I wonder if the more experienced breeders on this list can help me.  My six week old puppies have diarrhoea - it is pudding consistency.  They are on Hill's Complete Puppy Food/Scrambled egg/Winalot canned Puppy Food/Bio yoghurt/Vit C.  They were wormed at 3 weeks and 5 weeks with Drontal Puppy Suspension.  They are huge puppies with lovely bone, have glossy coats and are full of energy - so the diarrhoea is obviously not bothering them as much as it is bothering me!  They have been like this for about a week. Should I wait for it to pass or put them onto another food - if so - any suggestions???

Are they having too much food?  Sometimes that will give them the runs

They are being fed 4 - 5 times per day which at this age is my normal regime, and they are clearing the bowls each time.

Even tho the d/rear doesn`t seem to be bothering them it`s not right. I don`t think you should be using all those supplements with the Hills puppy complete, I`d stop them & see how they just go on the complete alone with the live yoghurt & wouldn`t change food just yet. How much vitC are you giving, stop that straight away,they should only be getting a pinch at this age, too much does cause diarhoea so you need to start off small doses & gradually increase to bowel tolerance level. If this doesn`t work after a couple dys take a fecal sample to vet & see if it`s a bug causing it. :)

Christine, Spain.

OK I'll keep them on complete alone with yoghurt once per day for a few days, and see what happens.  I'm giving the Vit C because one of them was knuckling over (early signs of skeletal scurvy), but I think you may be right in that they are getting too much, so I'll reduce the dose right down as from tomorrow.  Many thanks for your input.

Hope it works, lets know how they go on :)
Forgot to say you could start introducing a clove or 2 of crushed garlic & adding some honey to their water.

Christine, Spain.

Will do!  Many thanks.

Have you tried giving them Acidophilus? It's to help balance the good bacterium in the intestinal tract. You can get it at most health food stores and I'd recommend the kind that's refrigerated in the thick liquid form.

No, I haven't  - and when I discussed giving Bio yoghurt to the pups with my Vet - she said it is a waste of time because the bacteria in the gut of dogs is completely different to that in a human gut!!  But I'm still giving them Bio yoghurt once a day regardless!!!  ;o)  As of tonight the consistency of their faeces is getting slightly harder - so fingers crossed I'm hoping they will be back to normal within 48 hours.  I'll keep you all informed - and thanks so much for your input - it really helps concentrate the mind!!

:D :D  Your vet is right, bacteria in the gut of dogs is very different from humans; and mine will be different to yours and mine will be different today than tomorrow because of the differing foods I will be eating :D

However, this does not mean you should not be providing probiotics for your dogs; au contraire.  In general, most of the benefits of live yoghurt will be vastly reduced by the time it reaches the necessary parts, eg the intestine, as many of the bacteria will have been killed by the stomach acid (PH 1 -2 in dogs); hence why it is often best to obtain an encapsulated form of bacteria which is released in the gut rather than the stomach.

It is also wise to use more than one type of bacteria eg acidophilus, bifidus, bulgaricus etc.

This are available at your local health store.

I've no idea about the science but live yoghurt does seem to work! However, I only ever use it after they become 'loose' rather than as a preventative measure.

Thanks for your most enlightening response!  I'll see if I can get any of these tomorrow from my local health food shop.  As of tonight it is still pudding consistency albeit with some slight shape!!  If I can get hold of any (all?) of these - what kind of dose do I administer?

In the US there is a product called Bene bac. it is for puppies, it puts alot of the good bacteria back. Also, we sometimes use canned pumpkin to firm up the stools.
just a couple spoon fulls.

Does not really matter, you cannot OD on probiotics :D  There will be some guidelines on the jar.

Tree Bark Powder is available from Dorwest Herbs and is of excellent quality and purity; a very trustworthy firm who supply several supplements/medecines etc again instructions on the container

http://www.dorwest.com/vet_sup.htm

HTH

Just to bring everyone up to date on this - today the puppies are practically back to normal.  I've actually stopped giving the Vit C altogether as the knuckling over seems to have sorted itself out.  All the information you have kindly given has been carefully filed  away for future reference!  Thank you all once again for your input :o)

Thanks for letting us know, thats great news :D
Now thats sorted could you explain the knuckling over problem?

Christine, Spain.

Of course!  It is when the puppy's ankle joint (pastern) falls forward rather than backward.  Large, heavy boned puppies seem more prone to this (particularly males), and it is basically because their pasterns are too weak to support their body weight.  A very small amount of Vit C sprinkled on their food every day seems to sort the problem out really fast. One of the causes is feeding high-energy, high-protein food to puppies.  There is an excellent informative piece on HOD (skeletal scurvy) on www.gsdhelpline.com/hod.htm

Only humans and guinea pigs can have potential deficiencies in vit c [scurvey]. Dogs etc produce their own. Therefore you are risking overdosing even with a small amount added to their diets. Concentrate on calcium and vit D to keep bones right. The dogs on board the ships to Oz were thin but only the sailors/prisoners had bent bones!! Hope that helps.

To say that only humans and guinea pigs can suffer from potential Vitamin C deficiency is in my opinion a rather ill informed statement.

Just because a dog can and does synthesise its own Vitamin C does not ipso facto guaranteee that all do and it is sufficient for their needs; for example following this line of thought you could equally say that no dog would suffer from deficiences with regard to thyroid, adrenal or pancreas glands when in fact we know that not all animals function at 100% in all areas, including man!

You really cannot OD on Vitamin C as it is water soluble and the first symptom of too much is bowel intolerance ie diarrhoea.

It is much safer to give dogs Vitamin C to encourage healthy bone growth than to add calcium or Vitamin D; the former has been the cause of many bone abnormalities and the latter is fat soluble and is easily OD on!

There are many studies linking the efficacy of extra Vitamin C with bone growth and puppies are not capable of making their whole needs plus in times of stress etc bodies may need more!

ps please note that scurvy the skin disease is completely different from HOD!

Hpertrophic osteodystrophy is a painful condition affecting the growth plates in the joints of young, large/giant breeds. Because it is overrepresented in certain lines current thinking steers itself towards possible genetic predisposition. To date no scientific study has implicated vit c deficiency and ,infact, has been implicated in some cases whereby the owner has overdosed with it and interupted calcium metabolism futher exacerbating the problem. Treatment involves removal of all supplements, iv fluids and nsaids for pain relief. Most animals will generally 'grow out of it'.
       If you are feeding a complete diet or a holistic raw meat and bone diet then there should not be a problem. Sorry to sound so officious but I cannot sit backwatch somebody give potentially dangerous advice. I always advise my clients to phone referral centres and have a quick chat with a specialist in this case an orthopod if I'm not up to speed. Hope this helps.

*infact, has been implicated in some cases whereby the owner has overdosed with it and interupted calcium metabolism futher exacerbating the problem.*

Could you give us the link/s to read the study wereby overdosing with vitC has been implicated. I`ve not found/read anything yet that says you can overdose on it.

Christine, Spain.

http://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/dehod.html
http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/ortho-HOD.htm