i cant stand it when people say choc labs are harder to train, or are madder than blacks or yellows, its total rubbish, ive had mad blacks and horizontal chocolates!
Its not true, dont listen when people say choc labs are harder, each dog is different!

Thank you for that information, not sure what sparked you into writing it but why don't you join us. People with your experience, someone who has owned a lot of dogs, always has much to offer.

Hi Jackie, there is a post further down the page entitled 'excitable lab'. John has answered the training question and this poster seems to have taken exception to the reply.
Dawn R.

Just thought that for someone to make such an all embracing statement they must have knowledge of at least a few dozen dogs.

Sorry to upset you guest but that is a judgment based on literally thousands of dogs not just on the occasional one. In my capacity as a working gundog instructor I have come into contact with so many Labradors and can only tell it the way it is. On average a chocolate Labrador is around six months to a year later maturing than the other colours. Add to that the fact that after all these years there has still never been a chocolate Labrador Field Trials champion in the UK.

Yes, of course there are exceptions to every rule but on average that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Regards, John

So a chocolate pup with the same parents as a black pup is less clever, harder to train?? wonder what the theory behind that is?? perhaps some 'mad' gene attatched to the colour gene?? I dont think so.
May be it is because working dog owners have heard this tale and thought they better aviod chocolate, may be the fashion for chocolate applies more to pet owners than those shooting with their dogs.
Amos

Not really Amos, it comes from the fact that you only get chocolate Labradors from Labradors carrying the chocolate gene. There has been so much irresponsible breeding of chocolates done over the years because of the perceived "Rarity value" of them that so many people have jumped on the "Lets breed chocolate Labs" bandwagon. Look at the "Looking for a Labrador puppy" posts on the board, most want a chocolate even though occurring naturally it is a minority colour. A few slow maturing ones possibly a bit hyper and the result is there for all to see. Just as working Labradors have developed into almost a different breed, so chocolate Labs are fast in danger of going the same way.

This is fact not fiction!

John

I have to agree with John.  Having run puppy classes for a number of years now, chocolate labs were very few and far between at one time but now we see more chocolates than black and yellow put together and whilst there are exceptions, as a rule they are later to mature and more 'boisterous' than the blacks and yellows. 

So what about a litter of both chocolate and black, they could even have both black parents who carry the chocolate gene. Would there in your opinion be a difference in their learning ability?
Do you consider a black carring chocolate inferior in working ability too?
Regards
Amos

As you only appear to want to argue Amos and I'm not playing ball. But for the record I did once break my own rule and brought a yellow from a choc dam and yes it was hyper. I speak the facts as the are and if you dont believe me then that is your perogative. My thoughts are that the guest was only trying to start an argument, in which case I've put her right and thats that. If she wishes to continue the argument then she will have to join but I suspect that she cannot do that anyway.

John

No I dont want to argue, what makes you think that? I am genuinely interested in your answer to my question.
Amos

I think something similar was discussed before; I think the colour of horses was mentioned; ie chestnuts being notoriously fiery (especially mares) so I guess this may happen in those breeds who have colour choices (unlike mine which is Hobson's choice) :D

Sorry, if it's a genuine question, There are plenty of blacks out there which do not carry the choc gene so a black to black mating would in time dilute the choc away. The problem is more likely to occure if the either the sire or dam is a choc. As I said, my Bethany was out of a chocolate dam to a black dog and never grew up in her shade under 14 year life.

Working lines carry very few of the lines which are hyper, obviously they would not be used for future breeding so would die out whereas in the pet market they do get used over and over again. A chat to a Labrador rescue will show you that a large part of dogs passing through are chocolate, very much more than the percentage bred would indicate.

When any breed or sub division of a breed becomes popular it always sufferes as a direct result of tight breeding.

Regards, John

I can not disagree with what you have found in your experience but what I am trying to assertain is if would you consider a black pup brighter than its chocolate sibling?
there is no doubt that there could be selection issues that apply to chocolate labs recently but I believe this is not connected directly with the gene which is responsible for colour. Well bred chocolate labs (and yes there are some out there) get tarred with the same brush and it is unfair in my opinion.
Amos

"would you consider a black pup brighter than its chocolate sibling?"

But could colour, if a mixed litter, be just coincidence ie in a litter you will find bigger/smaller/ better/worse constructed and brighter/dimmer examples?

just a thought.

I think my post above answers this question. Beth was yellow but inherited the hyper trait. No of course the gene for colour would not affect temperament but the gene for this temperament is in at least some of the chocolate lines and in my experience quite a large percentage of the lines.

Regards, John

I adore all the labs I have ever known, especially the chocolate ones but I do wonder if they were called Brown Labradors would they be as popular?

Exactly. Or Liver.........yuk. (not yuk to Labradors, I started out showing with Labs.)
Dawn R.

Thought that this guest was making a very sweeping statement and guessed that either they have vast experience or they were trying to cause trouble, as they have not joined sadly it would appear to be the latter. One can only speak as one finds and I have found, as Johns considerable knowledge suggests, the Liver/choc are far less stable than most of their Yellow or Black cousins.

My chocolate had none of the flighty, exciteable traits that I read about on some of these message boards. She was calm and so stable even as a very young puppy, never nervous or wild. She's been a dream to train....very smart and willing and the sweetest disposition with everyone. She grew up with my kids. My Dad use to hunt with a friend who had chocloates who were all lovely, just like Bonnie whom I described and exquisitely trained. I've never heard of anything like that from other Lab people around here...that the color makes a difference. My dog's breeders had both and they never said anything about any difference. Bonnie's damn, a chocolate had all kinds of titles, field etc and her sire was Am./Can champion with field titles etc...both extremely well trained. They were both lovely, Mom was exuberant, but stable, steady and sweet and sire was more quiet.

But then....I've only got 1st hand experience with a handful of Labs.

http://personal.pitnet.net/ldoll/buying_a_lab_pup.htm#Color, gender and disposition

There are a few choccie labs in my training classes, I have seen retained testicles and entropion in more than one individual, also they are usually overweight, hyper and some I have seen are 'tiny' - I mean real tiny, like cocker size!  I feel sorry for the breed right now, everyone wants one, and everyone's breeding 'em :rolleyes:
Sarah

Possibly due to our quarantine laws and again possibly due to the sheer physical distance between the US and the UK I think, (Based only on what I've read) that Labradors have developed slightly differently in the UK to the US as in fact a captive gene pool is always likely to happen. The American Labrador is quite a bit bigger than the UK dog. (This is based on the relevant breed standards) This same restricted gene pool will again always occur if you start breeding for a particular aspect. If you start breeding for a particular colour then obviously you can only use dogs which carry the gene for that colour. By so doing you will get all the rest of the genes associated with the dog which carries that gene. Because of the limited number of dogs carrying the desired gene these other genes will have a disproportionate effect on that colour as a whole.

Add to the above some of the irresponsible and uneducated breeding which has been a hallmark of chocolate Labradors, the breeding to supply a ready market has meant that to many breeders the ability of a stud dog to provide choc puppies is about the only criteria. It only wants one well used hyper stud dog to, over a period of time, change an entire section of a breed.

As I have said before, this is a generalisation and obviously there are some caring breeders of chocolate Labradors who are trying to do the best for the breed. There are also many Chocolate Labradors out there working, their owners dreaming of making up the first chocolate Field Trials Champion and good luck to them. It WILL happen one day.

Incidentally, I said there had been no Choc Lab FT ch in the UK. That is true but I believe there has been several in the US. Proof of the different development in the two countries I would say?

Regards, John

Just a thought...
Prehaps because you all ASSUME that chocs are harder to train, you allow faults and you dont expect them to be quick, therefore they wont be quick because of the signals you are giving out and the fact that you think they are less clever.  If you have less hope for a choc lab than a black lab, the choc will do worse because of you?

on another note- so what if they are more hyper? DOes this matter really? All breeds of dogs have different temprements so why is this one being critisized so much?? Every breed of dog is different, and if you expect chocs and blacks to be the same because they are labs then i disagree.

Would think John this is a case of 'the dogs I have know' and it will only be people like yourself who have a very wide experience of gundogs in the UK who can see the way things are going.

The whole point is Jackie, as you know; an instructor does not train the dog. My job is to train the owner so my thoughts on an individual dog, colour or breed is immaterial. It is the owner doing the training. I always try to do the very best I can to help all the handlers.

Breed specific knowledge does help me offer advice tailored to that breed. Goldens for example cannot be pushed as early as Labradors and being air scenters work in a different manner to the Labrador who is a ground scenter. Flatcoats have possibly the very best nose of all the retriever breeds but are not normally so handlerable as a Labrador so it is easier to put the lab close to the retrieve. My job is to try to help the owner get the best from their dog regardless of what it is.

Best wishes, John

What I was meaning John was if you have known say a dozen Labs of assorted colours and they all appeared much the same in temperament and trainability you would come to the conclusion, based on your experience, that there was no difference no matter what the colour of dog. However if you have in your time had 100's under your eye your may well form a different opinion and as the second sample is a good deal larger than the first it has more chance of being nearer the truth of the matter.

Yes indeed....I agree....when you have a very, very popular breed and there are a lot of them, naturally there will be higher odds of problems and problem breeders. I understand what you're saying about the gene pools.

I had heard of the difference in size between U.K. Labs and American. There must be a lot more differences than imaginable. Here, Labs and other retrievers are air scenters where the ground scenters are hound types...bloodhounds and the like.

My own Lab totally demonstrates this where I live. There are so many wild animals up behind my house and you can see her stretching her nose up and outward and sucking in air rapidly....in and out, in and out and her head kind of makes little bobs up and down. And on our hikes, she'll stop and check something out like that. She also goes on the ground a little too. My Doberman appears to mainly go on the ground like a hound. The Chihuahuas do too....more of that way. Interesting.

Here's a site about that very thing:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0857790.html

The Labrador is to my knowledge the only ground scenting retriever Carrie. Watching them work, a Labrador will faithfully follow the scent of a Pheasant absolutely down the line whereas watching a Golden or Flatcoat and you will see that it will be running a track parallel to and a few inches down wind of the track.

So saying, there is no black and white. I've seen Anna pass a retrieve three to four yards down wind and turn into it so obviously she picked it on the wind. To a certain extent it is a trained feature but not entirely. Many years ago my old Mandy went blind late in life but you would never know! She could go anywhere following the scent on the ground. Some years later my Kate, who was diabetic, went blind with sugar cataracts. Although a Labrador she WAS an air scenter and she had no end of problems from walking into things. She was following the air scent but of course the air scent was not where it was laid but had drifted slightly on the breeze!

So yes, there are air scenting Labradors but that is not their usual method.

Best wishes, John

I would definitely agree with you John; hence why labs are now so popular for Working Trials, can't get their nose off the floor :D :D

This is true Jackie. You also have to factor in who owns the dogs. Most often, pet dogs are not trained to the level of a working dog so would not exhibit the same degree of control. Add into the equation that a large number of chocolate Labradors seem to be owned by inexperienced owners and getting a reliable guide really does entail plenty of dog watching!

Best wishes, John

" Most often, pet dogs are not trained to the level of a working dog so would not exhibit the same degree of control."

That's probably why I didn't notice the intense ground sniffing in my Lab. I trust your judgement John, as obviously you know about these things. So, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to make any argument. I guess I'm a bit confused (curious too) also because of things I've read, including that site I put up on my previous post. But it's definitely good to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

So, you're saying that when they are out hunting, they tend to rely more on the ground scent where the bird has gone across.

And I guess they go by the ground too when they're sniffing for drugs or explosives. They wouldn't get that from the air so much as the containers that they're in.

Aren't they amazing? Have you seen the dogs that can detect cancer in people? Absolutely incredible!

Carrie

I'm convinced that the only reason there is any difference between the abilities between chocolates and blacks / yellows is down to the quantity of non-worked dogs in their pedigrees.

There seems to be no link between training performance in the liver / chocolate colour in any other gundog breed that I can think of. Flatcoats, cockers, springers, GSPs, GWPs all have a high percentage of succesful 'liver' working dogs. However, amongst these only the chocolate lab has had so much emphasis placed on purely its colour as a breeding requirement.

A litter of chocolate labs of very indifferent breeding is much more saleable (particularly to pet owners) than a superbly bred litter of blacks. Until this changes, most chocolate labs are going to be no use for anything other than being a big brown dog!

I'm convinced that chocolate labs could be bred to the same working standard as blacks and yellows, providing that breeders continually use the best possible bloodlines and are prepared to breed whole litters of black pups (carrying a chocolate gene) rather than constantly striving to breed whole litters of chocolates.

If you look at the pedigree of most successful yellow field trial bred labradors, most will have large numbers of blacks in their ancestors, indicating that the breeders have focussed more on breeding the best working dogs together rather than striving for particular colours. Do this with the chocolates, and I am convinced that the standard will improve!

I believe you are right Havoc. I put it down to the individual dogs which have influenced the chocolate Labrador rather than the colour in it's self as I have said before.

I also believe that you COULD get a good working Choc if a half way decent choc was mated to a really good black carrying the choc gene. If the resultant choc was again mated to top line blacks carrying the choc gene eventually you would stand a very good chance of producing a Choc FTch. Thing is, very few working people would be interested in wasting their time doing this when they could have a great working black or yellow first time around without all the hassle of line breeding for it.

Regards, John

Havoc, you worded it well and I would agree with that too.
Amos