapid growth and lots of exercise puts too much strain on the growth plates. (Or something like that). So i doubt it can be changed yet.
I must say it sounds just like she wants to behave like a dog, but the other dogs are scared. My dog is a medium size but she would be scared of a dane (or any other large dog). SHe would then have a go (out of fear) and some dogs may retaliate in order to protect themselves. I think problems like this arise from dog owners not understanding how dogs can be. My BC is scared of other dogs getting too close and sometimes will snap as a warning to go away, or tell them to leave her ball alone e.t.c. I get some very dirty looks from other dog owners , but no matter what i do i can only control her to a certain extent. I can try to prevent other dogs going up to her, but if they try to push there luck she will react. This is the nature of dogs. We can only try to curb some of their natural instincts.
I think the only thing you can do here is only let honey approach the dogs if the other dog is confident around bigger dogs.

Definately agree with whats been said so far.

I cant say it strongly enough (well not without being banned, lol) but get the HELL away from this trainer with the choke chains and the 'correction' crap.

the ONLY thing you are teaching her by correcting when she trys to play, is that other dogs mean nasty pain in neck. This IS enough to turn a bouncy playful dog into a defensive dog aggressive wreck! And then you REALLY have problems!

Do NOT give her the chance to play with dogs that wont take kindly to her games, only let her play with other confident bouncy dogs.

Really the ONLY 'people' who can effectively teach her to play nicely is other dogs. You are NOT a dog, so its giong to be very difficult to teach her whats appropriate.

So, prevent it, in the first instance.
Make YOU more fun than other dogs, so make sure there are treats/games that are LOADS of fun, and ONLY happen on walks.....
If at all possible, if she goes to play with other dogs that you dont think will appreciate it, (and you ahve her tuned into a great game with you) RUN the other way, squeaking the ball, whatever.
Does help for this last one if the recall is excellent.

Id suggest more training sessions, more stimulation OTHER than walks.
She is not going to find the 'me boss, you dog' type training fun at all, so trying to stimulate her mind and get the bond between you stronger doing that is NOT going to work. You need FUN training, clicker training, silly games, find the treat, shut the door, etc etc, stuff that teaches her that you are fun, that doing as she is told is rewarding and fun, and that will switch her on to paying attention to you, without the need for a yank in the neck!.

HTH

Em

Absolutely correct on the restricted exercise. This can indeed cause problems in itself, but its very important not to over-exercise a growing dane. Ten mins off lead is enough at 8 months, once a day.

Hi Darling - that's a good point about exercise as I agree that a tired puppy is a good puppy! But I don't think we can give Honey anymore than she is currently having - her usual walk is about 30mins, occasionally we go for 40-45mins and she seems quite tired by the end of that. She turned 9 months last week and I think 45mins is probably the max we should do at this age, due to giant breeds - rapid growth - bones, etc, etc...

Danes in general are not supposed to be dogs that require huge amounts of exercise. A lot of adults we know only get about 20mins a day and they are big couch potatoes. We love walking so would be giving Honey more - probably 40mins to 1 hr when she is fully grown.
Hsin-Yi

I also agree with everything said...there are some real gems of wisdom. I would say though that I think it's important to let Honey say "hello" to dogs of all sizes, ages, types.

<<I have been trying, so far, to let her go up to other dogs when we meet them on walks and letting her sniff them...The problem is, this only lasts for 2 seconds and then she's jumping on the other dog's head and then of course, it snaps at her, she growls back and things turn nasty>>

Maybe try to teach her the friendlier way to greet while she's on leash. You'll need to watch her reaction (and the reaction of the other dog). If her body language is calm and Honey is on leash, then let the dogs sniff each other but walk away BEFORE any attempts to play begin and things get nasty (ie for 1 to 1.5 seconds instead of 2). As you move away, you should praise her/treat her.

Play is important too, don't get me wrong. You're probably tense in these dog meet/greets, after your experiences, right? Feel more confident in such situations, learn Honey's body language, before you let Honey off-leash play and good things will happen! :)

Karena

Hi Karena,

I agree with you that I think it's very important for Honey to say hello to dogs of all sizes and shapes, which is why I don't feel just avoiding small dogs altogether is a good solution (aside from the fact that I can't always guarantee to avoid them in every situation) and I would rather focus my energies on training Honey how to interact nicely with small dogs, rather than just avoiding them.

I like your idea of shortening their meeting time and that is what I have been doing - yesterday we met a German Shepherd out jogging with his owner and they paused when they passed us and Honey and the GS sniffed - then I quickly called her and moved on, before she could start pawing his face or jumping on him - and the whole encounter went very smoothly and it was amazing how just after 1 positive encounter like that, my confidence soared up notches (although similarly, after one negative one, it plummets! :( ).

If you have to keep correcting your dog with a check chain then it is not working otherwise your dog would no longer need correction!!

If your breeder is correct and your dog is only dominant on walks then this is hardly true dominant behaviour.  A dog that is DOMINANT will always be dominant it will not apply in certain situations only.

What may be happening is that your dog is very exhuberant about her walk and wants 'her head' so to speak.  To make her understand that you dictate what happens on walks and she doesn't try this.

Take her to a park where there are sure to be distractions and plenty of pathways that change direction, branch off etc.  Have your dog on the lead and start walking.  Everytime you come to a branch in the path and your dog heads off one way you go the other, without saying a word, and make your dog  follow, if she goes left you go right, if she goes ahead turn around and retrace your steps.  Never follow your dog. If she sees a dog across the park and wants to go to them turn away and bring her with you.  She may yap and bark when her wishes are thwarted but ignore her.  At first this will be exausting and you will return home absolutely shattered but it pays  off.  After a couple of goes at this your dog should appreciate that you are the leader and she follows you (and pays more attention to where you are going!).  All of it is done without correction, shouting, reprimands etc etc.

This has turned around lots of out of control, badly behaved dogs whose only sin was that their owners had not realised the need to teach them how to behave in the first place.   Your dog is young so now is the best time for her to learn she can't always do what she wants in public places.

Sorry, got interrupted and couldn't finish my earlier post!

Once your dog realises she doesn't know which direction you are going to take she should start to take more notice of you and stay closer to you.  This takes the edge of the excitable behaviour and means you are much more in control of your dog.

You can then start walking towards other dogs with your dog remaining calmer and showing some self control which is probably all that is wrong at the moment. 

If she is really showing aggression towards other dogs then that is a different situation to deal with.

I've got a boxer and we often meet up with a Great Dane up at the local field.  They fly around together, pin each other down, spring back up, pin each other down again, growl snarl snap and slobber all over each other - its all a part of play and they LOVE it (even to the point of me having a boxer AND a great dane in the back of my car the other day - I opened the door for Glaz my boxer and the Dane followed him!!)

I had it described to me that dogs don't shake hands and say a polite hello to each other - and what seems to us to be aggressive behaviour is generally acceptable to dogs!!  You'd soon know if Honey was being aggressive - she has the power to really hurt those little dogs if she wanted to and by the fact that she hasn't makes me think that she's just trying to play.

Do you know any people local to you with bigger dogs that Honey could socialise and play with regularly?

Hi Suzie,

Thanks for your suggestions. My trainer actually gave me exactly the same method you described (we watched him work with her in class and it was like magic - she was so focused on him) and we have been applying it with a lot of success. But- her usual walk was never much of a problem anyway - especially with this new method, she is walking very nicely beside me and constantly looking to me and watching me - her problems only start when we see another dog, even across the street. Then suddenly, I just cease to exist and her nice walk goes to pieces and she's pulling to get over to the dog. If I do as you suggested and change direction, she won't follow (like she usually does) but will keep pulling/lunging more in the opposite direction towards the dog. She can get very strong doing this and if I don't use the choke chain to give her a stong flick to get her attention and break her "spell" on the other dog, then she'll get into state where she'll just literally drag me over to the other dog. Once the lead is tight, I have no hope and I'm not strong enough to pull against her. I need to have it loose and to give her a "Correction" with a flick of the chain in order to "wake her up" and get her attention back on me. I have tried with a Halti as well but she doesn't respond as well - she just twist around so that she is facing me and so if I pull, it's not effective. Even if I manage to turn her head, she'll lunge and twist on the Halti. It's almost as if constant pulling pressure doesn't do anything - it's why I went back to the choke chain because the flick was the only thing which broke the spell enough to get her attention back on me and for me to lead her away. She just isn't interested in me and where I'm going once a dog appears on the scene so just changing directions doesn't seem to be enough.

I agree though that I don't think she is truly dominant. Aside from the fact that she is very well-behaved at home and outside without the presence of other dogs - also, her sister came to visit yesterday and I forgot to take away her marrow bone in the garden and her sister went up to the bone and she didn't even object - so I don't think she is really dominant but it's like she doesn't respect me when there is another dog there. Her desire to get over to it and play with it overrides everything else and she exerts no self-control at all. Whereas with the trainer in class, when she tries to ignore him and lunge over to the other dog, he "corrects" her with a flick of the chain and gets her attention back on him and won't let her ignore him, even if it means a stronger flick - and after a couple times of this, you can see her visibly respecting him: looking up at him, her ears alert, her tail wagging - she still wants to go over to play with other dogs but she respects his authority too much to dare lunge or pull him - she is exerting a bit of self-control. I just wish she could be like that with me!

Hi Hsinyi

I know what you mean that it all goes to pot when Honey sees another dog but that is exactly the time you have to insist she does what you want.  It is so hard I know, I've been there with more than one reactive dog and it's really, really physically demanding but you must persevere.  Stay absolutely calm but insistent, if your dog can't get her reward - getting to the other dog, she will stop doing this.It usually doesn't take all that long but it is so worth it in the end.  I have never used a choke chain but have tried a harness and a halti and combinations of either one of these + collar on the double-ended lead.  I came home sweating after each session and people thought I had a mad dog because he spent so much time up on his back legs still watching a spec (another dog or even skate-boarder) disappear into the distance.

Now the same people who gave us a wide berth stop and ask if this is the same dog!  He now sits at heel amongst groups of owners and their dogs and he is fine!

If you work with Honey at home on the constant changing of direction (if she's not trying to dictate direction  - change anyway) introduce a "this way" command with an incentive of a tasty treat.  If you get Honey to make the association that she goes with you on this command, it comes in useful when the distractions are about.  It is very easy to train a dog when nothing tempts it to do the wrong thing but the dog is only ever really trained when it has a choice to make and still choses to respect the owner.   

I can't agree with those who say leave your dog to sort this out with other dogs.  It is unfair on other dogs.  Unless you know all the dogs that Honey is likely to meet and know their medical condition and temperament, your dog can do untold damage without ever meaning to.  We would not allow our children to go running up to smaller, younger, disabled, fragile children and launch 'playfully' on their backs, pulling them to the ground and jumping all over them.  We should not allow our dogs to do likewise.

Once our dogs know how to behave they get all the freedom they can handle - that's the privilege that comes with good manners.

As your trainer is familiar with this method, would he be willing to work with you in a public setting?  If he is stronger that you, might he do a little of the handling for you in the initial stages?

Best wishes

Hsinyi

One thing, I suggested a park for working in because you can, to some extent, control the distance between your dog and others.  It's not so easy on a road/street.  Even if it means taking your dog by car to a park it is worth it.  You can keep decreasing the distance between your dog and the approaching one, before you turn away, as she gets better at listening to and obeying you.  Hope this helps.

"surely I ought to be correcting her when she starts to get rough?"

"You cannot tell her how to do this.  She is a dog - you are not.  The only way Honey will learn how to have a civilised conversation and play appropriately with other dogs is to have conversations and play with dogs who will teach her."

I'm sorry if it offends anyone that I disagree. I have a Labrador Retriever, two Chihuahuas and a cocky Doberman pup who has up until a few months ago been very rough and scary in his attempts to play with the little dogs. The Chihuahuas growled and snapped, but that didn't deter him for long. If I had not corrected him, he might have really hurt them or worse. Forget leaving it up to the dogs when there's such a huge size difference. You've got to let your dog know in no uncertain terms that what YOU say goes. Nevermind what is going on between the dogs and their little pack. I told him "leave it." "Gentle" and showed him what I meant by gentle by bending down and patting the Chi's very softly and using my gentlest voice, adding in a tone of extreme, cautiousness...."uh-oh....gentle" (hard to explain) Then when he would get rough again, I would let him know with my voice to KNOCK IT OFF. He learned and now seems to know his own strength and he and the little girl lie on the floor mouthing and pawing eachother in play....very carefully.

Of course, there's a difference when Lyric gets practice every single day 24/7 as opposed to Honey who isn't living with small dogs. But the more practice or exposure, the better. But you'll have to be strong enough to get her under control. And that's where the training to pay attention and respect you comes in in other areas. Keep working on that, using advice given here to teach her to watch you and go along with your wishes. I think once she gets her other obedience lessons better, it will apply to all kinds of situations. Just keep working at it. And these obedience lessons need to be all fun, positive (that's where all positive is needed) practicing things with little distractions etc. I like to use treats to get Lyric to be motivated and my happiest voice. Don't let your discouragement transfer into your attitude. Make training sessions a party. End on a good note with something the dog does well. Practice a few times a day till she can't seem to pay attention anymore. I know she'll be fine....just slow to mature, that's all. I had a GSD who took a long time to grow up. And this Dobe will too.

I think this leniency and advice about ignoring everything, never correcting anything goes too far. You can avoid other dogs and these situations, but Honey will not learn how to interact appropriately with them and you'll probably always have to be cautious. I think it's prudent to still watch them though.

Yesterday my Dobe, Lyric and I met a tiny, 10 week old Springer pup....the cuttest little fluff I've seen in a long time. After Lryic met the pup, they set him down and Lyric was the perfect gentleman, soooooooo gentle, just sniffed and licked and gave a little wag. Then he just  lay down by the pup. When he plays with big dogs, he's a maniac. So he's learned with my assistance to adjust his strength and wildness according to the size of dog. They have to be shown when you're dealing with extreme differences in size. Even my breeder told me that with this Dobe. "Forget leaving it up to those Chi's. They're too small. You're the one he must listen to. And you get after him when he's too rough." She's been breeding and handling Dobes for 40 years and is a respected dog show judge. Lyric's grandsire, her dog has been #1 Dobe in the country many times over. This lady trains and handles Dobes and has for years.

I've never seen more problems with aggression (which I don't think this is) than on this board and I've been on lots of boards. I've never seen more behavior problems in general than on this board. I'm telling you, don't be afraid to guide your dog confidently and firmly. Don't be afraid to tell your dog which end is up. Of course I'm not saying to be harsh, heavy handed or nasty or frightening. But dogs, especially the working type need a firm, confident leader and that's you.

P.S. If Lyric had had only 10 minutes of exercise a day, he probably would have leveled a small town. I understand about the bones, but I bet Honey can romp and play longer than 10 minutes. Ask 2 or 3 vets for their opinion.

Carrie

I think that up to a point one can control a dog with other dogs, and even stop them getting OTT, usually with the voice, but it is much harder to actually explain to a dog what it needs to do in order to be socially acceptable to and with other dogs. For example a dog can be told off if it lunges, but it is only the dog and the other dog it is communicating with that can sort out who sniffs where, who paws without being pushy, what play is acceptable, etc etc....and dogs are usually better left to interract on their terms with suitable "teacher type dogs" if possible. (JMHO)

Lindsay
X

Hi, I can fully appreciate your problems as my GSD pup is exactly the same as yours. She is 7 months old and getting more bolshy the older she gets. We also attend training classes and she behaves very well in this situation and only barks at any dogs who bark at her but away from class is a different matter. On our walks in the park or in our shopping area any other dog she encounters (both on leads) she will bark and lunge to get at them and if we get any nearer snarling and agressive behaviour ensues as she has wound the other dog up before we get within striking distance. The other shoppers look at you as if to say that your dog is dangerous and you shouldn't be there. I have to use a Halti and a combi-collar as I am 60 and not able to hold her without it. This week at class we had a newcomer with an Afgan Hound who was also of the same temperament and all the trainer said was "you must get on top of this behaviour" without any real guidance as to how we could achieve this. Even on this board there seems to be conflicting advice. I am wondering if a one to one session with a behavourist might be of benefit as I appreciate it is hard to give advice when the exact behaviour can't be seen. I live in Liverpool, England and would appreciate it if anyone could recomend anyone in my area.  

gaby

hope this will help

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Merseyside

Lindsay,

I agree with you as far as letting the dogs sniff each other and check each other out on their own without intervention from us. It's how they get aquainted and decide what they think of eachother. It's when things are about to get dangerous or just plain too rough that a dog who's use to paying attention to their owner should be able to listen....it is not too much to expect the dog to listen. If two equal sized dogs are playing roughly, I wouldn't worry. They do let eachother know if something hurts. But a very large dog and a tiny dog......naw....By the time the little one says "ouch" it's too late sometimes.

Yesterday I took my dog with me to a cabin which I just started cleaning. I told the lady that I'd have to bring him as this is actually two cabins and would take too many hours to leave him in his crate. (not quite ready to leave alone loose in the house) I take him with me to one other cabin and he's very well behaved, just lies and chews his toy or trots around outside and comes right back in and chills out. (he's really calmed wa-a-a-ay down in the last few months) He is really a velcro dog. I can let him outside anywhere and he wouldn't dream of running off....HAS to be...is compelled to be very near me, making sure all is well, safe and normal. He can play around, but keeps coming back to check on me every minute or so. LOL. (lovin' this breed)

Anyway, she said that would be fine, that she loves dogs. She had a Golden mix, a Lab and a Mini Dachund. The bigger dogs rather intimidated Lyric. They didn't do much, but sniff and push around a little. But all of them at once hovering around him made him a little worried at first.

We just watched and let them do their communicating....their thing and waited to make sure they'd get along. In about 5 minutes they were all accepting of eachother. But Lyric liked the Mini Dachund the best and it was mutual. They ran and chased and played just like my Chihuahuas do with Lyric. I reminded him to be gentle with his paws with the same voice I use at home and they were great. After a while all 4 dogs were sprawled out on the patio, tongues hanging out. LOL. So far, at just about a year of age, Lyric seems to not have any aggression problems. If anything, he's more apt to be slightly cautious at first with new dogs, but quickly becomes comfortable. So he doesn't intimidate anybody and then usually they're more apt to be friendly in response. This was on their territory too.

Like it was said, dogs mature at different rates and I think that in itself will be a big turning point for Honey. Maybe Lyric is maturing sooner or maybe it's just a different temperament. But I do insist that he minds me and develops some self control...same as I did with my kids. LOL.

Carrie

toby is the same,he even ignores treats when he gets fixed on other dogs.i have been in the situtation when you have got to pass others close.and with a big dog that can't help but try and say hello it does make you sweat.but i will not avoid small dogs,he needs to learn how to interact with little ones correctly.
he wouldn't do this if i avoid them,he doesn't jump on them though.i know of other leo's that have been acttacked and still thought it was part of the game.they don't read the others dogs signs because they are so excited.the other problem is if you never allow them to mix with others (look but don't touch)how can they learn manners,also this would make them more determined to go at some stage.
they are called gentle giants but not many are gentle they dont know their own size or strength.
if i only allowed him to mix with big dogs he would think it was ok to be rough with any dog he came across,he needs to learn to act different.
i would like to know what you can do with a dog that is not interested in treats? how do you get the attention or reward this is 1 of the problems i have.
i walk him on a dogmatic head collar but if he is on a collar he will ignore or try and pull more.
you do compare siblings but i try and remember they are unique good and bad, toby's breeder has 2 of his and his brother is laid back,calm,quite etc.totally different to him in alot of ways but i wouldn't swap even though he can be hard work.toby idea of the vets is a big playground to play with any thing thats in there at the time,but i take him in because i am not prepared to stand outside with him all his life.
they always say if you can survive the first few years with a giant breed then you will have a good one in time.

It just sounds like Toby has a VERY strong drive and that's why he's so fixed on the other dogs. It's too bad the treats don't work. I don't know what you could find that would be more interesting to him....maybe some moving toy??? I guess just more and more obedience training without too many distractions and then gradually adding them is what you'll need to do. And try to make it so that when he listens to you and watches you for directions, the payoff is so fantastic, that he won't be able to help himself....that he'll be sure to pay attention to you later....when you have these distractions. LOL. That, plenty of exercise, plus his maturing should help. I'm sure you're right how they say that once you get past the first few years, the dog will be wonderful for you. Some breeds are just very juvenille for a longer time.

Carrie