I have a Stafford bitch. She is quite exceptional in confirmation and temprement and comes from show winning stock. Without being biased, I am sure she would have done very well in shows at championship level if I had shown her. I have not shown her because she has overshot mouth of about 5 - 6mm and I know she would heavily penalised in the ring. In all other areas she is very good and her movement is one of the best I have ever seen (legs are completely parallel coming and going).

My question is should I breed her? I know alot of breeders will think overshot mouth, serious fault, forget it, but I think all dogs have some faults but on balance the end result could be worth the effort.

I'm afraid if her mouth is as bad as you say, then you can't really claim she is exceptional in conformation. Many breeders consider bad mouths to be a serious fault, as they are notoriously difficult to breed out. If she is as good as you believe, then why not have a shot at showing her to find out if judges think the same? At least you will get some specialist advice.
:)

Would this not be akin to saying although my Hungairan Vizsla is green, in all other respects she is exceptional and therefore is it ok to breed from her?

By breeding from a bitch with a fault you run the risk of putting further dogs/bitches into the world with the same fault. If you truly love the breed you should be wanting to better it

they all have their faults...so why does an overshot mouth become more of a problem than other faults like a stright stiffle,cow hocks etc etc etc.the perfect dog has not been bred and many of the greats were out of mdogs with differing degrees of faults,i remeber a dog with around 15 cc's that was from an undershot dam.the mouth is one fault no more and no less,personally i think it no worse than any other.

Hope there are not too many breeders who think like this, any fault has to be assessed on 2 things the first the degree and the second the difficulty in repairing the damage you have cause by breeding an animal with a particular fault. But then we are individuals and have to live by our own moral code.

The problem with mouth faults against many other more cosmetic faults is that they can often be painful for the dog as there are other factors to consider such as teeth placement, drooling, eating, chewing, panting etc etc

Why would you want to breed when the chances are you could subject a puppy to an unfortunate life? Plus with the current trend for litigation, you could be on dodgy ground if any pups you sold had hereditary defects

Staffies aren't my breed, but when assessing a breeding proposition I ask myself the following :

- Could I fairly easily go out and buy a pup that is more likely to 'make the grade' than the proposed litter? (If yes then why bother to breed?)

- Would someone that is really knowledgeable about the breed consider buying a pup from this litter, knowing the faults and good points of the proposed sire and dam? (If no then why bother to breed?)

I've no experience of how easy it is to breed out faulty mouths, or the overall standard of staffies, but I think the above questions would suit any breed.

havoc good points and they are similar to my own views ,which is why i have only bred 4 litters in 22 years in my breed.
of course severity of faults has to be looked at and imo a slightly over or undershot mouth causes no physical harm to the dog and certainly mas no bearing on the dog being able to bite anything,personally i have never bred from such an animal and probably wouldn't (my choice),it just gets my goat when people whine on about someone doing just such a thing and then go and breed there good mouthed bitches with many other faults which are just as serious in my opinion.the first person that comes on here and tells me they have never bred to an animal with faults will either be the most kennel blind breeder around or a liar.

but arent you supposed to breed to better the line ?

Im not a breeder, have never bred and have no intentions of but I thought the whole issue was to get a dog and bitch of the highest standards

are overshot mouths hereditary or just bad luck? I don't know the answer but if it was hereditary I would think twice.

yes you are but you just said in a previous post

"By breeding from a bitch with a fault you run the risk of putting further dogs/bitches into the world with the same fault. If you truly love the breed you should be wanting to better it"

so if that is the case and knowing every dog has a fault or 2 then how do we go from there, seems some faults are acceptable and some aren't  ,why ???

Well although the KC does not have the same view on faults as the FCI, eg minor, major, disqualifying faults, some faults must be harder to breed out than others and for anything other than a well established breed, surely there are enough above average let alone excellent examples of potential breeding stock available not to bother with those with obvious shortcomings; it is easy to put something in, not so easy to breed it out, faultwise anyhow.................

Must admit I have never seen a Staff with an overshot mouth, undershot many many times, but not overshot.
Dawn.

well like I said Im not a breeder- so what faults do breeders see as acceptable then?

lel,every dog has some fault or other so every breeder that breeds any dog is justifying that fault aren't they.something like a slightly over or undershot jaw is far less of a liability breeding wise as a dog with a dodgy temperament and believe me i have seen some champions that were used quite a bit at stud that were human aggresive.seems mouth is a real no/no it seems and a dog could be perfect except for a mouth fault but the good mouthed dog stood in the ring with fly away ears,straight stiflle,cow hocks and movement like a lame camel will beat it more often than not.incidently i have 3 dogs and all have scissor bites if you were wondering :-)

According to a guy at our breed club the figures are meant to be 1 in every 4 SBT puppies is born with a under or overshot mouth so it is a problem that need eradicating plus it is an obvious fault when a judge opens a dogs mouth. Straight stifles and splayed feet can be hidden from a judge more easily so they won't get punished as much as mouth faults. Saying that I have seen a dog who is very close to the breed standard and if his mouth would have been spot on I believe that he'd have been a Ch easily.

If a dog has a fault then you would use a dog to compliment this to breed it out as such, but if it is hereditory and a serious fault then it shouldnt be bred from - thats my understanding anyway :)

Hello.

I am not a breeder but have Staffords in my blood so to speak. I would not breed from a bitch with a overshot mouth. We are trying to eradicate such problems not add to them.  

And I think you have answered your own question "guest" when you said

>>>>>   I am sure she would have done very well in shows at championship level if I had shown her. I have not shown her because she has overshot mouth of about 5 - 6mm and I know she would heavily penalised in the ring.<<<<<

So why would you want to breed from her?
1.To enable you to show the pups 2. 0r just to sell them to pet homes?

If the first is why then who would buy a pup from a dam who mouth was overshot - not I, I am afraid.
If the second why should a pet home have a pup not worthy of the showring. Who would buy, not I, I am afraid.

Look back to your bitches breeder and assess their stock why does your bitch have a bad mouth - if you like their stock then do your homework and buy in a better pup. And start with the best foundation bitch you can get, not the first one thats available.

Karen

I know no dog is perfect and that even if it was, it wouldnt necesarily breed perfect puppies anyway - same way Champs can breed pups with faults ( and do) :rolleyes:

<<<the figures are meant to be 1 in every 4 SBT puppies is born with a under or overshot mouth >>

so therefore breeders should be trying to correct the faults surely- thats a very high figure 

i do not believe this estimate for a minute.its quite rare to see an over or undershot puppy in the litters i have viewed

Can give you the breeders details if you'd like to speak to him about the figures. Undershot and overshot came about in SBT where people were breeding for head size and not thinking if the head goes upwards or outwards then the jaw will move aswell. That is why some of the SBT's with the nicest heads have mouth problems.

if he has not seen every puppy from every litter born then he doesn't know the figures,simple as that.maybe he is breeding 1 in 4 over or undershot but i know many that don't

I have a young shiba inu bitch who was given to my daughter by a friend of mine.She was bought in as a show/breeding bitch but has a slight mouth fault...no where near the degree of the bitch in question.She has 2 bottom teeth that are JUST infront of her top ones.This is the reason she was given to my daughter..on the condition that she was speyed.
To breed from a bitch with a serious mouth fault is a very irrisponsible thing to do IMO ....if you love the breed you wouldn't do it.
Archer

Well said Archer :)

Karen

Dentition and mouth conformation do appear to be hereditary and are very difficult to breed out - look at the Royal family ;) or any other family for that matter. 

The other point is that terriers have been bred to catch and despatch vermin and they do this with their teeth and jaws.  An under or overshoot of 5-6 mm is quite a gap and could prevent the dog doing the job it was bred to do in addition to causing discomfort to the dog.  In the show ring terriers usually have their mouths examined for this reason and although I have no experience of staffys, a bedlington would definately be marked down for this.

ive had staffords for a year or two or more now and i can say that i have never before heard that 1 in 4 staffys are born over/undershot
perhaps they are - but ive seen a lot of puppys and cant say that i can back those figures up in any way
there are far more pups born with hair lip/cleft pallet, if only people would admit to it rather than hide it away
but thats a different thread altogether

i think that the reason that so many people/judges seem to be hung up on a mouth fault is that it is probably one of the easiest faults to spot when going over a dog and possibly the first one that is noticed

"Guest" says that they think their dog would have been a Champion if shown yet didnt show the dog because they knew the dog would be heavily penalised in the ring if they had ?????????????? - i think they answered their own question there if they only take the time to think about what they have said

i think you have to look at the whole picture
as everyone keeps saying - no dog is perfect
and no dog ever will be
but if the dog with the poor mouth is exceptional in every other way (in the potential breeders mind) then surely its better to use that dog instead of a dog that is merely average or below but with a good mouth

one of the purposes of breeding is to improve the breed in question
which in turn, is a long term process and not something acheived overnight
sometimes you have to use a dog or bitch with a fault in one area that has other exceptional qualities to improve other areas

Confusious say "sometimes the end justifies the means"

Z

>> i think that the reason that so many people/judges seem to be hung up on a mouth fault is that it is probably one of the easiest faults to spot when going over a dog and possibly the first one that is noticed <<

What makes you think that, true the Staffie is presented head first in the ring but no one would only look at the teeth, everything is taken into consideration and any dog with a fault should cause the owner to think very carefully before breeding from any dog with a construction or temperament fault, IMO it should only be consider if otherwise the dog is exceptional, and even then it would require a lot of research and monitoring to see how the progeny was affected.

I know that there is no such thing as a perfect dog, but some faults are more likely to be passed on to the offspring with, in some cases, an increase in the fault. Add to that the fact that some inherited faults are in themselves more difficult to remove and more likely to be indicative of a bigger problem; miss-aligned teeth = incorrect jaw structure = faulty bone growth and the greatest care should be taken to understand what you are gifting to the breed for future years. Miss-marked coats or poor set ears are one thing, faulty bone structure is another.

Even in the short time I have been judging my own breed I have noticed some structural changes happen, it is surprising how quickly a fault will move through a breed and in some cases it becomes so common you find yourself accepting it as the norm. In my breed there is some excuse as we are very small in numbers in a numerically large breed there is not.

Jackie,

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - in a numerically large breed like staffys there is no point and no reason to breed from a dog/bitch with a constructional fault.  Bad ear set/wrong coat colour do not affect the way the dog functions or its quallity of life but poor jaw construction definately has the potential for causing pain and discomfort not only to the dog/bitch in question but also to their descendants for many generations to come.  I find it difficult to believe that any animal in such a numerically large breed could be that important to any breeding programme.

Anyone interested in canine dentition may be interested in the booklet "Dog Owner's Guide To Proper Dental Care"  written by Kenneth Lyon DVM & Lowell Ackerman DVM and edited by Susanna Penman BVSc MRCVS  Price @ £2

dill the stafford is a terrier in name only,its original job was not primarily as a vermin dog and an under or overshot (as long as its not severe) would not have hampered the dog in anyway at its original job.
ziggar, i agree with your post entirely, too much is made of the mouth and other things are overlooked,i have seen my share of poor champions (one i saw virtually walked on its hocks !!!)  and also nice dogs that could win nothing because a few teeth were out of place.i think dogs should be penalised for severity of faults and not just what it is in vogue at the time to knock.
incidentally it is a well known fact that 1 of the most used staffords at stud in the country is throwing a large % of undershot pups yet top breeders are still using him regularly,personally i wouldn't (i don't like him) but thats my choice so why are so many rushing to use the animal knowing the climate in which the undershot pup is treated in the show ring,is it a case of they will take the best and the mouth fault pups will go to pet homes (i bet for top £££ too) ? some of the most well known breeders and judges in breeds can also be the most unethical i have found.in this case i feel they think the dog is so good they will put up with the odd mouth fault but each to their own, they have to stand behind their stock nobody else.

But the thing is Cooper not everyone who uses the dog may know/care that he throws "bad" mouths. Because a lot of people  are just dazzled by the pedigree and the winning and/or the money to be made from the pups.Rather than the % of dodgy mouthed pups he throws. Sadly not everyone does their homework before buying/breeding do they :(

Karen

Guest 5-6 mm is a lot on a scissor bite.    Being a terrier the bite is very important.  Putting health faults out of the conversation as they are never ever accepted in a breeding program, the bite fault is probably one of the biggest no no's in terriers.  At the end of the day only you can decide but it is a genetic fault so will represent anyway.   Some do argue that is is better to be over than under  but the amount over is a fair bit. If it were me and I thought she was a good as you say I would have maybe been inclined to show her just to see what judges thought of her really. If she is really that good then she could only be beaten by a dog as good as her but with a better bite. Hope that makes sense.