Hi everyone
Some of you might have my previous post about Sparky seeming to be giving out wrong vibes when out on walks. We've had another incident again this morning (we're up to the fourth now - each time a GSD). This one was walking along quite calmly - passing other dogs without any problems, then caught sight of Sparky and just flew at him. It was all teeth baring and no action, and Sparky, being the big wuss that he is, just ran and hid in the bushes, but I just wondered if anyone else's dog has a problem with a specific breed? Sparky has never shown any aggression towards another dog, and bounds up to other breeds with no problem, once I tell him he can go and play. He also plays as rough or gently as the other dogs want to with no problem, but he has now started to freeze when he sees a GSD, he comes round to the opposite side of me, so that he is walking to heel, but as far away from the approaching dog as possible. He walks more slowly as we approach - still turns his head away, but today went into collie pose as he was walking past - not going into a down, but walking with his head low. Do GSDs generally find this threatening? Is this why it keeps happening?
I don't suppose there is much I can do about this problem, but would be interested to hear any comments.
Thanks
Tracy

Not sure from your post whether your dog is a collie or not; if it is then some of them have an extremely strong eye and can therefore can intimidate other dogs who, do not like prolonged eye contact as it is seen as a challenge/threat.  Hence why it is important and events, training clubs etc to prevent eyeballing as what appears to be "unprovoked" aggression is, in fact, a reaction to being eyed up.

I had a Springer  few years ago that always seemed to be attacked by Labradors. Yellow ones. Her best friend was a black Lab, so we know it wasn't a Lab thing. It soon became obvious to us that we had to avoid yellow Labs as she went into attack mode first at the sight of one :( She didn't like hairy GSD's either, after one attacked her. She was the gentlest dog I'd ever known, very submissive, so we don't know why it happened.

I have an experienced freind who has woned collies, and GSD's for 30 plus years, and they so not generally get on unless brought up together from Pups.

The GSD's find the strong eye a threat/challenge, and also dislike the fizzing about when playing.

Most of her dogshave been rescues, so this makes it harder.  Her husband has the shepherds, and she the collies, and they have a few odd ones too.

Now their Elkhound gets on fine with both breeds.  She plays like a GSD, but as she likes her collie friends puts up with their hyper ways, and isn't threatened by the eye contact being rather full of herself.

Now her half brothwer does Obedience shows, and we dound when he was young that when we went to Confromation shows that he tok ages to settle at a show.  We worked out that he felt very uncomfortable when at Obedience shows because of the way a lot of collies Eyeball, Crouch etc, all body language that could be seen as a threat.  He is now much happier around shows, as he has matured, and is no longer lowest in his home pack, and that has made him more relaxed.

My GSDs & ISDS BC's have been mixed as Adults & puppies Never had any problems & they played as a group of 11 GSDs & 3 BC's at one stage.

It can be a case of breeding I never had KC BCs or non German working bred(Schutzhund & stock)GSDs. The GSDs were never fazed by the BCs activities & have had upto half a dozen playing tuggy with some huge tug ropes They did split into males verus females on the tuggies tho

I have a friend who has BCs & GSDs & does obedience with both & never has problems but she too has German working bred GSDs & ISDS bred BCs.

I do think it is a matter of breeding & training & having a good dog Alpha leader-my BC's have never pushed to be Alpha & my Alpha has always been a female

Elkhounds are a good mixer breed I have found, I made friends at shows year ago when a Beardie I was handling mugged a Elkhound with a very unpronouncable show name started Yg I think, the handler was very understanding & the Elkhound was very willing to responnd & play-not what we both wanted in the BIS puppy ring but the dogs enjoyed it-could it be because they still retain a lot of the working instincts ? The problem with the beardie was that he played with another friends Keeshonden so I think he saw the Elkhound as a bald Keeshond ;)

My Cavaliers love Malamutes after being mothering by a gorgeous female belonging to friends-they now see any dog that looks slightly like a Mal(basically any bigger than them dogs with pointed ears)as a friend & my friends Mals go all sloppy at the sight of a Blenheim Cavalier

G.S.D.'s and Border Collies often don't see eye to eye because of the age-old rivalry between them about who is the best sheep herder.  ;)

Thats odd Sally I have kept GSDs & BCs together for over 35 years without any problems between them & of course they both work sheep in totally different styles

However some colours of dogs seem to attract adverse reactions, my nearly all black BC has been attacked by other BC's & Labs & Goldens from all directions without him "eyeing" any of them , yet my late tri colour who was very flashily marked never caused the same reaction.& he had a particularly strong "eye"

I used to help show an All Black GSD that regularly had certain gundog breeds react badly these included English Setters which seemed to hate her with a passion. Luckily she had such a good temperament that she never reacted to the attacks & was never affected by seeing the dogs.

Corgis(Pems)seemed to hate my Brown Beardies as on several occasions whilst in mixed classes & BIS/BIG line ups attacks were launched

Out of interest what colour/breed is yoir dog ?

Moonmaiden - I was joking.  I know they work sheep in totally different styles.  That is why they argue about whose method is best.

Sorry I thought this was a serious question

& BTW I have worked sheep with GSDs & BC's at the same time

<<Sorry I thought this was a serious question

Then I apologise for my frivolity  :(

:D :D :D @ Sally

Strange you should say that my working sheepdogs both show a dislike of GSD's. With one I know the cause is being attacked by one at 12 weeks odd but Satin never had that experience has not picked up on Willows dislike as they are exercised in seperate groups and yet still dislikes GSDs, when I asked her breeder about this they said her mother was the same so her breeding must have had something to do with this. My registered girls arn't bothered and will play with any dogs.

My old lab detested all JRTs because so many had attacked her. She wouldn't retaliate, but screamed in pain when they were biting her rump. Another of my dogs hated Pembroke corgis after being bitten by both the ones he ever met.

Dogs aren't fools. They can recognise breeds about as well as we can. And just like us, they develop their prejudices.

I have heard that black dogs are more likely to be 'picked' on by other dogs because their features and expression is not as easy to see. It sounds logical. Has your collie got a black head?
Amos

As most of you will know I bought a boerboel puppy for it's calm, even temperament.I am only now realising how good a trait this is.So far this year I have boarded a ridgeback,poodles,a collie,2 rotties,a bichon,a min pin and jack russell,another boerboel,a wee mongrel many times,a pom,a beagle and have some spaniels coming soon and she has been fantastic,some of them have been a little growly the first day but Raz just leaves them until they are ready to play.I feel so lucky and honoured to have such a well behaved dog in my household and yes it was very hard work doing all the socialising from an early age and this will continue as more boarders come to stay.She has spoiled me for any other breed now so I don't think there will be any more Akitas.Sandra.

Thanks for all your replies. So many of them make perfect sense. Sparky is a black and white BC, with a white collar, but very little white on his head, just a thin strip of white down his nose. His eyes are brown, so the comments about not being able to read him make sense. He isn't eyeballing as we get close, though. He used to, but I think he could be starting to pick up on the fact that this is getting him into bother - he was actually turning his head away the last two times it's happened, although he would definitely have been staring from a distance, as he freezes when he sees another dog (could have been a pointer in a previous life ;)). I suppose I'm just going to have to accept the fact that this is going to happen and change my route when we see a GSD approach :( .

Thanks again
Tracy

I would serously try to find a very laid back BC friendly GSD, it could be that Sparky is showing fear in body language that the GSD's you met pick up on. GSDs are very perceptive about body langauge both dog & human. I had a super GSD who only ever  growled at one person, I found out later the man was a drug user & when high got very violent, my boy only saw him once at a distance but my boys first owner had been attacked by a drug user when he was a puppy & obviously he had picked up on the guys body language.

My BC has been badly bitten by a GSD(not one of mine)in his ear, because he regularly played roughly with my GSDs he did not react badly & it never affected his attitude to any GSD I don't think he realized the bitch that had bitten him had gone right through his ear-unless he thought it was a love bite

If you see a GSD or any dog coming towards you you could try turning away & playing with a toy with Sparky so that he sees other dogs meaning he getting a game of say tuggy to he will not freeze when he sees a dog but look to you to play-just a thought

I was just going to ask if this was worth a try, Moonmaiden (the friendly GSD thing). Unfortunately, the only GSD at our obedience club is a very big, very vocal rescue chap, with a horrific background, poor thing, and major issues with all dogs - not much help there. I might try the park again, and try to get chatting to someone with a GSD onlead (one of these days I'll get arrested as the mad blonde woman that stalks everyone :-D). The game idea is a good one too,- Sparky needs as much heelwork practise as he can get, so doing this when we pass a GSD might help; he's getting much better at watching me as we walk along now, especially if I have his tuggy toy in my hand.

This is worse than my first child starting school!
Tracy

Using the tuggy is a good idea as he will have to look at you to play

I used to have a stooge GSD who was very dark(almost a bi colour)He was used a lot for dogs who diliked black/dark dogs In all his life he only ever growled once & never retaliated to any dog, he was a successful show/working dog & a dream to live with. He adored my collies & would look longingly at BC's that ignored him he was never able to uderstand why they did not want to play with him, he loved tuggies too & had a very small one he used to be shown with in breed

I'm sure once Sparky relaxes when he sees dogs the barking etc from the GSDs will stop. A lot of GSDs will bark to invite to play & if they don't get the right reaction can interpret the response as agression or hostility. I see it quite a lot at some GSD Breed shows. It's a pity that the owmers don't let their dogs socialize & train properly, obedience GSDs seem to have very few hang ups around other breeds.

Yes he has & I knew this would be a problem with some breeds but oddly enough most times my dogs has been attacked it has been from behind or the side with no previous eye contact

The worst attack was by a working bred yellow lab that came from behind us & pinned him down by the back of his neck Luckily my boy just laid still & I got the lab off by grabbing his male bits & collar than booting him but the bum & fended him off with my shepherds crook(I was on the way to work sheep with a bitch belonging to a friend) If my boy had struggled the vet reckoned he would have been dead, after this my boy wore a pinch collar with the prongs on the outside(as the turkish shepherd dogs wear to protect the dogs from wolves)as the lab was allowed to roam freely in the neighbour & could appear at anytime.

Its funny, my border collie seemed to instinctively dislike GSD's even though she has never had any problem with them. My friend's collie is the same, but is fine with other dogs. Meg sounds similar to sparky so perhaps this is part of the problem.

I am definitely of the opinion that the reaction is linked to the breeding & socialization of the dogs. My boys never reacted badly to any breed, but my remaining boy isn't keen on Black labs since being bitten in the face by one as he was walking past, he's is such a wimp he always puts me between him & any agressor

Junior my boston has problems with Rotties, prob because when he was younger my friends Rottie wasn't very good to him so we kept them apart :( Rather then that he just whines when he see's other dogs :)

I have an 8 month old Great Dane pup, called Honey, and we always seem to have problems with little dogs - especially Jack Russell Terriers  - but generally all terriers and Dachsunds, other toy breeds, etc too. Not saying that they are horrible dogs or anything but they do always seem to have a problem with her and will often attack her, even if she is just walking past them. I think they feel threatened by her size - and she doesn't help things by being a very boisterous puppy! I get quite nervous when we see little dogs out on our walks now and I know she must be picking up on that but I just get anxious waiting for something nasty to happen! Plus, I htnk she is starting to feel wary of small dogs now.
And to make things worse, Honey is a very confident puppy who will defend herself if she is attacked, rather than just submit. So then everyone thinks that she is the one attacking the small dog!! I get really upset when this happens and other owners give me dirty looks and act like Honey is a vicious dog - when actually we are on-leash and their dogs are the ones off-leash and the ones who came up to Honey in the first place. I try to get Honey away from them but once they are under her feet, it's very difficult. Last time, we had 2 terriers rush up to us in a park and start getting under her feet. She of course thought they were playing and started jumping around, to which they started snarling and squealing - and their owner started screaming as if Honey was attacking her precious babies! She eventually managed to call them back to her but it left me very indignant and upset.

I wish Honey could be more submissive when other dogs snarl at her, even if they are smaller than her - is there any way I can teach her to be more submissive? I know it's only natural for her to defend herself if she is attacked but the problem is, because she is bigger, she will always be blamed. Perhaps if she was more submissive to start with, the other little dogs wouldn't feel threatened and start snarling at her - and then she wouldn't retaliate and then there wouldn't be a dog fight?? So CAN I teach her to be more submissive?
Any advice or suggestions would be really appreciated!
Hsin-Yi

No, I don't think so, and even if you could it may well backfire - dogs which are submissive often get bullied! It's an unfortunate fact that small dogs often (though by no means always) feel intimidated by larger ones - I've had my dogs attacked by JRTs, corgis, chihuahuas (the chi owners were infuriating because they thought it was funny! :rolleyes: ).

Honey sounds lovely and perfectly normal, and very restrained. As she matures she'll become more sedate, but that will only happen in its own good time. In the meantime, try to relax! (Easier said than done, I know!)
:)