I know the labrador standard is black, chocolate and yellow.........but I have heard you can also get silver and fox red..........is this true?

Fox red is a very dark yellow and not sure about the silver but imagine it is a dilute black. The dark yellow (called by some Fox Red) is within the breed standard - not sure about the silver if it is a dilute black the dogs may well have poor pigment/eye colour but if it is a pale cream then that like the red are just different ends of the yellow. Neither is worth any more than the more usual colour and the silver if it has poor pigment/eye colour is not worth as much as it is not to standard. Although if it is from good working stock expect to pay the going rate.

PS I am not a Lab expert but if I am wrong one (an expert) will put me and you right latter on

Jackie H is spot on about the Fox Reds, just a very dark yellow labrador. This shade seems to have become a lot more common in working bred labradors in the last few years, partly fashion and partly the influence of a few widely used and succesful stud dogs that happen to throw this colour. (Some Field Trial Champion labs get used A LOT at stud)

Silver labradors - more American nonsense I'm afraid. Someone posted this theme a while ago and a link made to an American kennel breeding this colour. I think they are supposed to be dilute chocolate rather than black, although having seen pictures of the dogs I would guess that there is a Weimeraner somewhere with a smile on his face! ;-) I've never seen silver labradors advertised in the UK.

PS I've absolutely nothing against Americans, but they do seem to have large numbers of breeders trying to create the 'weird and exotic', almost always at inflated prices.

Think the silver comes from dilute liver, (or choccie in labs) :D.  Certainly if you look up the origins of the weim and see photos in certain lights this woud appear to be true as well as looking at genetics.

Is that not why choccies have to be bred back to blacks from time to time to prevent the colour from degrading? 

It is doubtful that the silver colour of the weim when mated with any other colour would retain that colour.  All the weims X breeds offspring (unfortunately there are a few) have, without exception, been a lot darker than silver.

JMPOV

Tohme, Im sure your right. I doubt that they would be first crosses, but presumably in future generations the colour would reoccur providing the dilute gene was present in both parents. I was basing my theory on the dogs actually having the look and expression of a Weimeraner / lab mix rather than the colour. However, I could be wrong, they could just be ugly labradors ;-)

ROFLMAO :D

Hi all,

The so called 'silver' lab thing has been doing the rounds for ages.  The colour is , as suggested, a very dilute form of liver/chocolate.  On all pedigree papers, it is named as 'chocolate' and that is in fact what it is, diluted chocolate, probably first noticed when several generations of chocs were bred together, the colour getting lighter and lighter as they went along.  Most of the 'silver' labs have very pink eye rims and noses, and I have to admit I'm not at all keen, although I have spoken to a couple of very nice owners in the USA who obviously love their dogs, whetever the colour.

I'm afraid they would get laughed at if they turned up to a working test, or suchlike though, we like our labs the proper colours, black, yellow (including 'fox' yellow) and liver (chocolate).
If you want a silver dog, get a weimeraner!!

Ali :)

All I wanted to know was if the silver/foxred lab was real, I didn't mention in my first post that I was looking to get one, I didn't realise the silver lab is such a joke to you all. I am NOT an American or a breeder but I do love the lab as I am an ex-labrador owner, and even if I did decide to get another labrador I would choose it not on coat colour but on the normal loyal, loving and child friendly character they are known for.

I am not posting this to start any bad feelings, nor am I defending dog breeding for profit plus I am not anti-America (I know they can get a bit carried away sometimes (remember Dangerous Dave the stuntman)

love VM xxx

Dont forget the most popular colour, the golden labrador :)

Ho-ho, so funny Timhere.........not :rolleyes:

Children will play Liberty! ;)

Best wishes, John

Why dont you lighten up dear, it was a light hearted JOKE!! 

Mmmm, yes you are so unfunny Timhere.

Please don't call me 'Dear'....... I find it patronizing

Fox red is real enough. I had one which would qualify for that many years ago before anyone had coined the expression. I don't like them being called that for the reason which someone else mentioned, that someone will decide that they are "Rare" and start to try to breed them for profit with all the problems that a reduces gene pool brings. To me they are pure and simply yellow.

Silver Labradors are a different kettle of fish. I have never seen one in the UK although I know that they are being bred for in the US. Very obviously the same genetic constrictions apply to these, possibly even more so that the Fox Red!

Trouble is VM, there is always someone who will try to breed for them, try to convince people that they have to good of the breed in mind and of course charge well over the odds for them!

The Labrador is a wonderful breed which is in considerable danger from irresponsible breeding. Temper tantrums, dog to dog and dog to human aggression were never part of the Labrador nature. OCD seems on the increase, dwarfism, we now have it all! Yes, there are still typical happy outgoing Labs around but these days we are getting more problems than ever before and it makes me so sad and worried about the future.

Best wishes, John

John,
As well as some of the health issues, I'm starting to get a little concerned with the temperament in labradors, particularly from top trial breeding. The level of sensitivity appears to be increasing, and I understand that one of the most fashionable stud dogs is throwing some very very sensitive pups. To me the whole essence of a lab is a confident, bold individual that takes everything in its stride, I fear that we may start to lose this trait.

Although the labrador gene pool is large, the influence of a few stud dogs is so significant.

The same thing has happened with springers. Some of the most fashionable trialling lines are getting SO sensitive. My own pup needs ever so careful introduction to anything new. I must admit, I much prefer a dog that needs holding back than constant reassurance.

I believe you are right when you talk about the significant effect of a small number of stud dogs. Dogs from possibly five kennels form a very significant percentage of working puppies. Temperament is not as it was and not only in as far as sensitivity. There are some very nasty dogs getting around. They might get away with them in Field Trials but pile into a crowded game cart with dogs having to stand on dogs and the atmosphere is fraught!

From the health aspect I'm seeing OCD like never before! And this from puppies by well known dogs. Two young Labs that I personally know are literally crippled with HD, both by a well known stud dog whose services are advertised every week! Of course, I don't know the circumstances under which the puppies were brought up in their early days but I have to wonder. . . . . . . . . . . . . You know the stud dog I like, certainly not in the top ten stud dogs but to me, something maybe not in that top ten might just bring some new genes into play.

Best wishes, John

John,
Very tricky to get to the bottom of the negative influences of certain stud dogs. Many of the owners of Field Trial Champion dogs dont seem to be too fussy over the standard of bitches that their dogs mate, consequently they are going to sire a fair proportion of problems through no fault of their own.

Additionally there is a fair amount of rivalry between the handlers, which can lead to a level of negative publicity, so I usually try and give the dogs themselves the benefit of the doubt. However, certain trends do seem to be evident, but without getting to see a LOT of dogs, trials and tests its difficult to pick up the real picture. Unfortunately the dogs that often sire the best dogs seem to throw up problems as well.

One of my 'favourites' seem to have thrown a number of dogs that have suffered from epilepsy, and he himself died suddenly at a comparatively young age. Another fashionable sire that I have noticed a lot of triallers using seems to regularly throw very poor hips. - I wonder if its the same dog that you are referring to?

The influence of the Retriever Championships is huge. A win, or high placing at this event secures an extremely lucrative income for the owner of the dog. If any of these dogs carry faults then they are going to be passed on to hundreds or even thousands of pups!

I'll have to keep an eye out for progeny of your 'favourite'. Unfortunately being a working man with a young family restricts getting to many events.

As I'm working too I'm in a similar position to you in that I don't get to see anything like as much as I would like. Taking the puppy class at our training I get to see plenty of young puppies working and get to talk to the owners. You can often see a puppy with promise even if the owner is unable to fulfil that promise. Sometimes I feel so sad that the dog will never reach its potential.

Epilepsy is an odd one in that there can be so many causes. Poisons, growths, heart problems to name just three. Certainly in most breeds there has not been found a hereditary link but that does not apply to GSD's, Golden Retrievers and more to our point of view, Labradors. In those three breeds it has been proved conclusively that it CAN at least in some cases be hereditary. Having lived with an epileptic Labrador until just recently I am totally against the use of any dog which can be linked to this terrible ailment.

As far as the stud throwing HD, I personally only know 4 puppies sired by him and two of these have bad HD! That makes the odds bad in my eyes! I would certainly want to see plenty of good hips sired by this dog before I would use him. Yes, I know all about "Chinese Whispers" so I work on the assumption that if I can't see it, can't touch it and cant smell it then it possibly is not there!

I agree with you about the IGL Retriever Championship, like Crufts in the show dog world, it can have a lot to answer for! But again, we really do need these centres of excellence. Although the down side is that whereas Crufts have several thousand dogs qualify, and therefore quite a wide gene pool, in our championship the qualifiers are only just into double figures therefore the influence of these dogs, for better or worse, is much greater.

Best wishes, John

I certainly wouldnt want to see the end of the championships, I just wish that the breeding information was more easily obtainable and less based on hear-say. Mind you, the more information you have the more difficult the choice ends up being, particularly when trying to balance temperament, health, working ability and being competitive in trials and tests.

A Championship winner could easily sire a hundred litters before people start noticing a problem.

I'm not sure if the Labrador Retriever Club still does the hip score books, but they always make interesting reading. Some of the stud dogs had progeny scored from over a hundred different bitches, then you really get a picture of their influence on the breed.

It's not quite accurate to categorise silver and fox red together. Fox red is an acceptable colour in the breed standard (it is a dark yellow/ginger, not the colour of an Irish setter), whereas silver is entirely non-standard. Hope this clears things up a bit.
:)

Hi VM, sorry but you seem to have been caught up in an on-going discussion regarding lab colours :rolleyes: Please do not think it is anything you have said, it's just the timing.... Anyway, Welcome to Champdogs, and feel free to ask any question you like!!

liberty :)

thanks.

I have now seen a pic of a silver lab......they look nice and are said to be normal lab char.

My last dog was a yellow lab bitch.....I am now hooked on labradors big time :0)

Hi John, if you want to see how a typical happy outgoing lab behave, then look at my post in idle chat, Bailey is for sale. I wonder if this will put people off labs. :)

Kay