As an owner and breeder of Staffordshire Bull Terriers, I have got to put it to others that there are way too many Black Brindles. Some people will think that colour is of no real importance, but the standard states that the breed colour is any colour other than Black & Tan or Liver. Up until Black Tusker came along black brindle was no more common than red, brindle or pied which indicated a large gene pool but there is such an imbalance in today's colours I think something should be done. You can see a line up of 25 dogs and 20 of them will be B/B, this is also the first tangible sign that the gene pool of the breed has narrowed significantly in recent years and this can only have a negative affect on the long term health of the breed. Also it soon going to become more increasingly difficult to find quality stock that is not B/B
I know people will criticise me for suggesting this as a Stafford should be judged for its physical characteristics and not its coat colour, but I think the time has come that judges should pay more attention to the colour of the breed. i.e. if you have a pied or a red and a B/B that are pretty similar in a physical sense, I think the judge should favour the red or the pied.

I'm with AOL and I'm having a nightmare trying to register with champdogs, so I doubt I will be able to join in with the chat, but please leave your views on this what I consider important matter

Hello Guest, I look foward to you registering and then debating the point with you. I own black brindle Staffords and actually always have done since 1978. But I look forward to talking to you about this. Because as I am sure you know Ch Gentleman Jim the first stafford Ch was a pied dog. :) he was sired by a brindle dog called aptly Brindle Mick out of a black/brindle bitch called Triton Judy, so it appears other colours (ie Gentleman Jim a pied) have been around the winning enclosure longer than brindles.

As well as the fact it should ALWAYS be the dog not the colour of the coat than wins.
Have a good day
Karen

<<<if you have a pied or a red and a B/B that are pretty similar in a physical sense, I think the judge should favour the red or the pied.>>>

I disagree- the judge should choose the better dog regardless of colour.

Two dogs may be similair but wont be identical in every way- therefore the better dog should win.

Surely the colour of the dog is down to personal preference just like when choosing a car.If you want a pink one thats fine but if you want a black one no problem.As long as all dogs being bred meet the KC breed standard and are free from faults and genetic problems,i can't see the problem.Obviously you breed pied and reds thats your choice.I on the other hand prefer Black Brindle.If you would like to see more variety of colours in shows encouraging new owners and children to get involved may be a good way to go.Getting children involved in dog training or ringcraft classes with this fantastic breed has to be the way to go as they are the future.

Hi Guest,
i do agree with your that there are a lot fewer red, pied Stafford's about and most dogs in the ring these days are B/B 
but i do not agree with this
<<<<if you have a pied or a red and a B/B that are pretty similar in a physical sense, I think the judge should favour the red or the pied.>>>>
to me the best dog should win what ever its colour,

and i have to say that i don't show but a friend of mine does and she has a red and white dog and she will tell me that she always checks to see who the judge is just to see if he is one of the few that don't like reds.  a few judges will not place a red or pied at all even if the B/B are of poor quality.

and just wanted to know what colour the guest has, as i have 3 red's and hopefully a red pied next year

(if you cant reg with aol, try using a hotmail account worked for a friend of mine)

Preference is what makes us all different. You may like blonde women whilst the man next to you likes brunnettes or redheads! Certain judges will pick out b/b and others will pick out reds or pieds. Remember that type and ring presence are other factors of a judges final decision and at the moment the reds and pieds are struggling as people are afraid to go into black brindle when mating as they 'd rather use a red but Ch Ashtock By Jupiter is a red whose mother is b/b and father is red so you can put good qualitites from both into your breeding and still retain the colour you like. We are hoping to put a b/b over our red and white pied bitch next year as he has the qualities we feel she needs without taking away any of her qualities.

I don't agree with guest, when she says, (if you have a pied or a red and a B/B that are pretty similar in a physical sense, I think the judge should favour the red or the pied.) for the simple reason why should they. And I show a red dog.
But I do think more times out of 10, when you get a black/black brindle and a red, of the same standard the black wins. It's obvious the judge prefers the b/b on colour alone. There is a lot of judges around who would let the colour of the dog stand in the way of more inportant things. But lets face it a lot of things come higher on the judges list that don't even involve the dog, but thats going off the subject a bit.
But IMO though more judges prefer b/bb.

mitch

that is what i was trying to say, my friend will not go under some judges cos she know even if her dog is the best in the ring at the time (he is doing well in the ring) the judge will put a poorer b/b dog over hers some times her dog will not even get placed and other dogs with bad mouths and bad moment movement will. (her dog has a good mouth and very good movement)

totaly agree with you luxnallsstaffs
out of all the stud dogs i have been looking at for my bitch i have decided to use a brindle pied, i have seen a lot of red studs and non of them can offer what this stud has and he also goes well with my bitch.  i know that im not going to get a red litter but as long as i get what i want and happy healthy puppies with good pedigree's how care's

Guest, I know nothing about Staffies, but plenty about AOL :rolleyes: email Admin and ask them to email your password to you, as AOL block the automated replies from here.

Good Luck

liberty :)

Some of the best black brindle dogs have either red or pied dogs in their pedigree or vice versa :)

Karen

I admit, I also know nothing about Staffs, but surely the reason there are so many black brindle dogs is due to it being dominant and red/piebald being recessive? I also know little about genetics and stand to be corrected!

I also disagree with the statement about the judge should place the reds before the BB's, they should pick the best dog regardless of colour.

It is all well and good there being a lot of B/B but the question is of course is the quality in the numbers and sadly I have to say there are not. :( There are champion dogs out there throwning harelips etc but people use thenm because they are champions. They happen to be B/B and reds do seem to have more than their fair share of eye problems.

Kennels like Ashstock as someone has already said, have historicaly bred champions in both red and blacks that is the way it should be a good dog is a good dog regardless. And mixing the colours has always been the way Staffords have been bred.

At the moment it is B/B at the forefront but it will come back to being Reds or pieds again as sure is eggs is eggs.


Karen

Fashions in colours come and go. Conformation, health and temperament should be paramount (not necesarily in that order).

At SWKA on the 8th of July there was a huge variety in colour and type of dogs and bitches and the judge picked out two b/b for his dogs and his reserve dog but picked out two reds for his bitch cc and reserve. There are more b/b's than reds or pieds but with dogs like Fagin at Dengar, Staffmaster Equilibrium, Judael Dreammaker, Bullmitz Bon Jovi and Herodotus Sodamtuff, plus others I can't think of right now, available to use for improving lines I think that the future is looking very rosy for the reds and the pieds.

You're dead right luxnallsstaff, and yet a kennel such as Judael would be possibly considered a B/B kennel by many yet out they come with a good red. :) And I agree the future is bright for reds pieds and brindles a nice example of which is Crumkill King of the Bay at Ryantha.

So the best dog on the day should get placed regardless of colour, rather than because of it.

And guest to say >>>>>>>>> i.e. if you have a pied or a red and a B/B that are pretty similar in a physical sense, I think the judge should favour the red or the pied.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well if I were the owner of that red or pied dog placed I would not be happy knowing they placed the dog because of his/her colour rather than because she/he were the better of the two.

Karen

I have had a black brindle dog so i know what heir colouring is like but what is classed as a black and tan - whats the difference - as i know you are unable to k c reg a dog of this colour

black and tan is similair to the colouring of a Rotti

You cant show this colour but Im sure you can still register it if both parents are registered

Thankyou :8) xx

black and tans
i like the top 1 :)
and they can still be reg but not shown like LEL said

I have a tri-colour Bull Terrier, but I have never seen a tri-colour staff. Essentially tri-colour is black and tan but with white bits. Can you show a tri-colour staff or is it classed as black and tan, I think it would be nice to see some tri-colour staffs

No unfortunately not :rolleyes: :)

a friend of mine has a tri colour stafford, she is black and tan with a little white chest,  there is no diffrecne in her colour from the ones i showed you other than she has a litter white on her chest.  and on her pedigree she is down as balck and tan

You can show a black and tan or tri colour staff....BUT you wouldn't get placed.Its the same as white GSD's etc....as long as they are KC reg you are entitled to enter any show except crufts.It would however be a waste of money.
Archer