hi
i have a 15 month old leo who has been going to school daily since 10 weeks old.he is fine with kids and 1 boy said hello every day whom he waited to see.
then his parents got a rescue dog who is between 3 and 5 years old also a male.we allowed the dogs to sniff each other but the first time their dog said hello to ours it tried to dominant him by standing up right with his paws on our leo's shoulders.then he started to growl so we moved them away.since then i have spoke to a behaviourist about the situtation she seems to think that he will/does  grumble at the child because he can smell the other dog on him and doesn't like it because it tried it on with him and to tell him to leave him alone the only way he knows how.as to him they are the same pack.i have spoke to the owner regarding his change in behaviour towards her son and she can't understand it.some times he is fine with him and takes the fuss the same as the other kids.
he will grumble at him,but the child doesn't take any notice and returns to try and stroke him again and again.then our leo will stand up and try and push him away with his chest,to move him away but he still doesn't leave him alone so i walk him away from the situtation.
i have told his mum to tell him to stay away from him as at the moment,i can not say how he will react to the child.she said she has told him but he comes any way,so i have now told him myself.i really don't think that my dog would do any child any kind of damage as it is not in him or the breed.i really think it is the dog he is seeing because of the scent of the dog and he has decied that he doesn't like that dog.because of the first meeting they had.  i don't want to have to stop taking him to school as he loves the kids and they love him all because of 1 child and his dog so to speak.i think i have done all i can as his owner to deal with this problem but can't be held responsible for a child that has been told to keep away it is upto his mum to enforce it. i have a child the same age and if i knew that a dog could be funny with her she wouldn't be allowed near it, would like other peoples views.
other parents have seen him grow and how he is with the kids and said bring him up as the kids enjoy seeing him some wait for us at the gate before they will go in to school.

Mmmmm

Irrespective of what is causing your dog to growl at this child, you CAN and WILL be held responsible should your dog bite the child.

It sucks, the law is an ass in some cases, however it is YOUR responsibility to prevent your dog from frightening or biting someone else.

In an ideal world, yes, parents would all educate their kids on how to approach other dogs and what to do should they be growled at etc etc.

We dont live in an ideal world, and if your Leo bites a child, you do run the risk of him being PTS!

You say "i really don't think that my dog would do any child any kind of damage as it is not in him or the breed."

Yes, he can and yes IF pushed he most probably will, do NOT assume that your dog will change the rules he lives by and not bite this child if he keeps on ignoring his warning.

The dogs growling is a warning to the child to go away. If YOU let that child keep coming back, and dont remove your dog from the situation, then i would be very surprised if eventually, he DIDNT bite. Dont expect your dog to be a saint, he is a dog. Its YOUR job to keep him OUT of situations that upset him, as this one clearly does. If you continue to let this kid bother your dog, then when he bites, it will be YOUR fault, not the dogs, and not the childs, YOURS.

Em

"since then i have spoke to a behaviourist about the situtation she seems to think that he will/does  grumble at the child because he can smell the other dog on him and doesn't like it because it tried it on with him and to tell him to leave him alone the only way he knows how.as to him they are the same pack"

Sorry - but thats clap trap from the "behaviourist". Sounds to me like your boy doesn't want the child to touch him. Personally, I'd stop taking him up the school or you are risking a nasty accident :(

Believe the law says that the dog does not have to bite to cause you to be in trouble, it only has to frighten or cause fear for it to end up in court. So I would get on top of it either a 'good' trainer or keep the dog away from strange children. Most of us like to think that our dogs won't bite but they all will given the right or perhaps wrong circumstances, so better safe than sorry.

1st he is under a behaviourist.
2nd this isn't a strange child to him he has known this child since 10 weeks old and only changed when the family got thier rescue dog.
3rd i do move him away from the child and tell him to leave him alone but if the child keeps coming it is up to his mum to call him away.
my boy is still a pup and not an adult.
if the child was so scared of him then why would he keep coming to him.
i do understand that he is a dog and will have a limit to what he will take like any other dog.
he is by no means funny with children he doesn't know he is totally the opposite.
there is no way i would take such a large dog into any enviroment that i couldn't control or put him in a situtaion which would encourage bad behaviour.
believe me i know what i have on the end of the lead i do not under estimate him,
i can see your points of view but this is not what is happening with him regarding school.
all that is needed is for the other owner and myself to keep the dogs apart as they simpy dont get on with each other,and for her to keep her son away,i don't want to upset the child by having to tell him,i think thats upto his mum to do.
if she really thought that he was a threat to her son then she wouldn't let him come over to him.i know as a dog owner and mum of a child the same age i wouldn't put the child at risk by allowing it.

1/ Why is under a behaviourist, does he have other issues and if the 'behaviourist' is not improving matters may be you should try someone else.

2/ It does not matter if the child is known or not, a bite will still disfigure and hurt and could land you and the dog in big trouble.

3/ Even if you perceive it as the Childs fault it will not be the child who will be blamed it will be you.

Please do not be so defensive, what ever you are doing is not working else you would have no need to post on here, you need to get a good trainer who will come and look at the situation and not just make excuses for the dog, there is no excuse for a dog growling and threatening anyone but particularly a child, however much a nuisance. And if you can't get it under control you will have to remove the dog from such situations or muzzle.

Marie...its all very well you being of the opinion that the childs mum should be responsible...and to a degree i agree with you. HOWEVER you are treading very dangerous ground. As everyone else on this board has said, if your dog does bite the child, or show aggression, the police will not agree with you that the mother is responsible, and your dog will pay the price.( as will the child)
This is especially true as you are clearly already aware that your dog is showing aggressive behaviour to the child, and you will not be able to claim it is an "out of the blue " incident. Take heed of the warning signs. Tell mother and child plainly that your dog has taken a dislike to the boy, and tell them its because of their dog. After all, isnt it better to hurt the childs feelings than let him get bitten?
It is paramount that no one gets bitten, and if the mother is being irresponsible, then you have to take responsibility yourself. Thats the law.
Cathy

Hiya,

I think you are missing the point somewhat.

YOU are responsible, i dont care, and more importantly, neither does the law, whether the kid keeps ignoring your warning to stay away from the dog, IF the dog frightens or bites the child, you can fall foul of the DDA and this can result in the dog being removed from you, and possibly being pts.

If you cannot guarantee that this child will not approach your dog, simply stop taking the dog to school with you.

Your dog may well be fine with other children now, but being put in a situation where he is nervous, wary or uncomfortable with a child could well change this.

What is your behaviourist telling you to do about this situation with THIS child?

Sadly, should your dog up the ante and snap at the child, scaring him, or worse, bite him, the law will come down very hard on YOU. The papers are full of 'dog bites children' stories, they are NEVER reported as 'parents allow child to molest dog'.

I see children being allowed to do dangerous things all the time, so just because YOU wouldnt let your child approach or bother someone elses dog, doesnt mean this kids parents have the same ideas.

You should go and have a word with this kids parents again, and if need be, shout 'Go away' at the kid when it comes near, its that or dont take the dog.

Whoever your behaviourist is, if they havent told you to remove the dog from the situation before trying to cure it, then i dont rate them very highly at all!

It may be, that for whatever reason, your dog just does not like this child, and letting these situations happen again and again is only g oing to make that worse.

Em

Up until now, as I see it, the dog has associated the child with 'good things', but since the arrival of the dog in the childs house, things havent always been good when the dog sees this child :( -  He's been told off,  and 'moved away' :(  I assume the dog is on a lead to enable you to move him away?  Could it be that your tension is travelling down the lead?  Has he been checked out by a vet for possible physical causes of discomfort?

he is under a behaviourist because he can be stubborn at times,he knows his place and not aggresive at all.but leo's can be stubborn at his age.the behaviourist told me to take him to school as it has been his routine since the age of 10 weeks and only happening with 1 child.
she told me to tell the child to stay away which i have and if he shows any signs of being funny to check him for it. i move him away to stop if from being repeated over again.
i have spoke to his breeder she told me to tap him on the nose when he does it,but i don't believe in hitting dogs to correct a behaviour issue.
he is walked on a dogmatic head lead and never off the lead.
the last thing i want is any child to be hurt by him i know what he is capable off.
at the same time i would not subject my own kids to that risk either.
as far as i know there is nothing wrong with him medically.
he is ok with this child some times we thought it could be the level of scent on him that is the trigger.
i do take it seriously and trying to do whats best for all parties i don't want any thing to happen to any one or the dogs getting into a fight etc.

Hi Marie
I live in primary school grounds. My dogs are on site and are around all the time when the kids come in and out of school, if either of them began to show the warninf signs that your dog is showing then i would lock them in the house or back garden during the times of day when the kids are around. Even tho it is their home and front garden, it just isnt worth the risk to the children or more so to my dog.

Just think how sad you would be if you was taken to court and your dog taken fron you, it happened to my sister in law and her dogs had never shown aggression to anyone but they came under the DDA and after spending 2 years in police kennels they where finally PTS. 3 Years on she still crys over them.

Debbie

Listen to your dog - he is saying as plainly a he can that HE DOES NOT WANT THIS CHILD NEAR HIM - at the moment your dog is trying to get his message across by growling - if you ignore this he will 'up the ante' and maybe try and bite He is a dog - he has  no other way of communicating his dislike and in fact has given you plenty of warning about his feelings. PLEASE stop taking him to school - if he does attack then he will be blamed but it will be your fault for not listening. Don't make excuses about how he usually likes kids etc - he is clearly unhappy around this one ( and I don't believe it's the others dogs smell !). He sounds a lovely boy who deserves to be listened to.

Yvonne

I wonder too if the child, who now has his own dog, is acting differently to before...even if subtly. For example, is he much more confident now he has a dog and is he  smothering your dog? Is it possible this child behaves differently in some way to the other children? Most dogs don't enjoy hugs for example. They really don't, although as humans we tend to do this to them a lot!!

If for example the little boy regularly runs up and hugs him, the dog may be more likely to growl at this "regular" annoyance rather than at other childrenwho may not be so forward so often.

I agree the child's mother needs tocontrolher child, but sadly what everyone else has said is correct, if the dog snaps or bites, it will not go favourably for you :( 

Lindsay
X

the boy has changed the way he comes to him,straight to him and in his face so to speak then automatically hand on head.they do try and hug him because he is like a big teddy bear but i don't let any of them do it only my own kids,which he is happy to take from the pack members.
i think he see's this child as an annoyance.all the other kids come to him calmer and stroke him on his back then head.
he has only shown this behave since the other dog came onto the scene that's why we think it is dog related more than child.
he has only done it since may and approx 2/3 times to him,each time he has been told and moved away i still think it could be his age as well.

You mentioned 'stubborness' in a previous post, - I'm puzzled why this needs a behaviourist rather than a good trainer?  Dogs are geared up to please, they don't withold their services unless they are confused, puzzled or haven't received the appropriate reward for the behaviour.  A confused dog who doesn't understand often needs simply training in the new circumstances, rather than behaviour modification.

I'm puzzled that anyone, trainer or behaviourist, should suggest using children as a training aid. Think that was what was suggested "take the dog to the school" frightening.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the childs approach has changed, and this has unsettled the dog - the changes have been accompanied by a change in attitude from you.  It's also risky to pat a dog on the head - the hand dissapears into an area the dog can't see, it's also an area the dog regards as more personal - just as you wouldn't like a stranger touching your ear, far better to encourage the children to stroke gently under his throat and down his chest

Marie

Please leave him at home.Maybe after the school holidays he might feel a bit different.He could be going through the protecting stage because of his age, so dont take him for a while.
As for the mother she obviously dosen't care that much about her child as she would stop it from approaching the dog.Some parents are like that.She'd be the first to scream abuse at you if the dog growled even though she can't control her own unruly child.Makes you wonder what their new dog goes through at home!
Julie

I'm sorry but I am just going to have to say this.

You are heading the right way to get your dog siezed and put to sleep. I cannot understand why you are taking the risk of taking your dog to the school when children are approaching him in such a way and he is telling you, and them, he doesn't like it. By taking your dog to the school you are giving the impression he is safe with children - why on earth would anyone want to take a dog to a school if it weren't? If your dog bites then you are going to find yourself in a world of pain - why are you taking the risk?? If he bites, it won't make a jot of difference to the child, the parents, the police or the courts when you try to explain that its because your dog doesn't like the smell of their dog on him!

Marie, your leo is asking you to help him and you seem to be refusing. :( If the child's mother won't tell her child not to behave as he is, then you have to. Don't leave it up to your poor dog, because he is the one who is most likely to lose his life if he is driven to desperation.

Where is your rescue samoyed when this happens?

This is a disaster waiting to happen; you have had some good advice re this scenario; warning signs are there for precisely that, to warn you; you have been warned by your dog that he is uncomfortable in this situation; for heavens sake if you love your dog(s) get the message and do not put him/child/you in this situation!

I think if he were my dog, I'd try getting him more use to lots of kids...BUT...from a distance. Take him to a game or somewhere where he's around some noise and where he can just watch. If kids come over and want to pat him, I'd say "No" not now because he is not comfortable. (even if you think he is) Then later, when you have a guest over who has a child who's playing with your kids, let him be around that smaller, more familiar scene....his own home. BUT WATCH very closely. (he may think he needs to protect your kids)

I wouldn't trust him around anyone if he's growled at anyone! No matter if it seems to be one particular child. He must be overly sensative or not super tolerant. Dogs vary.

My Lab is extremely tolerant and was very used to growing up with all kinds of kids. Her breed and her individual disposition, her daily, constant existance with them made it so she was really trustworthy that way. I never thought a thing about watching her around them. She'd be outside with them or they'd go off somewhere...fishing or to a neighbor kid's house and she'd go with them. This was a while ago as she's quite old now. The same thing with my German Shepherd I had before her. He was just like she is that way...a very high tolerance.

My Dobe has not grown up with a lot of kids as my kids are grown and on their own and there are only a handful of neighbor kids around where I live now. He's had some exposure, but probably not enough. He never has been growly or anything, but he looks a little uneasy at first with kids. After about 10 minutes of being around kids, he appears fine, is affectionate and playful. I've never seen a grouchy bone in his body, but that initial uneasiness worries me. So, I watch him like a hawk if he's around them. As he grows older, I'll watch even more carefully. They change with age.

How much and what kind of kid socializing did he really get as a brand new puppy...between 8 and 16 weeks?

I would want to err on the side of caution. He is showing a real discomfort with this child, for whatever reason. That really doesn't matter. This could transfer to other children. Their faces are right at the level of his face and one bite could be a tragety. I guess...bottom line is like with any training...when something doesn't work quite right, go back a few steps and work back up to something. Like go back and try to socialize him more but lightly and from a distance. Don't bombard him. Unless you muzzle him, I wouldn't let a kid close to his face at all. And if you do muzzle him and let kids pat him, make sure he's comfortable and not overwhelmed by too much. That's all I can think of to add. I wish you the best. Do keep the kids safe and keep your dog from having to be pts.

Carrie

I'm afraid I'm in a similar situation. I understand how frustrating it can be when a child wont listen to your warnings or your dog's warnings, but at least you are in a situation where you can stop this by leaving your dog at home.
My dog was poorly socialised as a pup (due to the inexperience of my parents - and me, being only 8 years old at the time) but she has always grown up with children as I have a younger sister and many young cousins that visit. She generally is nice towards kids but she has taken a dislike to a select few so I am very wary with her around all kids, and try to keep her out of situations where she has to be with them. Unfortunately there is this one boy of 5 years who visits often, as he is the son of a friend of the family. He is very confident with dogs as if he believes none could ever bite him. He has a dog in his household who puts up with his rough play, and this could be the reason he feels all dogs are like this. Anyway, when at our house he constantly follows my dog. I try to lock her away but he goes after her. She has growled at him a number of times but he doesn't take the warning. All her body language shows that she is scared of him, as her tail goes between her legs and she crouches and tries to slink away.
I protect her as much as I can by keeping her locked in a room with me, but I worry that it's only a matter of time when he catches her alone. I think I'll start taking her out for a walk when they come to visit.
Anyway, what I'm saying is, you have the chance to get your dog out of this situation, so do it!

I know what you mean about the boy who's dog puts up with rough play.
I once saw a parson terrier type (only a bit bigger) put up with this child of about 8 rough housing with him in a park. He was rolling the dog over and all sorts, but the dog was just ignoring him - ignoring the rolls and so on, just getting up ...but in a confident way, not in a submissive way(well he was a terrier type! ;) ).

I am positive that kid will get bitten - but what was so so sad was that his parents were watching it all in a loving way as if it was acceptable to let their son do that, and .....oooh, i am afraid my blood pressure just rises when i even think about it!!!   :(

Lindsay
X

Marie,

I can appreciate that this thread might be upsetting you a bit, so i do hope you are still reading.

If i was you, i would 1/lose the behaviourist (apart from using other peoples kids as training aids, precisely WHAT does 'check him' mean, especially when the dog is wearing a head collar? if that means what i suspect it does, a quick jerk with the lead, then dont just lose the behaviourist, shoot him/her! a dog should NEVER be 'checked' in a headcollar. Apart from that, the dog is more likely to associate the 'check' with the kids presence than with his own actions and is very likely to be pre-empting the correction and reacting to that)

2/ Do you mean you NEVER exercise your dog off lead? Please tell me this is not the case, IMO ALL dogs need off lead exercise. admittedly with your dog being a young giant breed he doesnt need, and should not have excess amounts of tearing about like a loony, but how on earth are you going to train a recall if he is never off lead?

3/ Do NOT take the dog to school unless you can firmly but politely keep this kid away from your dog. If needs be, take some assertiveness classes, but as a dog owner it is YOUR JOB to prevent people from upsetting your pets.

4/If you need a trainer, try an APDT trainer, and have a go at clicker training. What training methods are you using? Training fun tricks and playing problem solving games with your dog is far more useful than some would have you believe, as it strengthens the bond between dog and owner and turns the dog on to training (sit/down/stay is quite boring, but 'find the pot with the treat in it', 'shut the door' etc is quite fun!)

HTH

Em

the reason i got a behaviourist for him because i have tried other methods of training with no real sucess.this includes clicker training most worked well for the first 3/4 weeks then he started to ignore it.
the other owners dog growls at all the dogs i have seen that go to school on sight,they don't have to go near him to be growled out.
to put in some order this is 1 child out of around 400 at that school,he is safe with kids he has grown up with mine (now 6 and 12) and see other children in the family regular.
we got him at 7 weeks old,he has grown up with mine and been going to school since 10 weeks old he is now 15 months old.
the breeder also had children.i am not ignoring the situtation at all i am trying to understand what is upsetting him about this child/situtation so i can do some thing postive to help him with what ever it is.
he does recall on a 25ft lunge line and is very good and no he has never been let of the lead.this is due to the fact i will not let him of untill i feel i  have total control in what ever situtation i come across and also his breed. if i let him of he could damage his legs and cripple him for the rest of his life.
as for checking him i was told to do this even on the head collar by the behaviorist to get his attention back when he is looking at other things.
as for the samyoed that i have rescued he is at home because he hasn't had his jabs yet.
you are correct in saying this is upsetting to me i know there is a problem and trying to get advice to do the right thing by my dog not people telling me i have a dangerous dog.

the only thing we all seem to agree on is that there is a situtation that needs to be addressed.

if i took a dog of his size to school that i couldn't control that had problems with kids then that is stupid,but this is not the case.
of all the replys on here i would like to know
1) how many of you actually know what a leonberger is and 2) do any of you own/know the breed that you are commenting on
he is still growing and maturing which changes is all part of it for any dog.
i would never let any dog i owned hurt a child of any age and for people to say i am risking this without knowing me as a person and the dog in question.
you seem to forget i have a 6 year old daughter in the same class as this boy and approx the same height
who would keep a giant breed that had problems with kids in the same house as kids.

for those of you who don't know what a leonberger is at the moment my boy stands 32" to withers over 36" long and 63kg+ but still a pup.if he stood on his back legs he would be around 7 foot tall. 

I know exactly what a Leonberger is, my friend bred the most recent Leonberger Champion.

She also has two young children at home, and her dogs were fine with them, but one that she bred was pts last year, as at 2 years old went for a visiting child and pushed it through a plate glass window. Nobody actually knows what happened but the lady who owned him decided with children visiting regularly she couldn't take the risk.  Unfortunately she did not ring my friend before making that decision.

So I have to say I agree with what everyone has said, your boy has taken a dislike to this child, so you will have to keep either the child away from the dog, or the dog away from the child before his warning signs turn to action.

You are now the owner of a giant breed and as that have to be responsible and think before putting your dog into any situation where he could hurt a child and I don't mean deliberately!!!
I mean that a dog of that size could accidently knock a young child over and cause injury thus causing a parent to invoke the DDA.

I also agree with everyone who has mentioned it, get yourself a proper trainer not someone who suggests using other peoples children as training aids.

Firstly, I have to agree with the previous posts about your behaviourist..........one should NEVER check a dog with a head collar. This can cause the head to turn and damage the neck. Imagine someone twisting your head around quickly, even if not hard,and you can imagine the likely outcome. I am afraid that if this person comes up with such a bizzare suggestion, then I really would have my doubts about that persons suitability to be a pet behaviourist. Maybe you could get a second opinion.
I know you want to do something positive to help...but whilst you are trying to "understand and empathise" with your dog, the risk is still there. Lets face it, your dog dislikes the child now, and it is very unlikely to change. The only positive thing to do is accept it, and keep the child away.
It comes over in your posts that you are trying to be thoughtful, empathetic, and not hurt anyones feelings, dog or human. You seem worried / unable/unwilling to tell the child to keep clear, ...........have you asked yourself why?
If you feel unable to assert yourself with a child, are you sure you are being assertive enough with your dog? It would certainly explain any difficult stubborn behaviour.

i have told the child to stay away from him
i have kids of my own so telling kids what to do is not the issue at all esp as my son is almost a teenager.
i don't want to upset this child thats all, how many parents would want to upset another person child,it is upto her to put her foot down with him not me.she is as aware of the whole situtation as i am.
he is not my 1st dog i have owner boxers in the past and myself grown up with all type of dogs.
it just seems that my leo needs a different type of training from the others.all dogs respond differently to different methods used.
i have spoke to the behaviourist more than once about this situtation but she keeps saying the same thing.
does any one know of the bark busters group because thats who he is under.
as i said in the past i know what i have in my dog and know the need for control over him.
no one in there right mind would let off a dog his size,power, if they didn't have it.

Marie, have you explained the situation to the child's mother, and asked her for help in keeping her child away from your dog? Of course you want to be able to take your dog to the school gates and to have the usual chats there, but until this is sorted it simply won't happen. I too know how big leonbergers are, and that is one reason why this must be taken seriously, because if he decides to make the child go away in a canine way (lunging and biting) because the warnings (growls) haven't worked, you're not going to be able to stop him, headcollar or no. (Unless you are about 8' tall and weigh 30 stone!)

At the moment it seems you have two choices: you can keep the child away from the dog, or the dog away from the child. Maybe if you leave the dog at home for a month the child will have got out of the habit of swamping your dog, and the dog will have lost some of his dislike for the child, by the time you gradually start to reintroduce the school trip again.

I do sympathise with you, I really do, but this has the potential to be disastrous, and I know you don't want that. You may feel you are being nagged, but it's only because we neither want the child to be injured, nor your dog destroyed.

Marie....I have never heard a good report of barkbusters on this board. I cannot say too much, (legal implication), but I would look elsewhere.( read between the lines)
And I do know what a leonberger is, as do most people on the board.  People are trying to help you marie, based on the info YOU give in your posts. It did certainly come over that you didnt want to hurt the childs feelings by telling him to stay away.
i am not implying your dog is not safe with children in general, but YOU were the one who said your dog had a problem with THIS child. So keep him away from THIS child. Its not exactly rocket science, is it? I see no need to delve into the deep reasons why he doesnt like him, its not going to change things! Do you like everyone you meet? If you dont like someone do you spend hours analysing why? Provided you are confident that he is safe with other kids(as you claim)Just accept it, and decide how to avoid a confrontation...either tell the child in no uncertain terms to keep clear, or dont take the dog. The choice is yours, but keep the two apart.

Through this board i have heard bad reports of bark busters. Is the behaviourist qualified? I really don't think telling off a dog that is growling is going to help. My dog has recently starting growling, and after consulting a trainer and a behaviourist i have been told (ald totally agree with the logic) that by telling a dog off for growling a warning, he is more than likely to jump straght to the attack and stop growling when he feels uncomfortable. I am glad you said that you don't agree with checking a dog for bad behaviour.
Removing the dog from the situation is the best bet.
Also i think every dog is different, just because a breed is not particularly known for agression, this doesn't mean that your dog won't bite. (and yes i do know a little about leonbergers, although i have not owned one - although i would like to.)
Finally, my two dogs have been raised with children, and as my younger sister is mentally disabled she can be very full on with them, which they accept completely. They have never been aggressive towards her at all, infact they adore each other, (Of course we do keep a close eye on them and do not allow anything too rough). However i would never trust either of my dogs with strange children, because dogs do not neccessarily generalise.
I really think you need to find a new behaviourist.

so what do i say to the behaviourist when she tells me to check him on the head collar? no because it could damage him.but if this is the methods used by them for training then just cancell it all.
i have to take the sammy back in a few weeks for his 2nd jab i will ask the vets regarding tob and the behaviourist they reccommend.
upto now all the things they have said have worked with him and continue to work.
the only thing that puts me off with the vets is that i think he only visits the vets once a month surely this won't be enough.
or try and find a good local trainer to take a look at him.
all the methods used on toby are distraction methods to re gain his attention and follow commands.can trainers advice on this as i would like to stick with things he has already learnt and understands.

Stop seeing the behaviourist from Barkbusters; would you send your child to see a psychologist who was allowed to practice on anyone after paying 25k and having a six week course?  Of course you would not, you cannot even become a competent dog trainer in 6 weeks let alone a behaviourist.

If you let me know which county you live in I can point you to a reputable trainer.  Any behaviourist that you see should be one that has undergone a recognised course of academic study AS WELL AS have a great deal of experience with many dogs in real life and is accredited to a professional organisation such as the APBC.  Reputable behaviourists will ONLY see on on referral from a vet so that they can work together on your dog's problems.

Anyone can call themselves a trainer or behaviourist unfortunately; you would not employ a cowboy to put in your gas, don't use them on your dog!

Yes, I know what a leo is. And I feel perfectly qualified to comment as I own 2 danes. One of which is used to give demos and talks at school and easily stands at 7 foot and one I don't take anywhere near the school because she has an iffy temperement with strangers and I would never, EVER take the risk.

I know full well what a leonberger is thanks, ive met plenty.

I also know that a giant breed like that may not be fully mature until 3 years old. I still do not think it fair or sensible to keep ANY dog on a lead full time.

In my opinion, Barkbusters are crap, save your money and find a better behaviourist/trainer.

Anyone who tells you to check your dog whilst wearing a headcollar needs shooting, dont explain that you are hurting the dog, vote with your wallet and walk away from this 'training method'.

Clicker training..... can you tell me HOW you ahve been using a clicker, im afraid taht for it to work for a month and then stop working it is YOU, not the method that is failing there. If its boring then i dont blame the dog for switching off, so would i.

Its no good going over the same ground time and time again, you NEED to keep the dogs interest, teaching new things, in new places. You might think you ahve trained the dog to sit (for example) but until he sits in the house, garden, kitchen, living room, bus stop, street, park, field, playground etc, then you havent. Same goes for every single thing you train.

One of my dogs does 'shut the door'. I didnt consider this 'trick' fully understood until he would shut the living room, kitchen, bathroom, front and back, bedroom, fridge, freezer, oven, cupboard, and pantry doors.

What books did you get on clicker training, and what do you understand the clicker to 'do' in the training?

I have a feeling, and i hope i am wrong, that you have been using the clicker wrongly.

I never suggested in my post that you should let your dog hare about like an idiot for hours on end, but i fail to see how you can train and keep up a good standard of recall with a dog thats never been off lead. I meant five minutes at a time, not hours!

Oh, and im sorry, but id FAR rather upset a child, than have it bitten! Weigh it up, the choice here is, be the mean lady who shouts 'go away small child' (as i DO) or be the lady whose dog is in a kennel on death row for biting. I know which one i am!

Oops meant to add this too..... I find it highly unlikely that it is anything to do wtih his breed that makes him hard to train, considering i know of a working Guidedog Leo! If it can do a guidedogs job, YOU can train it!

Em

Oh goodness - I have to be honest, i have never heard any good of Barkbusters

Obviously i can't comment on your own behaviourist but as i understand it, Barkbusters is a franchise and you only need to do a 6 week training course (and pay out several thousand) and you are miraculously a behaviourist.

A genuine one will have plenty of hands on experience and also have done probably a full degree in animal behaviour. The most recent Barkbuster i heard of was a painter and decorater with no dogs of his own, but 6 weeks after giving up his job was calling himself a behaviourist.

Sorry if i am repeating anything said already, i haven't read the last few threads as i am in a rush this morning.......

Lindsay
X

Think we need to step back and start from the beginning. It is not really possible for us or anyone else to tell you how to handle the situation without seeing it for ourselves. Listening or reading your explaining what happens is not good enough, it has to be seen and the whole relationship between you and your dog needs to be looked at and talked about by someone on the spot.

Just because the dog is only showing this behaviour to this boy does not mean it will only be this boy, but it also does not mean that it will spread to others either. No way would I go along with the scent of the other dog theory, but it may be the attitude of the boys approach.

Think everyone has given the best advice they can, find another, good and qualified trainer, and in the mean time consider your dog may be a danger to any child it may meet and may be even adults, and play it safe, avoid the issue before it happens. And please no jerking, slapping or shouting.

Do know what a Leo is and also that he is entering one of the most difficult stages where he may start questioning your right to have the last word, so as upsetting as it seems, and I also know how ease it is to blame someone else, you need to accept that you have a problem with the dog that needs to be sorted by someone on the spot and that the trainer you have is no good. Someone on the forum may be able to suggest a suitable trainer in your area

the behaviourist my vet uses is david appleby does any one know of him? he only visits the vet once a month but it might be worth getting him to assess toby and ask him about his behaviour etc.
the trainer that is in my area is the same person that we did puppy classes with for my boxers but i wasn't aware she also did one to one sessions.
i think i will get him assessed 1st to see if there is any underlining behaviour issues then go onto the trainer at least i will have a clear picture of things to start with and work upon if there is any thing.
i have already paid for life time cover with bark busters with any problems that may arise with him.
it cost £200 to cover him with them.so it will just be a call to tell them im not happy etc.
this is very upsetting to me i do realise i have a situtation that needs to be addressed and believe me i do not take dog ownership lightly and try to do the best for my pets at all times.

David Appleby is a well respected behaviourist and I would certainly have no hesitancy in recommending him to anyone.

David Appleby would be fine, well worth seeing I would think, he may well ask someone else to deal with your problems. Go for it.

The word Gentle Giant should be banned when talking about leonbergers. They are dogs some are great some are not. I Have only meet about 2 really gentle leos. I have leos they are all lovely and freindly but not one is gentle.And I have heard of quiet a few that have bitten. Mainly the  males, it is getting a problem. which needs to be dealt with.I think everthing is going into making them as big as poss, and not enough is going into temperment. I hope this changes I would love to get another leo in the furture but I will be doing a lot of homework before I do buy. Im not saying your leo is going to be like this for ever.just some of my thoughts. I have a 3 year old male that used to hate some people love others, when he was a pup . he is fine now with everybody.  hope you can sort your dog too good luck.

I can only agree with the others - David Appleby has an excellent reputation.

I BOUGHT A GREAT DANE YESTERDAY, WHICH I NOW NEED TO FIND A NEW HOME SHE IS GREAT WITH KIDS, I PAID 200 BUT WILL GIVE NEXT TO NOTHING TO GOOD PEOPLE, SHE WAS CHAINED OUTSIDE. SO I COULDNT RESIST BUYING HER BUT THE NEIGHBOURS ARE WORRIED SHE IS TOO BOG CAN ANYONE HELP.

Best bet would probably be a Great Dane rescue. Sorry, i don't know of any as it's not my breed - try ringing one of these people, they may be able to help:

The GD Club                      01922 413354
The Northern GD Club                   01457 762911
The GD Owners & Breeders Club      01471 701470
The Midland & West of England       0115 9632743
The Scottish GD Club                    0141 776 3665
The South Western GD Club           01934 712477
The East of England GD Club          01473 328295
The Penine GD Club                      0191 528 6613
The GD Club of South Wales          01222 861903

There must someone on my list who can help you!

Good luck,
Karen