Just wondering how it works when breeders have a waiting list of prospective owners where some want a dog to show and some 'just' a pet... I presume it must be difficult to decide which puppies are show potential when the litter is very new so do would-be owners have to wait patiently until the breeder has assessed the potential of the litter before they know how many pups fall into each category and therefore whether they can have one of the pups?
I'm confused because I imagine it would take a few weeks watching puppies develop to work out which pups to allow to go to 'pet' homes, yet reading these message boards suggests many people are offered a puppy quite soon after the litter is born. Breeders, how do you do it? Are you a lot quicker at assessing your puppies than I can imagine (being relatively new to all this) or are you forced to decide quickly in order to meet the requirements of your list, and thus take a gamble. Just curious as I am on a very long list and have plenty of time to wonder about such things...:) 

It depends on the breed. Where markings are important in the showring, most obvious mismarks, and therefore purely pet puppies, are obvious at birth. Other things develop (or not) along with the pup. But with the best will in the world, no puppy at 8 weeks or so can be guaranteed to be a show specimen - the best anyone can say is that it has no major faults at that time.

Think most breeder would let the show people make a choice (may be with help) and then the others would be asked to view the rest and see if there is something they like, have to say a good few of the pups left may well also be show prospects. No one IMO can pick a top show winner from a litter only those who have everything they need, in the correct place, to give enjoyment to those wishing to show.

When I was looking for a Doberman pup, it seemed that most breeders only came up with one or two "top" dogs in their litter. The rest were sold as pets. They had them evaluated....in my case by a judge. It is indeed hard to say as they change a lot, but I think some things stand out pretty well. So, when I asked if I could get a pup, the breeder said, yes, she was QUITE sure....because it would be HIGHLY unlikely to get more than one, maybe two show prospects. As it turned out, this judge who evalutated this litter of only 5 said that they all could be shown...were all very, very nice. Mine was not sold on a limited registration. But I really just wanted a pet. So, I think they pick the "pick" and that's the show prospect. And of course, responsible breeders breed to improve the breed and do not breed to make "pets." So you should end up with a VERY, VERY nice pet if you're not wanting to show. It should rival the "show" quality with maybe a slight imperfection or flaw here and there, maybe just doesn't have that pizzaz that the pick does. Of course, they change and no one can be sure how they'll turn out. It's a guestimate. Some people spend a lot of money on the "show prospect" only to have it turn out not so great after all.  That's how I understand it from my research into this.

Carrie

That sounds about right, Carrie. Most pups in a litter will not be 'stars', but still lovely, wellbred dogs. Just not top flight. But breeders should always aim to produce the stars, and not set out simply to churn out less than the best they can.
:)

Hello.
I would agree with all that has been said when we got Sal although her pedigree was "excellent" and both her parents were consistent winners at a high level and indeed  both Ch's.  The whole litter of 6 was sold as "good/healthy examples of Staffords with temprament being a major consideration" and now I think it great but some may consider it odd that by Sal's breeder  "pet" homes are rated higher than "show" homes. Because her breeder is looking for people who will love their dog even if by some fluke their ears just don't turn out right. Not a home that will move the pup on if that happens.

Karen

Interesting answers - thankyou. :)
I can see how unsuitable markings would quickly sort things out. In a breed where markings/coat colour are not an issue at what kind of stage (in terms of weeks old) would the breeder (or judge in Carrie's case) be assessing the pups' show potential (or helping owners to choose their future show prospect as Jackie mentioned)? I suppose I'm asking how early it's possible to observe what are presumably fairly subtle differences in conformation? Or are they not so subtle? (Currently trying to understand and properly 'see' how some adult dogs fit the breed standard more than others. As a newcomer to the world of dogs at the moment all seems subtle to me!) :)

In my last litter (now 2 years old) I had 7 boys and 2 girls. As I wanted a good 'show' dog I started by eliminating the girls. They just didn't have that 'something' about them. I then watched the boys and one at a time discarded one as being 'my ideal'. Note, this was just my opinion. I eventually narrowed it down to 2 or 3, and just couldn't decide which I liked best. Though there was one that my eye kept returning to. I eventually decided to keep him at 12 weeks old and let his 2 brothers go. I've since met up with one of the first boys I rejected and he is much more of a 'show potential' than the one I kept!

You just never know how they will turn out. Chance, the one I kept, was at Crufts this year and has qualified for next year, so I don't think I judged too badly. I just think his brother is better looking. ;) Though they are like 2 peas in a pod, except Travis has the better front. :D

Kazz
didnt realise there were 6 in Sals litter - do you ever see any of the others ?
I Thought it was just the three girls :rolleyes:

Hi, well we often see a certain something in a pup the moment it is born- with ours it can be an exceptional head, short back, excellent tail set or ear set.  Of course, it does not always stay, or the rest of the pup may not be up to scratch, but sometimes you can have an inkling on day 1.  Apart from these special individuals, I guess about 4 weeks is when we start to really evaluate our bunch.  At that age we start to teach them to stand on the table, and they are finding there feet enough that movement, topline, tailset is just showing.  By 8 weeks we can often see which we thinnk will definetly not make the grade (lots of little things at 8 weeks dont tend to change, such as coarse back skulls, high ear set, poor tailset, even bad mouths can be indicated this early.  However, we often run pups on much, much longer!  That way, we can gradually weed them done to the best 1 or 2 by 6 or 7 months.  And even then, things can change!
bye
Gwen

Well, in Lyric's litter, there was one boy who was just a little beefier. I'm not sure if his angulation was better or not. I tend to doubt that, as Lyric is really nice looking. I think maybe his underjaw was a little beefier. Sometimes it's temperament. With the Doberman the show people like a little more exuberant dog that probably will make a better "working" dog. I wanted more of a couch potato, (if there is such a thing in a Dobe....LOL) but not to the point of losing his desire to work. I think I'm seeing a good balance in my dog.

So, a pup that shows a little more aggression (not mean, nasty...but more pushy, more in your face kind of aggession) may make a flashier dog going around the ring. These pups were all quite similar as far as I could tell. They were definitely not one bit shy, which is very important. They were all friendly, roudy little ruffians. But I did recognize that little, tiny something with the one boy. He was a little more "built." He sold for $3000.00.

The breeder know his/her dogs best after being with them day and night for 8 weeks or so, and it's best that the puppy buyers leave it up to the breeder to choose a pup that best fits the buyer's preference. They do the best they can so it will be a good match. They want their pups to be happy.

Carrie

Think it may differ between breeds, in my own I think if you look at about 6 weeks and remember that through all the growing stages that would otherwise send you into despair and in the end at some time in the next year or so they will return to the nice balanced dog you saw at 6 weeks.

Guess in some show homes the dogs are not looked upon as pets, but in mine they are and if they don't make the grade then who cares all I have to do is persuade my husband that we could squeeze just one more in and I can go looking for yet another perfect puppy :)

This is all fascinating stuff - thankyou. :D
I find it amazing that you can tell so much so early in a pup's life. Suppose it comes from years of experience looking at your breed and seeing a number of litters grow up.

And sometimes you just look at a puppy you bred, and regardless of its attributs or faults you just fall in love, and keep it.  My most dealry loved pets are those who would never even had a chance as show dogs, but they are the most delightful companions:)  Its not always about what will win in the ring.
bye
Gwen

Very true, Gwen!
:)

so at what age do you know if a pup is show quality or not even though i want a pup to show when i do get pup i want a puppy as in 10 weeks plus as pups cannot fly till 10 weeks to ireland someone told me i am better off buying a 2 year old then a puppy which i dont agree with as i want a puppy if i wanted a older dog i would do so

can you see the difference within a few days

georgina

In Chance's litter there was one pup, Mitch, who was so ugly it was unbelievable! He was at Crufts this year, so I think he turned out a lot better than I ever thought he would. ;) Honestly, you would never have thought he was the same breed. :D

Apparently the ugly duckling changed into ......... ;)

Hi Georgina,  We rarely let a show prospect pup go before 10 weeks, just to give us that little longer to assess.  Pups going abroad we often keep until the teeth have changed, too, just to be sure, as a large financial commitment for the pup and the shipping is being made by the buyer.  However, with show potential pups, we usually have an "if it does not make the grade" clause with the buyer.  Dawn R will be able to verify this if she is around ;)  Different breeder have different rules, of course.  You will find that established breeders, with a distinct breed type, have a pretty good idea about the development rates of their own lines - for instance, our partis mature a lot faster than out blacks!  I dont think many people would sell a 2 year old show dog, at least, not an exciting one.  And I agree with you, half of the fun is having the dog from a pup, building up a bond, and doing the training.
bye
Gwen

HI Lel,

Yes there were 6 three boys and three girls. And have seen one of the boys since, actually the one Craig ran on to about 9-10 weeks I think - I saw him at a open/limit stafford show - can't recall which one Craig showed him. The dog had never been walked on a lead only a harness, and no ringcraft- so a bit of a handful as you can imagine. But he was a "knockout" I thought, a bit like Libby's mom's brother have you seen him, he is as close to the ideal "Stafford" as I think I've seen?

How is Libby coming on ?

Karen

Having just re-read this topic I've realised it sounds like all pups, even ugly ones, make the grade. They don't. It's just that some pups that don't look all that nice can, and do, turn out nicely. Whereas the 'nice' looking ones don't always turn out as you would expect. Over time you develop an 'eye' for your breed, but things can still turn out differently. There are many 'show quality' dogs in pet homes. Show dogs that don't make the grade are rehomed into pet homes. Though not all breeders rehome the ones that aren't up to scratch. After all, most show dogs are much loved pets first and foremost. ;)

I went to see Fagans litter twice before I knew which pup I was getting.  The breeder had other breeders and judges take a look at the pups at 7 weeks to decide the show potential and as I wanted a show dog I got the best of the dogs (in their opinion as all that could change ;) )

I do agree that the ugly duckling can sometimes turn into a swan, Sh Ch Afterglow Ambrose is a case in point here, he finished his career as top gundog, but was always the plainest of the litter, however his construciton was always excellent, allowing for growth phases.  However, in our experience, it is a lot easier to spot the ones who wont make the grade early! Some things, like poor tailsets, bad fronts, and lots of minor breed points, can be seen at 6 - 8 weeks, and are not going to change.  These pups still look just like the breed standard to the general public, but dont have the quality for the ring, and never will.  However having been bred for temperament and health, they make excellent pets.  It is the  ones in the middle who can give the biggest surprise, the late bloomers who are nicely put together, but dont produce that special something till  a few months old.  And the biggest hearaches, of course, are those who look like baby champions at 2 or 3 months, and then you realise that this was their best ever time, they never reach that look again!
bye
Gwen

thanks gwen

When I get bookings for pups then I contact them in order that they registered and interest with me for the sex they wanted.  Pups are sold as Companions first and foremost.  Anyone who is likely to want to show will get first pick of the sexes.  In my current litter all same sex I had to let some people who definately wanted other sex down and pass onto others, I was then left with those who wanted, this sex, and after cancellation was able to offer two of the former opposite sex people the others, and they were happy with either sex.

Two people want to show, so they have first and second choice, third want a pet but will go to ringcaft and may have a go at showing, and fourth wants a pet pure and simple.  Pups have been put in order of merit (as they appear now), and those pups have been suggested to the new owners in the appropriate order, but they may choose differently.

sometimes no-one wants to show, but people decide they would like to later, somtimes their pet is a good one, and sometimes not so good, they ahve fun showing, and then a few years later book a puppy with more potential from a breeder or dog/bitch they admire.

My foundation bitch had a Champion brother, and was the last availbale bitch from her litter.  She was bought as a showable pet.  She3 did moderately well, placing about the middle of most of her classes, and has her stud book number.  I have been able to slowly improve down the generations (often 2 steps forward and one back) and given what I know now would have chosen a different pup to keep from my first litter (not just based on how I know they turned out).