I was considering changing my dog's food, after hearing so much about the BARF diet. Doing some research, I came across this website and changed my mind. Thought I pass it on, should it help anyone.

http://secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat.html

This website is an extremely well known PROPAGANDA site,they sell their own products,do they not??
I'm not a raw advocate,the only truly raw meat my dogs get are raw meaty bones,the rest of their meat and veg is lightly sauteed,i also feed commercial food.

Dogs systems are designed to handle raw meat,they have been surviving on this diet for tens of thousands of years  up until the invention of commercial foods 50-60 years ago!Dogs can handle tainted meat that would kill a human with no problems,their digestive juices are extremely strong and can handle more than we give them credit for.

I have shih-tzu's and they can handle any raw bone i give them.My mum has been feeding raw for 60 years and she has NEVER had a problem.I am more inclined to listen to experience than some website.YOU need to judge for yourself,do not let anyone or anything put you off of feeding a species appropriate diet,a crappy commercial food,maybe,but not a food dogs are designed to eat.You will get to know your dogs chewing prowess,be it chomp,chomp swallow or swallow whole and you will learn to adjust to suit your dogs needs.

Please post your questions and concerns and i can guarantee you i will be able to rebutt them all with sound experienced advice.

Look forward to hearing from you.

christine

Think most people are aware of the problems with feeding raw or feeding ready made. You only had to look at details of the case a year or so ago regarding chicken meant for the raw pet food trade and being sold onto supermarkets for human consumption. The chemical vats that the meat was 'washed' in really bothered me and I only hope that because the complete food I feed has been heat treated there is no need for it to be chemically treated. But who know what happens to our or our pets food, we have to trust and hope, only consolation is that dogs, because of their life span, do have less chance of chemical build up, but after some of the things I saw both on the TV and for myself I would never feed raw to us or the dogs. But there are those who would prefer to do so, think everyone has to make up their mind on what they are prepared to do, and what they believe best for their families and their animals. Different people have different experience and come to different conclusions.

As in anything in life you will find a site to support/undermine all sorts of things.  Always ask, what is their agenda.....................? 

I suppose it could have nothing to do with the dog food THEY sell..............

funny this has come up.  I took Fagan to training last night and eveyone was commenting on how good he looked, he has grown taller and has put on weight (he was painfully thin :( ) this is after a week of being on BARF !!  The trainer did say that she would never feed hers on chicken wings incase they pierce the stomach lining, I didnt think much of it until I read this - is there a chance this could happen ?

Yes there is a chance it can happen, highly unlikely but still a chance, there`s a risk with everything we do!
What books have you read & what sites have you been to for reading up on raw? I have my pups eating raw whole quails.ch/wings & small drumsticks & I`ve not seen any bone pass thru, it`s all digested because dogs stomach acids break it down :)

Christine, Spain.

I have read kymythy Schultze and have grow your pups with bones and the barf diet (cant remember if these are lonsdale or billinghurst)  I havent managed to join the bit barf site yet - it crashed on me :(  I personally have total faith in the diet and will be keeping him on it, he looks fantastic and doesnt seem anywhere near as hungry as he was when on burns.

There is always a chance that is life.

I have fed raw for a few years now and guess what my little puppy of 9 weeks choked on a peice of cooked beef that he pinched off my daughters plate when she went to answer the phone.  We nearly lost him honestly.     Only thing I say to people is not to cut things into small peices as I find my gulp them quicker this way, if the bits are a lot bigger, ie whole wings then they chew them rather than gulp them.  Well that is what I have found anyway. :-)

I'm sure you could find a website for any brand / way of feeding dogs, which would say it was bad /wrong. Do some more research, and weigh up the pros and cons. If you put BARF into 'search', here on Champdogs, you will find lots of information and views. ;)

liberty

Oh godness, the replies... It was something I found on line that I thought was interesting and helped me make a decision and thought might be useful for others.  I don't believe they were selling dog food.  In fact, I've just gone back to the site myself and they weren't selling any products at all. They are a non-profit.

I've seen the brands they liked and mentioned - -all natural or people grade foods readily available in pet supply and health food stores. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating one diet or food over any other. We all have our own opinions. The bottom line is raising and maintaining a healthy dog.

I think it is great you posted it; everyone should look at all subjects from all angles and POV in order that they can sort the wheat from the chaff and come to their own conclusions.

Granted I was a little worried when reading the site - however when I saw the picture of three dogs sat round what appears to be a cake wearing what appear to be party hats I thought...Nutters!  To many direct comparisons with humans for my liking, suggesting that 'we' are both omnivores and have similar dietry requirements mmmmmm I dont have carnassial molars, you know, the one's that crack bones, shear meat and the like!  I also wouldn't expect vets to promote barf seeing as they make so much money from their own products with 'science' and 'veterinary' in the name!  Lets put dogs on these diets and when their teeth become disgusting we will have them in for a GA and clean them.......There is also lots of mention about dogs and wolves that come into the shelter malnurished, my immediate thought is why have they ended up in the shelter?  Surely they are not strong, fit individuals to have ended up being taken in!!!  Ah, perhaps I'm just trying to convince myself???

Has anyone studied the list of ingredients on a bag of "chick crumbs" that are used to raise chicks on?

I have a friend who works in a chicken processing plant, she is totally 100% against BARF, I wonder why?????????

Does your friend not eat chicken then either ? or feed food to her dogs with chicken in ?

I feed BARF because it suits my dog, when on Burns he lost so much weight I nearly cried, it gave him really bad runs and after spending out hideous amounts of money on vets bills (and on the recommended food from the vets - hey I was willing to try anything to make my little boy better ) I decided to change him to BARF and I havent looked back, sourcing organic food has been a problem but no doubt one which I will solve eventually, he has put on 3kg in a week and everyone is commenting on how good he looks, I believe if I had left him on complete it would have eventually killed him.

This of course is just my experience, all my life I have had dogs who have been fed on anything from tripe and mixer to bakers and ceasar   I believe in feed whatever suits the dog - but then I did used to have Afghans and there was very few dog foods they would eat :rolleyes:

So what about the chickens that are in commercial foods then?  Are they raised, fed and slaughtered in a completely different way? :D

Of course you could do what I do and buy organic...............

May be if you are prepared to subsidize my income I could join you, but as things are both myself and my hounds have to eat what I can afford.

I did try some raw food from a well known supplier of raw food for dogs, but after discovering maggots and chrysalis in the pack I decided if I could not afford to feed meat produced for the human market then I would not bother. Then I saw the pictures of the food being taken from the raw food pet market and being dipped into chemical to remove the stench and then the best bits going to the supermarkets and the rest for met mince. No thanks I'll let others deal with it and I will stick to a food that has been high heat treated.

Yes, these things do go on. It is terrible isn't it! Remember the guys who got prosecuted for using meat unfit for human consumption?  they bleached the chicken, rewrapped it and it appeared on our supermarket shelves!

Then there is the mouldy cheese that goes into making processed cheese triangles................

Hence why I am extremely careful with my chicken suppliers and fortunately as we bulk buy as a group the food is incredibly cheap. :)

"Pet" mince is one thing i never have and never will feed my dogs!!

If it's unfit for "human consumption" then it's definately unfit for my dogs.

This was packed and frozen meat from one of the suppliers who are well used in the UK, the maggot was in a pack of minced chicken and the chrysalis in chicken pieces. The reason I had a good look was although I was not sure what color the tripe should look I was not sure the chicken should have the sort of appearance it did. If we could all afford to buy organic that would be fine but most of us can't and most of us do not buy in bulk either, so perhaps it is a bit unfair to suggest to people that they feed in a way that is impossible for most of us.

I would never buy mince of any description either for myself or my dogs as you say there is just so much risk of contamination etc.

You can buy regular chicken for 36p lb from poulty wholesalers; obviously not organic but destined for human consumption.

Jackie what makes you think you have to feed organic?the only organic meats i buy are organ meats,mostly liver.The difference in colour and texture are amazing compared to the shop bought stuff.Other than that my dogs get the same meat i eat. Anything else?

Was talking to Thome

Oh gee,so sorry to impose on your PRIVATE conversation,in future i will wait till i'm spoken to before i write anything :rolleyes:

Please don't be so quick to jump on me, if you had read Thome's post you would have realized that it was that post that spoke of only using organic. Unfortunately if someone replies whilst you are composing a post it gets in the wrong order. I don't type very quickly so lets apply a little understanding of the way the board works and other peoples abilities.

Christine, in the UK there have been several TV programmes exposing some of the shocking practices that go on at some meat wholesalers (bleaching of condemned chicken etc) and also the treatment of intensively farmed animals. The meat from these sometimes finds its way into the human food supplies, and also the pet food market (yes, even as fresh meat).

To be most likely to get the quality we'd all like to eat the only real option is to buy organic. However that is still proced beyond the reach of most people I know. I personally feel that poor-quality meat that has been heat-treated to kill bacteria might be safer than poor-quality meat that hasn't.

I'm not trying to convince you. It's just an opinion.

Hi J/g, not sure if it`s me or Ozzie Christine your talking to, or both of us :D

Christine, Spain.

Ozzie Christine, sorry! (Though you are perfectly free to read it as well!;) )

Seriously, I wish I could afford for even the humans in my family to eat the food I think we all deserve. But I can't. However none of us goes hungry or is ill (humans or animals) so I'm not doing too bad a job. And, for me, that's what matters.
:)

Each of us does the best that we can - but we all have our differing priorities and circumstances. I do my best too, as JG says and that is all that matters.

Daisy

Absolutely, that is all anyone can be expected to do; their best.

Awww thanks J/G, :D :D
I agree, organic is probably too expensive for the majority to feed the family on let alone animals & to have basic decent food is a right of everyone not only the well off.

Christine, Spain.

J/G it almost wants to make you become a vegetarian,it would be so much easier.I have guilt complexes when it comes to eating meat,i struggle to get the picture of the baby animal out of my head as i'm eating a burger ,which is a rare occurence,i hardly eat any meat,only coz the thought grosses me out!

Thats why I am vegetarian, not just because of what they do to the meat but because of intensive farming and how the animals are kept.  If I could guarntee the animal led a fairly natural and pain free life then I would eat it no worries ;)

Course Jackie and JG, you could always do as I do. I know exactly where my birds came from and exactly what they ate. I was the one who fed 'em! ;)

Best wishes, John

I couldn't do that John, I prefer my dinner to be annonymous!!

liberty ;)

OH! John, no good for me I could not bring myself to eat them and you would need an awful lot to keep pace with the dogs ;)
Reminds me of a story, well doesn't everything. When I had GSD's I also kept chickens and at one time we had a hermaphrodite who was always being set upon by the others, so I thought she/he would be better of in the garden and I let her feathers grow so she could roost in the trees. Any way she/he tormented the daylights out of one of the GSD's and one day when I was in the garden I looked up and saw the dog coming down with the chicken in her mouth she took it into the veg patch and dug a hole stuck the chicken in head first and pushed the soil back with her nose. I went over to make sure the chicken was dead and dug it up, there was not even a damaged feather, she/he managed to live for 3 years before the fox got her/him.

Sorry that is so loosely connected to the thread it will no doubt be remove, such is life :)

I wish I could, John, but Mr Lottery hasn't smiled on me! I'd be there, on my smallholding, growing my own beef, lamb, pork, chicken ... I've only had room for chickens (good flavour!) so far.
:)

Arr, but my birds are a bit smaller than chickens and fly a lot faster JG ;) We will be having 1500 6 weeks old's delivered next week. Should be a few good Sunday Roasts there!

Best wishes, John

I've only had a couple of pheasant in the last few years, John. One was caught by the dogs (stupid bird should have flown higher!) and the other shouldn't have been crossing the road when I was passing ...

I don`t know why anyone thinks that prepared processed animal foodstuff is made from better ingredients than what can be bought from raw. The processors use what can`t/won`t be used for human foodstuff for animal food, the meat/fish used is from the same animals/fish humans eat, just whats left over, isn`t that what we`re told?? If rubbish is getting into human food link then it`s getting into animal foodstuffs. Did anyone see the dutch firm that injected ch/pieces to bulk it up, when it was dna tested it had beef and/or pork protien in it. For the human food chain it was for & being sold in UK

Christine, Spain.

Don't think they do Christine (Spain) it is just that from the TV programs some of us have seen where raw food for the pet raw food market was being treated with chemicals to make it 'acceptable' where as that going to the processed food trade was not as it was being heat treated. Most of us can't afford to feed top quality butchers meat and do not think the cheaper stuff from the supermarkets is necessarily much better than that supplied by the specialist pet food suppliers.

I'm new to this post, coming in quite late. I feed 90% raw, but I have very good sources. My butcher slaughters his own meat, and does not buy in from unknown sources. His beef is second to none, I can drive up and see the pigs running riot around the fields (hundreds of them), and he sells free range chickens. The smell and taste of his meat and chicken bring me back to my childhoood. He does not have mince on sale, but will mince down steak if you ask, with nothing added.  He saves the tripe for my dogs, cuts it up - bags it and sells it to me for next to nothing in ready made freezer size portions. Friends who are dog breeders are also organic farmers so I know where my vegetables and eggs come from. I am very lucky.

I feed raw because my 5 year old male Lab thrives on it. He hates complete, and will eat possibly only 1 meal in 3, whereas he eats all his meals on Raw. I don't feed chicken wings, but I do give them chicken thights and breast. I give them lamb chops ( we have thousands of sheep here), pork and bones amongst other things. My lot love Cauliflower and brocolli, corn, fish, cheese and the odd bit of complete like James wellbeloved, and Chappie. I struggled for years with my oldest lab on all sorts of commercial food and whilst the rest will eat anything, he is thriving on RAW so that is what we are sticking to.

I like to know what is in my food.  I put my children off "chicken nuggets"  and burgers. We make our own. I'm convinced that the reason why so many children are "fussy" eaters is due to the commercial paralysis of their taste buds by major food manufacuturers. My children never had commercial baby food, and now have a wide taste in food even at the ages of 10 and 13 (this is a real bug bear subject with me so I'll stop now before I really get carried away).

Hi ManxPat I would guess you do not live in the mainland UK as all animals have to be slaughtered in licensed slaughter houses and there are not that many of them. I have been led to believe that butchers can no longer slaughter their own beasts they have to be sent to a registered slaughter house. Would like to think my information is incorrect but I don't think it is.

You're quite right about the slaughtering regulations, Jackie. Animals whose meat is destined to be sold to the public must be slaughtered at a licenced slaughter-house. A slaughterer is allowed to go to a farm and slaughter animals, but the meat from them must not be sold to the public.

Jackie,an honest question here :)  If you can afford meat for you and your family then how come you cant afford it for your dogs?

I am not pushing you onto barf or homecooked,this Q isnt about what you are feeding,just curious is all ;)

If everyone thought they HAD to feed their pets organic then i doubt there would be very many dogs fed on homemade foods.
I think organic is a luxury and not a neccessity,maybe one day when i win lotto, but until then i'll feed my dogs what i eat :D

christine

Christine (oz) I can't, even supermarket meat only appears on rare occasion and the village butchers meat about once a month. My dogs are fed on good quality food, I could not manage to feed them on meat from the butcher or the supermarket and would not after what I have seen, feed them on meat produced for the pet market. Add to that the fact that having studied animal nutrition for about 12 months I doubt my ability to do the job better than the professional dog food producers, if fact, I doubt my ability to do it well at all. In over 50 years of dog owning I can honestly say I have only ever had one poorly dog and that was caused by castration (hormonal) and had nothing to do with his food. It would I believe be fine for me to let loose a few rabbits or chickens for my hounds to chase, kill and eat, that with the berries and rose hips they already eat would I think be the ideal but not legal nor something I could bring myself to do. So in the absence of being able to feed naturally I will stick to feeding commercially produced food of the quality I can afford, meat derivatives and all.

o.k :)