My 2 year old male has just been quite aggressive towards me, both him and my 8 month old bitch were being a bit hectic so I was trying them both into a down, he began to growl at me so I reprimanded him and he became even more aggressive. I scruffed him round the neck and after a little more growling he settled then I insisted he went into a down stay after which once I let him up I took him out of the room and have left him on his own (just for 5 mins or so).  This is the first time he has challenged my authority in this way and I have no intention of letting him get away with it, he is normally very placid and good in temprement, he is physically fine the only other thing I can think may partially attribute to this is Ellie could be coming into her first season?  Have I handled this situation correctly or is there something else I could have done? or should have done.  I would like to be better prepared should he attempt this again.  All advice very welcome as not at all nice having six and a half stone of Dobie snarling at you.
She

Personally I would never physically challenge a dog, especially one the size and strength of yours. If he's pushed to retaliate, you will be the loser, so it's best to avoid confrontation like that.

My guess is that his growling after you challenged him was out of fear ("Oh no, mum's cross!") and not aggression.

I have to agree Jeanie, it was not a pleasant few minutes but it was completely out of the blue and I felt that I had to do something as the request I was making of him was not unreasonable, I think what I am trying to find out is where the fine line is between not letting him get away with trying to assert his dominance over me but without it becoming confrontational especially due to his breed and size, plus I hate having to behave towards in him this manner, for all there tendencies Dobes are very sensitive, he's looking very sorry for himself now and I quite hate myself. 
She

Well I think you did the right thing, cant let them get away with that.
Amos

Thanks Amos, as in my reply to Jeanie I need to try and establish what is a balance

I believe that what you have experienced is typically one of the drawbacks of a relationship based on the theory that you must dominate and be the boss.  If you get cross and frustrated with your dog then he will learn, from your example, to get cross and frustrated when he doesn't get what he wants. Any attempts by you to discipline him will be seen as confusing and unpredictable behaviour, or worse still taken to be a challenge, one that he may readily accept and more than likely win! By acting in a calm controlled manner, concentrating on positive training, your dog will know what to expect, see you as an unflappable leader, and be eager to please.

I agree with Sally; I also don't believe in pushing dogs into a position such as sit or down, it just creates resistance, the very thing you are trying to avoid  

Confrontational methods have a poor success rate and a chequered history.

please, whatever you do, do _not_ physically discipline your dog.  ever!  not only does this ruin the relationship you have with the dog (I speak from personal experience - my relationship with my dobe, now a 16 month male, only got really good when I stopped physically punishing), but physical attempts at dominance are something only subordinate dogs use - never a true alpha.  you will only suggest to the dog that you are not suitable for alpha and are trying to make up for that physically - and both you and the dog know that you are on the losing side of such a match between you.

Hi Nikirushka, thanks for your reply, hope I didn't give the impression that I physically hurt him (by scruffing him I meant I had him firmly by his collar and insisted that he  went down). I do believe in positive reininforcement as a rule but for the instance it happened I was at a loss just how to react.  In this situation how would you have dealt with his behaviour? I definatley do not want him to respect me out of fear.
She

hi

i think your right in that he reacted in this way cos your bitch is about to come into season and you interupted their flirting, you had no choice in repremanding him as he growled when you insisted he go down and the situation had to finish with you getting over him if it had'nt you would in the future have worse problems with him thinking he is top dog, next time when their getting carried away with their play distract them away from each other with food or something then give the commands because once you start a challange you have to see it through with yourself winning and when his hormones are running wild through his veins for the bitch he may put up a fight what will you do when she's in season?

j

Hi J, I think you have hit the nail on the head, this will be Ellie's first season, nothing has appeared yet just my two males (other is a 12 yr old Lab) showing a lot of interest in her but that has fluctuated on and off for about four weeks now.  I have a kennel that Ellie goes in outside so complete seperation for the period of the dreaded event will have to be the order of the day. (and lots of valium-for me not the dog).  Also I have a lot of support off their breeder ie advice etc.  If this occurs again I will adopt the measures you have described, in retrospect it appears quite the obvious thing to have done but I was so surprised.  As Jeanie pointed out respect is not earned through being afraid so do not want to go down that route and have all the character knocked out of him.
Today though he has responded to my every request, really towing the line so to speak.  Most dfinatley a learning experience for both of us.
Thanks to all for your replies.
She

Just as a sideline, I feel I ought to point out that dogs (or people for that matter) don't respect someone they fear. They may well obeythem when there is no option, but they won't like or respect them. Think about it - do people respect bullies?

It may be an idea to bear in mind that some dogs become aggressive due to a health problem which needs a vet to detect (proper tests, blood etc) so it may be worth just bearing this in mind if the problem does occur in the future :)

If this behaviour was absolutely out of the blue and your dog has no cause to be scared of you then i would be thinking along those lines :). 

It may not be a bad idea too to practice Downs with lots of rewards for him doing it, starting off with few distractions and gradually building up to doing it in the park or somewhere where there are lots; does he have a special tou used only for training, or extra special food treats? You can build up on the fact that the dog, when asked to down, then remembers it is self rewarding to do so and with lots of practise he should be able to do it any time :) even if he is huped up. This is the route i would go down.

Lindsay
x

whenever my dobe boy does something out of order now, he gets sent straight into another room and the door shut for a given time, depending what he's done.  for example, if he's being pushy at dinner, he goes for 5 minutes; if he nicks something off the plate (he doesn't btw, but u get the idea!) he goes for 10 and so on.  it all depends.

but IME, the best type of negative reinforcement with a dobe is isolation - they need to be with their owners, physically, even behind a gate is often not enough for them, so isolation is a very effective training tool.

Thanks for your reply, its given me some really good food for thought.  Zac is usually pretty good, my puppy has since come into season, so hopefully this was a one off with him.  But I will try the isolation technique for future problems. Thanks She

i think you did all the corcet things and i think you are a responsable owner of the bread you made him submit to you but he is a big dog but you seem to beable to manage him and not afraid of what he was doing to you maby it was that she was coming in and he was protecting her thinking she was his
bye for now from fiona

Err i know this wont go down well but.....I think your dog is trying to find out whos incharge ..ie top dog...I would suggest you have to be firmer with him ...i dont mean physically but let him know whos running the show..think i saw that you should control the dog ie hold him still and dont let him go till you decide...something along those lines..if you dont let the dog know then its bound to think its incontrol of you = big problem!

i agree totally rogue, he did'nt want to stop what he was doing full grown dobermans are a whole lot of powerful dog they have to learn to obey she did right to repremand him although i fear he will challenge her again as the drive of hormones for the bitch coming into season will instigate it i am not saying use physical punishment but yes be very firm and don't ignore the slightest hint of a challenge, best not to let the situation arise in the first place and keep the 2 dogs apart while she is on the verge of her season.

j 

i totally agree as well he needs to learn what is corcet and what is not
fiona

I have taken everything on board that has been said and don't disagree with any of your advice, thankyou all.  Since the other evening he has not put a foot wrong (he's only just gone 2 years himself so still a bit of a baby). I think I was just so shocked the other night, even though I'd expected this to happen at some point.  Any way I intend to move forward on a positive note and put all the good advice in to practice, I really adore the breed and love them both to bits so the last thing I want is to have an unruly (think that's how its spelled :D ) Dobe that portrays the breed in a bad light. And as i said previously Zac has the most tolerant temprement the majority of the time I don't want the way I handle the odd blip to be negative and have a lasting efeect on this.
Regard to all
She

I did have a similar event with Rogue when she was in her second season...she sleeps in my bedroom she got off her bed wandered up to mine and like she didnt growl or anything but just wouldnt go back to her bed and refused to move...i found this quite worrying...Rogue`s a strong wee bugger...anyways i got out of my bed and got her by the collar and put her back in her bed...she tried it on again about 5 mins later...this time her hair was up on her back...hmmm...anyways got up again....made sure she knew i meant it ...ie firm voice ..led her by her collar back to her bed and she seemed to accept it.....I know that was her challenging me.....i knew at the time it was...i mean you know your dog...Anyways after or little Spanish standoff shes never done it again...Also sometimes if your like playing with your dog i mean like rolling around with them...or is that just me?...just if theyre getting too hyper just hold them to calm them down this also helps to let them know your boss...then play like a dafty again....Rogue loves it when she gets told to lie down or sit and stuff...i think they enjoy knowing thier place...gives them less to worry about pecking order and more time to thinkup stupid things to do!