I met someone recently who had the most beatiful dog's - they had lovely glossy coats, pearly white teeth (aged 5) and general wellbeing...Her secret?  She feeds raw!  I spoke to her for 8 hours about dog's coats and the importance of diet and came to the conclusion that my dog is missing out!  Yesterday she had her first raw chicken wings, I was a little nervous, but Lana chomped away on them and loved it!!!  Admittedly I have some more reading to do this evening and in theory I know what to buy in this weekend but I thought I'd get some tips from 'those in the know' on what you feed raw to your dog's - Thanks
Sarah :)

Goodness from the heading I thought you meant personally. Can't help you with the food though as I have never had the courage to try, did reads some books on nutrition and it seemed more than I could deal with, so you have my admiration and hope you sort it all out ok.

Welcome aboard Sarah! :D   Bess has been on raw food for about 10 months now and I haven't regretted changing one bit and Bess absolutely loves it. :)

Kath.

Fed raw for over 3 years, anything and everything :D

I've read many post regarding raw (barf) with interest, but find i'm a little weary of trying it incase my puppy chokes!
At 16 weeks will she be able to cope with raw chicken wings etc or am i being over protective? (just like with my kids) :-)

Have fed raw for 12 years now and not regretted it.  Had previously fed a complete food and was down the vets all the time with one problem after another. Since going raw I can count on my one hand how many times i have been to the vets and spaying (by choice) was twice.   The dogs are more contented after their meals and whatever I put down it is gone in seconds.

I spy on Lana with her chicken wings!  I snood her up and she knows what is coming - she has been on it for two days - and she is more enthusiastic about feeding times and already her poo is 'cleaner' and crumbly/chalky.  She licks her wings while I am there but when I dissapear she starts chomping and appears to really enjoy it!  We are off to the local butcher tomorrow to see what he can supply us with...I just need to sort some veggies too!

Tohme

I have fed 'almost raw' for about 5 years. I have always lightly cooked the veg on the premise that, if stomach contents are indeed consumed, would they not in effect be partially 'cooked' by the digestive juices of the prey animal?

Sorry not Tohme here, I just thought I'd stick me nose in ;) :D  I would say that the stomach contents are partially "digested" and not partially "cooked" and that is a big difference. Cooking can destroy the enzymes needed for digestion so the best way to feed veg is to blitz it in a food processor or at least finely grate it. This helps to break it down like chewing and digestion does,  dogs jaws can't move from side to side to chew vegetation properly like their prey can :)

Kath.

Just a thought, and I may be way off-beam here, but wouldn't the stomach contents be at blood-heat (which, following a hunt, would be well over 100 degrees farenheit)? Ideally shouldn't raw food be fed at that temperature?

Ocassionally I do too much & freeze the processed veg but defrost it before feeding it. Also dogs who live in cold climates who bury their food & dig it up or come acroos buried food would eat it frozen :)

Christine, Spain.

I have been giving fagan his chicken wings frozen as he is teething so it soothes his gums and it takes him longer to eat them

Christine, how much do you think i should be feeding him per day ? he is a 15 week nold Irish Setter Pup :)

I believe it`s about 2/3% of their boddy weight, first time for me weaning pups on raw :) I`d think 2/3 of wings/MEATY bones & about 12oz-1lb of meat per day. What weight is he now & what will he be when adult.

Christine, Spain.

My older one, when we first got him, happily munched down a frozen chicken kiev - he didn't seem to mind the temperature :D

Daisy

I'm just thinking about the cooking-bit from an academic/scientific point of view. If the stomach contents (and the rest of the prey animal too, of course) are at blood-heat, doesn't that mean that it is partially cooked?

I know they don't mind what temperature the food is, or how fresh (judging by the manky half-rabbit corpse my lot found this morning! )
:)

It's an interesting point - one that I've thought about a bit, as I seem to serve up the dogs' meat about 50% of the time straight out of the fridge :( I do try to get it out in advance to 'warm' up a bit - but don't always have time. It doesn't seem to have done them any harm and they don't mind if it's a bit cold so I have given up worrying :)

Daisy

Mid summer here so leaving meat out to reach room temp is impossible!! Veggies I mostly do as I`m dishing meat out so they get fresh but I don`t worry bout either.  :) I do put v hot water over it tho when really cold

Christine, Spain.

Jg, I wouldn't say that blood heat was making it partially cooked, otherwise wouldn't our bodies, being at blood heat, be partially cooked too? :)

I tend to agree though that food is better warm than cold (though cold won't harm them) and I always feed Bess's meals warm  (I hate cold food myself, I even warm up ice ceam till it's mushy :D) 

I always thaw/warm Bess's food in hot water, I find that better than leaving it ages at room temp... less chance of bugs multiplying and Bess isn't spending ages whining for it! :D

Kath.

I was just thinking that if someone served my vegetables at 100 deg F I wouldn't think it was exactly raw ...
I was just thinking about definitions (that's my paid job, after all, to be exact with words!) and I'm not trying to knock the feeding system at all! My dogs get fed all sorts (not liquorice ones!), raw, cooked and commercial dried, so I'm not knocking anyone.
:)

Would food cook at 100 deg J/G or just be warmed up? It`s got to be over a certain temp before the composition of it changes surely :)Depend on the type of food, suppose a lettuce would wilt were as a cabbage wouldn`t!!?? Don`t feel like taxing my brain just right, it`s being slowly wilted by the heat over here......lol :D :D

Christine, Spain.

It's not earth-shatteringly important anyway - just idle pondering! Lucky you with the weather, Christine - we've had to have the heating on in the evening!
:)

You`ve got us all pondering now J/G :D Thing with the files on a lot of yahoo lists is they don`t always give the web address & they don`t always allow you to post them elsewhere..........
We`re a bit cooler now, had a heatwave & some parts went up to 48c :eeK: do feel for you tho with the bad weather, think I read the other day was coldest day in JUly ever!!!!! Just think of your lovely green lawns tho :D

christine, Spain.

48c??!! 30 is plenty for me!

Thats what registered in Toledo last wk J/G Down here only round the late 30c`s- 40c`s, still brain frying blistering hot tho lol. They say we`ve broke records already goodness knows how hot it`s going to get, so glad we got air condition tho ;) :D I`d actually moved the pups into new house just before the heat wave so they were in heaven!!!

Christine, Spain.

I'm not knocking you either Jg, honestly :)  I don't know what the definition of cooking is, i.e. at what specific temperature a vegetable could be said to have started cooking but I just think that it would be more than 100F.  If my veggies were served at 100F I think I'd wonder why they were hot but raw. :D

It's quite interesting really...time to get a pan, water, veggies and a thermometer I think!

Kath.

I predict a Blue Peter experiment coming on!

LOL .... D'you think I'll get a badge. :D

My 8 week old puppy LOVES her chicken wings and eats them with such gusto that I am glad we switched over to raw with Huddy a few months ago :)

Another raw convert here - have been feeding it to my older dog for 4 years and younger one since she was a pup. I also thought it would be a lot of hassle when I first heard about it, but once you get into a routine it couldn't be easier. No fussy dogs - bowls licked clean in seconds - healthy, fit dogs - what could be better :D

Daisy

im just changing Fagan to raw, the commercial stuff just wasnt agreeing with him and he was always hungary and so skinny.  Ive started off with AMP stuff and chicken wings and in just a week you can seeb he has put on weight, but we are off to the butchers in a bit to see what he can supply us with, I have to hook out my  never used foodn processor too for his veggies :)

Been feeding raw for just on 3yrs now & dogs couldn`t be better! Got my 7wk old pups on it too, ch/wings, whole quails, lamb ribs, meats & just started veggies few dys ago, they`re ever so contented. Going to try them with drumsticks today or tomorrow :D
Veggies when fed raw need to be processed first so dogs can digest them, tho you can freeze them first as this also breaks celulose down but never tried that myself, never got room in freezers for it.

Christine, spain.

Trying not to be too gross - but a dog throw-up, if it occurs an hour or so after a meal, looks not to be 'raw'. This chimes with JG's post about the temperature of food in a prey animal's stomach, or indeed the rest of the food animal. Fresh-killed meat is warm/hot, the remnants of food in the stomach & intestines  must also be warm/hot, and presumably some of the enzymes etc. have been absorbed into the organs, muscles, etc. So, unless the canine eats a whole animal the vegetable matter which is eaten must be deficient in the nutrients which we hope to supply by feeding raw veg?

I would be interested in any references to scientific research which shows how efficiently, or otherwise, dogs can digest & benefit from the ingestion of totally raw veg. Not trying to be contentious - genuinely interested in just how beneficial raw veg is to a canine diet.

J/G & S/Boxer, would take me a long time to type all the technical info you`re asking but if you join any of the raw feeding groups you`ll find the answers in the files section or archives :)

Christine, Spain.

Thank you Christine, will do some poking around.

Thats ok S/B :) iF you join the one below & ask your question to the list owner, he`ll be able to answer it fully, theres not much he doesn`t know & also be able to give you the links for any articles on it. I`ve found loads of styff in groups files/links/archives.

Christine Spain.

Thanks Christine, but my computer has a problem with Yahoo, so I'm afraid I'll just have to scratch around picking up info where I can!
:)

I don't exactly feed raw but I do add things to the dogs kibble, like grated cheese or corned beef or pilchards, herring, kippers, sardines, grated carrot, chicken (cooked) and rice, ham, and for supper a half tin of rice pudding, though not every night, maybe twice a week. Is this ok? She is 17 weeks old and on four meals a day. I mean is the food I'm adding to make it tastier for her ok? Havent' tried the chicken wings yet cos I'm scared but my older dog eats them and she also gets the above with her dried food. Also, when I do braising steak for tea is it ok to give her some of it raw, oh and raw mince?
sorry to ask so many questions :)

Dee

Any raw meat is fine...mine always get the beef trimmings when I do stew or braising steak and always get a bit of mince too.
Archer

Thank you archer, I've only ever fed tinned food to Missie but since coming on here I've realised that she's 'missed out' so to speak, so now she has what Maddie has and although it took a while for her to change over, she's very fussy about what you give her just in case you are trying to 'poison' her, you know the type, sniff, sniff, lick sniff, and your arm aches while you wait for her to take it, I'm sure she looks better on a mixed variety.

Dee

I have one like that and 3 that take your fingrs off aswell as the meat!!! LOL
I have been feeding an all raw diet for about 3 months now and am very pleased with the results. I was a bit nervous at first but am getting more and more confident. I buy most of my meats ready minced and then give chicken wings,pigs trotters,ribs etc aswell.I also have started making raw veges into a pulp and freezing and then defrosting and mixing with the minced meats.
My boys have never looked better or enjoyed their food more....and thats what matters!
Archer

Those sound fine to me Dee,  it's good to offer a wide variety of foods. :)

Kath.

Just caught up with the responses here

Puppies need 10% of their body weight per day of raw or 2 - 3% of the projected adult bodyweight per day.

As for veggies, this is a very contentious issue; most species do not touch stomach contents, but they DO often eat the intestines.

It is not heat that "cooks" the vegetables but the acidity of the stomach's contents, hence why most animals would not touch the stomach it is too acidic to be attractive. 

Actual vegetable consumption in carnivores is, in fact very low, not more than 10% of the whole diet and a lot is "accidental" eg ingestion of grasses etc whilst meat is on floor being ripped up, faeces, etc etc as well as serendipitous findings of fallen ripe fruit and sweet veggies such as carrots etc.

Freezing and/or crushing say in a juicer/blender breaks down the cellular walls and makes the macro nutrients available to the dog's body.  Cellulose itself in the form of sugar beet pulp etc etc is used in dogs food NOT as a nutrient but as a stool bulker and therefore has no nutritional benefit to the dog.

The dog does not have any enzymes in its salivery glands to begin to break down fibre, cellulose etc and so these breakdowns have to take place in both the stomach and the gut.

HTH

Hm....

yay for the converted! :)

My take on the veg/cooking t hing is this..... yep, an animal consuming the partially digested stomach contents of its prey is NOT going to be recieving the full nutrients that would be present in the raw version of that food, since the stomach acids have got to work on it.

But..... If we were trying to recreate the way wild canids would live, then our dogs would run free, eat what they killed (not what we bring back from the butchers) and only eat IF they killed, not twice a day...

When i feed my dogs a raw diet, im trying to give them the best possible nutrition, so im feeding the ideal version of a raw diet, not the 'real life' version.

So yes, veg cooked might be a bit more like veg digested (although i reckon blending and freezing does the same job), but we want optimal health, not 'half starved wild dog'.......

Em

Well, I went to my local butcher yesterday to see what he could regularly supply me with - we got chatting and of course I mentioned this was for my dog as she eats raw meat and bones - he was offended he said "I'm a butcher not a pet shop"...Can you believe it - I shrugged my shoulders and said does it matter who is eating it as long as I pay my money!!!  His son then asked what I would like (nicer boy!!) and he sorted me out with lamb ribs, chicken wings and some kidneys.  He started asking about my dog and how long I had been living in the area etc etc and it all ended up friendly again - they said they would hopefully see me again soon...I have a feeling that the butcher thought I was on the scrounge, maybe?  I'll have to put a bit of make up on next time :D  Anyway, Lana is loving the lamb ribs!!
Sarah :)

:D :D :D

Strange man, I can't see why he would be offended, I thought they liked to get rid of bones and it's up to you who eats it!  Tell him you've got a pet lion as well. ;) :D

Kath.

My butcher was quite surprise when I asked for chicken backs, and even more surprised when I said the dog actually ate the bones   At least that must mean no one else in my village feeds raw which means all the more for Fagan :)

I'm quite surprised at peoples reactions lately, my family and friends and even my OH dont think its quite right that dogs should eat raw bones ....and what about the salmonella, one friend said!  But I'm staying brave - not sure if I'm feeding correct amounts yet but I had her weighed before the new diet and I will monitor it.  I am a little concerned that she plays with her wings on the kitchen floor and then puts her feet up on the work units   Good job we dont have kids!!
Sarah

hmm, Fagan drags his bones all round the house - how hygenic :rolleyes:

We had a friend look after Fagan a while ago and I gave him a couple of chicken wings and told him to stick them in his bowl as they are ...... and what did he do bless him, he was so worried about the bones that he cooked the chicken for him and picked it off the bones - some people just dont listen :P

I've always been a little worried about feeding raw, but reading things here have made me a little more confident. I do not have the time to feed bones and raw food all the time, but I was wondering whether it would be worth it to just feed it at weekends? This has probably been answered before, but exactly how much is needed to be fed? And in what proportions(veg/meat)?