Hi everyone,

I just found champdogs and I am very impressed. I am a little disappointed that most of you don't agree with Jan Fennel's tactics. I have tried them for about five days now. My dogs have improved a little bit but not how I need them to. I have a 4 year old?? lab/rot cross from th RSPCA whom we've had for 3 years in June. He's not the problem, he is surprisingly a very good dog. My problem lies with my cute, cuddly and adorable nightmare Bernie, a 4 year old?? Bearded Collie Cross. I think I know for sure that he suffers from Separation Anxiety and I think he might even be what is called a "Yo-Yo" dog. We have already had complaints from neighbours through the council about his incessant barking when I am not home. We have temporarily subdued the problem by taking Bernie wherever we go, or take him to be dog sat by my in-laws. I don't want to give up on this little chap, because he is a cracking dog. I tried him yesterday with a moleculball filled with tuna, peanut butter, and marmite. It kept him at peace for half an hour (I put him in the outdoor kennel). I need some advice. This Achien Bonding is working, but not on the things I need it to work with. I haven't got alot of money for a behaviourist to come see him. I want to try and sort it on my own. Any information would be great. I did see these collars that squirt citronella but I wasn't sure. Seems a little bit cruel. I have also seen some advice on praising for appropriate barking and praising when they stop barking. I am not sure what to do. Bernie is very intelligent. It's the Collie in him, I think. Thanks for listening

Wendi,
Dudley,
& Bernie

I ust wanted to add I can tell the difference between his barks, the one that is the problem at the minute has got a mixture of whinging in it. Not one he uses to tell me of intruders or if he wants something ( I must be sad knowing his individual barks). Thanks again for your help.

Wendi

The most effective way I've found to stop a dog barking is an Aboistop collar it is humane very effective and safe.

I use it with my males when the girls are in season - stuff the neighbours I can't cope with their singing at the girls night and day lol. A dog will bark for many different reasons as we all know - I have one who thinks he's the big boss and likes to shout it from the roof tops at times, we all know the bitches are in control he just don't get it lol.

You can hire the aboistop for a mth then replace it with a similar width webbing collar - they really don't know the difference.

I brought one so now when I go out or the girls are in season out come the dummy collars for the singers and peace is restored. It also works well for these lighter mornings when the dogs decide the sun's up so come on mum lets all get up - usually about 5 am!

That sounds like a good idea. Is it electric? I kinda don't want to use and electric one. I have heard of the citronella collars. Wonder if they will have the same effect. I like the idea of the dummy collars. That is great. I will look into the aboith collar. Thanks for the advice
I bet your dogs are a real handful!! :)

Wendi
Dudley
Bernie

Schip

Were can you hire the Abiostop collars from?

thanks

Pam n the boys

They are the citronella spray type collars by Roger Mugford and I hired mine first from my local pet shop then I brought it once I was happy that it was worth the investment at £80 per collar.

Seems there are more and more pet are now franchising with the hiring of the collars both the regualar and the masterplus which has a remote unit that you can use as a training aid especially from a distance.

I personally would never use an electronic collar - have seen them used by some trainers over in the States when visiting my sister along with the Freedom Fences which work in the same way - I really didn't like the way the dogs reacted. When the aboistop squirts citronella under their noses they shut up instantly.

I have a funny story from a lovely couple with a 2 year old Elkie male who started showing him last year. He had become a barker, and they did use the Aboistop collar. The male owner told me of one embarrassing side effect of using one. On this occasion they had decided to remove it while they were out with him, and he stuffed it in his front trouser pocket. He hadn't switched it off!! When the dog spotted something to bark at, the thing went off in his pocket, giving the impression that the owner had had an accident :D

are you sure theyre not taking the p-- brainless-the collar works by the vibration going around the dogs throat, -wouldnt of thought it would work in a pocket not attatched to the dogs voice box--but then thank god !!!!!im not an expert on collars :rolleyes:

Well I think the dog barking on the lead produces enough vibration, I thought it was activated by the sound produced, otherwise on a dog like an Elkhound with a thick ruff? dunno!

Maybe he did something else that loudly vibrated and set it off

just realised what you meant--i was gone in the wrong direction----you're probably right on that , it must of been a male .as a womans little po-p wouldnt have any effect on it at all

No they are not taking the P Brainless, I stopped using that type because I found it went off when one of the others barked or if I droped something and I felt that was not teaching the dog anything except to shy away from noise. I now use the one with the remote control, only probs with that I sometimes forget which one has it on and use it incorrectly so I'm nearly as bad a the automatic one. Have found that just putting the collar on will work after they know what will happen if they missbehave. Jackie H

I was pretty sure that it was sound activated, as I had heard that it is unfair to use if there is any chance that another dog would set it off! It is the reason why I have never used iot on my youngest to stop her deciding when it was time to get up in the morning, beforethe clocks went back recently she was barking to get me up at 8.30 am, and she is not a baby!!!!

It isn't only activated by vibration Dizzy .I had to stop using mine when poor Satin kept getting sprayed when one of the other dogs barked.Gillian

thats got to be a manufacturing boo boo!!!! a friend uses that type of collar on hers, dont know if its the same make but its the spray sort, i thought she said it had to fit fairly close as it was vibration, --that would be a fairer way of doing it, instead of the innocent getting a squirt when quiet :)

i do the same with my boys when the girls are inseason which i have two in at the moment,the aboistop is great with no side effeacts,

Hiya Wendi, Dudley & Bernie,

I'm new to this too and its great, I can't keep off here now.

Before I had Thai (white, Staff). I had a Pitbull/mastif cross called Boss and he was georgous but a handful and definately lived up to his name. If I tied him up outside the shops he went mad, and would bark until I came out. Everytime I tried to leave the house he would jump up at me and pull my sleeve as if trying to drag me back inside. My neighbours also told me that when I was out sometimes he would howl and yes you can tell the difference in the barking.
I heard to maybe try and go out of the house and then back in again, each time going out a bit longer. Not sure if this will work as I never got round to try it. He got lymphoa (like leukemia) when he was 4 yrs old. He had cemo but sadly this only prolonged his pain and in the end his organs packed in. It was so sad for such a young, energetic dog to get ill so young. I never wanted another dog after this but now I have Thai and am glad of it.

Anyway enough of this sad story. Welcome and I'm sure you will get lots of advice on here, as I have just done.

I'm very sorry to hear about your dog. I am trying to leave the house for a few minutes. When I take them out, I go through the front door and fetch them through the back door. Even after only the few minutes it takes me to get to the back door, Bernie starts barking in that whingey way. We are working on it. I won't give up on him.

Wendi
Dudley
Bernie

The Aboistop collars are not electric......you are right, that is not the way to go :)

Take a look at roger Mugford's website, Company of Animals, (sorry in a rush, I expect you are clever unlike me and can serach for website!! :D)

Lindsay

Hi barkingdogowner,
There is nothing wrong with useing an anti bark electric collar but the citreonalla is more effective and thats been well tested.
Some of the more sophisticated static electric collars are very expensive and from USA I don't know whats available here but certainly the citreonella has been tested against them it works better.
From what you say most of the barking is done in prey drive which means a collar of this sort should have some effect.
There is a problem called 'collar wise', this means that the dog soon realises that the collar will not hurt it, then it gets used to the initial unpleasantness and the whole thing wears of with some dogs and not with others.
Forget the crule thing thats just a human thing others tell you, they are not the potential defendants in a noise nuisance case and it is not their dog that might have to be rehomed,and then go somehwhere else with the same problem.
Dogs do not think or feel in those terms and it's not cruel, if it were users would not be accepted by human societies, which they are.
I have emailed you the reports on the tests for the effectiveness of both the Citreonella and Electric Anti bark, if I had need I would use the citreonella, I know nothing about the Abiostop might be better than both or worse I don't know.

I have seen an anti-bark "collar" in the pet shop - apparently it is like an elasticated muzzle that makes it harder for a dog to open its mouth and therefore bark. I don't know how effective it is.

Other ideas - leave a radio on loud enough to drown out noise from outside that may be setting him off - or even two radios - one on a talk channel for company and one on a music channel for continuous noise.

Unless you have him close to you to stop him barking it is difficult to do at a distance.

Christine

HI

Just a few more thoughts........

If you do feel he suffers from Separation Anxiety, the collars etc may well stop the noise but won't actually get to the route of the problem.....

It may prevent him from venting his feelings (trying to get you to come back) and so he may well redirect his frustrations or anxieties onto something else - for instance he may start to chew or scratch the door or even self mutilate :(

I'm not saying he will - just that there is that possibility.

Re a behaviourist, if you are insured you may be able to go down this route? It would give an alternative suggestion anyway....

If you do stick to sorting it youurself, well you will need to consider all sorts, such as how long he is left, etc. Molecubals and Kongs (stuffed) etc really do help, as do Christine's suggestions of radio.....youreallyneed to get him used to tiny periods of time and do it gradually unti l he can cope.

Do try getting hold of Gwen Bailey's book on Rescue Dogs - she makes some good suggestions on how to solve this sort of problem which as you know I guess, is common to rescues :(

Good luck :)

Thank you all so very much for your support and advice. I am looking into the citronella collar. I believe it is the best way to go. Bernie has been a little pill today. We had to take him with us while we went grocery shopping (I hate leaving him in the car). I found a good website with those citronella collars on for only £60. I have to wait to get paid though, I'm only a measly student wage. I do want to sort this problem out though. I did like the baby monitor Idea. I have started treating the moleculeball as a special treat for only when we go out or Bernie is left on it's own. I leave him in the outdoor kennel on his own with it. The longest I was able to leave him was 45 minutes. , which is a start I guess. My husband is getting very impatient, but he doesn't understand. Jan Fennel's book did give some insight into how a dog thinks, it has helped a little bit. I'm glad to see that the citronella collars are not inhumane. I am sure it will work. I have had problems between my dogs since I have started this Amichien bonding thing though. I think they are trying to establish who is next best. My lab/rot cross had a little nip taken out from under his eye. It's worrying me because they seem to get in these little tiffs more frequently now. I have to admit though, my dogs listen more to me now that my husband, and it drives him crazy!! :) It's nice being an Alpha!!! :) Thanks again to everybody who has given me advice. I will keep you posted on both their progress. Yes, I think they have made some progress, albeit only a tiny bit, at least it's someting!! :)

Love

Wendi Dudley & Bernie

P/S Is there anywhere we can post pics of our dogs??? I would love for you all to see my mutts :)

Hi
A different way. Teach him to shut up on a command word. Get hold of one of those two way radios (or a baby monitor) Leave, wait for him to bark and then give him the command word through the radio.

Hi Wendi
I own and breed Bearded Collies I don't know whether you know about the breed but these dogs are very active very intelligent and like company.
This breed is a drover dog and has great stamina in passed times they would drive hundreds of cattle from the highlands of Scotland to Smithfields in London so if your Bernie is leaning towards his beardie side to shut him in a kennel with nothing to do with a citronella collar round his neck is not the path to take.
May I suggest if he is on his own for more than four hours you and he won't make it, if he is on his own for less, then a game of hide and seek titbits hidden around yor home Kongs full of titbits may be the way to go and you could try teaching him to speak (bark) on command but this is not easy with a beardie again the bark is part of the history of Beardies their bark had to be heard across the Highlands of Scotland so that the farmers knew where the dogs were working and on which hills so that bark can travel a long way.
A lot of beardie folk do agility with them as they love it, I could give you some addresses of beardie clubs that have fun days and working test for the breed depending on where you live these days are for everyone with a beardie or nerdie as your Bertie would be called they are run all over the country at less six times a year and you could talk to other beardie folk about barking beardies.
Hope this is of some help.
Good Luck
Val P
PS this breed is also very sensative to noise

Val-I'm interested to hear your comments about bearded collies. There is one in our dog training class and he looks really cute , but not very bright (I've never had dogs B4 so I'm very ignorant). In fact despite appearances he is a really switched on dog and I nearly asked his owner tonight if he is typical of the breed. In fact your comments suggest that they are responsive dogs, he certainly is.
Jane
PS HE wears a hair slide which doesn't do much to improve his 'intelligent' look :-)

Yuk hair slides that means he is an over coated one. they should have an arched brow to keep their hair out of their eyes and just wispy bits over the face which we brush back to show them.
Yes too bright for there own good sometimes there is a saying in beardies about training a beardie ' you can tell a GSD to do something but you ask a beardie' any rough handling and they don't respond but ask them nicely and they can do anything.
I show,work, track, OB, ( when I could keep up with them) I did agility, all the walking in the world and they are right up on their toes for it.
And of course with their gobs going at full belt :)
Val

Val,

Thank you for your info. I never knew that about bearded collies. It makes sense because he herds my lab cross around everywhere. I tell him to fetch him in when he doesn't come and he does it. I think it could be because he is bored. He is very intelligent, I know he is. He knows the speak command and we are working on the "nuff speak" command which is working. He responds well to training. In fact, when I try and train Dudley my lab, he just sits and barks at me to get my attention to play with him and to get him to do things. We have him clipped short twice a year because he gets really hot. He has short fur at the moment. He looks like a little panda bear :) Anyway, the information would be great for clubs. I know there is a breeder close by, they have a whole herd of beardies :) All you see is this lady and floating fur all around her. It's quite a sight :) Anyway, I will try the hide and seek. I'm afraid to leave him on is own for more than ten minutes. I'll try anything at this point. Thanks again for the advice and I look forward to hearing about those clubs. I was also wondering about agility training. He does obey my commands. It's just when I'm not at home. :) Gotta go and I'll fill you in on Bernie's progress.

Wendi Dudley & Bernie

Hi Wendi
You forgot to tell me which part of the country you live in as there are beardie clubs nationwide.
If you have a beardie person near you go say hallo we are as friendly as our dogs If she has a herd I bet I know her beardies do tend to come in herds they are very collectable.
Just a little thought if you can't leave him for more than ten mins at a time, when you are home is he always with you or will he go and lay in another room ?
If you know he has done his business and has had a walk put him in a room that you can shut the door on and if he barks rush in and in a load voice say NO don't fuss him just walk out count to ten and if all is quiet go and tell him what a good dog he is make a big fuss and then leave if you repeat this he will get the message.
A That you will come back
B That barking is a No No
The other thing I use is a Cola can with a few pebbles in it I say nothing but if they bark when I have said be quiet I rattle it I have not found a beardie that likes that, but don't forget he has a good brain so best not to let him see the can I keep mine well back on the kitchen top and if anyone is barking at nothing I bash the top and they all stop barking and look round to see who made that row.
Hope this is of help let me know where you live and I will mail an addy for a club or two
Val P

Hi Eshia,
Beardies in the States are still fairly uncommon. I saw my first one only about 5 years ago in NM. He was a "rescued" beardie and had been trained by the owner as a therapy dog. She is a professor in the Social Service Dept in the university and she would use him in adjunct with her work concerning emotionally disturbed children. He had been doing it for years and really loved it.

On a sad, but related note... I went to several AKC dog shows while I was there. It seems that quite a few of the owners who owned & bred Shelties for showing had enough of the barking and had them surgically debarked. It was really pathetic seeing these dogs "barking," -- only hoarse coughing was emerging from their throats. Sure it made them quieter, but it was still very audible and carried even through the crowd. I'm hoping that the fad has not increased in my absence. Amazing though, that the surgery did not disqualify them from the ring.

toodles

I beleive debarking is done, asin some places it is the only way that a person can keep dogs, as there are some very strict anti noise oedinances in some places. I have met two debarked Elkhounds, though didn't realise it at the time, they just sounded hoarse. It seems that when just the vocal cords are cut that they can still bark hoarsly but it removes the resonance so that the bark doesn't carry to the neighbours, I understand they can sometimes can regrow.

I must admit even though my dogs are not allowed to bark excessively, even whenthe postman comes several dogs announcing it is a lot noisier than just one. If it was allowed here I think I might be tempted to have all bar one done! :D It would save my nerves an worry over the dog haters!! (tongue firmly in cheek!)

Hi Eog
Beardies have been turned into a very glamourous breed in the USA. The beardie in the states has to have a herding qualifaction as part of the show scene I do wish we had this here but I would hate to see them become a glam dog here.
As for debarking a beardie without his bark must be horrible I believe in this country it is illegal to debark I have never notice the shelties being a barking breed the two breeds that I come across that do drive me mad are the sammies and the husky's both lovely breeds but I hate being benched near them.
Beardies at shows are very quiet as they look on showing as being another job to do and of course meeting all their doggie friends.
Val P

Val,

I'm sorry, I'm in Derbyshire. That can with pebbles in is a most excellent idea :) I will give it a try in the morning. I will still try to give him things to do like those molecule balls filled with goodies. Unfortunately he is not as food orientated as my lab :P It's nice to know there is someone who can help me with this. I was starting to go to my wits end with him. We all love him (except my neighbours, I got quite upset when they called him "that thing" :( oh well, it rained on their washing today :) I could never have his vocal cords cut. His barking is appropriate sometimes. I live in a rough area and I wouldn't feel safe without his bark. He barks in different ways and it's weird how I recognise them. They stand out very well. Anyway, thanks again for the advice about the can. I'll let you know how we go on.

Wendi
Dudley
Bernie

Hi Wendi
I have sent you some phone numbers privately hope they will be of some help.
If your boy is not very intrested in food it runs in the breed beardies are not stomach on legs (some are) a good tit bit is liver treats you may have the recipe but if not here goes:
a chunk of liver and some garlic cloves boil together until just cooked and then cut into very small pieces put on a baking tray and bake in the oven until hard.
All the beardies at my club thought these where wonderful you can freeze them in small bags and they work well for training and putting in kongs.
In your last mail you said that Bernie barked when you were training your lab well Bernie should not be there if he barks put him somewhere else if you don't want him barking it must become unexeptable in your presents.
Barking at the door or at strange noises is OK but barking at his mate because he is getting the attention is a NO NO.
Hope you have luck with the can it worked for me when my girls where younger.
Val P

Val,

Thanks for the phone numbers. I'll be getting touch with them very soon. I am starting the "can" training now. I left Bernie downstairs on his own for ten minutes without a peep (probably because my husband was there) I'll have to try it when he's not home. It looks like I'll have to exercise my dogs one at a time to teach him that the attention seeking barking will get him nowhere. I have a feeling I'm finally going to get somewhere :) It's nice to know I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I have to admit since I started this Amichien Bonding, he's not half as miserable. He had this really disgusted look on his face before, for some reason. He seems alot happier. He even made his own quiet place behind our chair (now that they're not allowed on the furniture anymore). They are funny to watch. If one is in the space (there is plenty of room for both) only one will stay there. If they see each other in the space the other one will back off and sleep near the door. It's really interesting watching their behaviour. I understand them a bit better now. Hopefully with the help of those clubs, I will begin to understand him even more. I'm going to have a look on the net for more information about beardies. I thank you again for your help, Val, I know Bernie thanks you too :)

Wendi Dudley & Bernie

It's me again. I tried that putting Bernie behind the door and rattling the pebbles in the can trick. It worked!! I kept doing it and built up to ten minutes without him barking!! I wish you knew how happy this makes me :) I did some training exercises this morning with both of them. I did the same thing with the can and Bernie only barked three times!! I am so ecstatic!!! I just can't thank you enough Val for the excellent adivice you gave me. It's nice to see results finally!! I'll keep working with him but I know I'm on the right track. He doesn't follow me everywhere now. He's quite content being in another room without me in it!! Thank you :) Thank You :) Thank You :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Wendi, Dudley, & Bernie

That's great wendi. My parents are trying this with their mad Cocker Spaniel so far it's working.

Fiona

Wendi
I am so pleased it is working but remember don't let him see the can, they are so brainy if he see's what is making the noise it won't work at the moment he thinks his bark is making a horrid noise and being noise sensative he doesn't like it and just one more thing if his reaction to the can changes, change the pebbles LOL silly as it sounds they can get used to the one sound.
Val

Hi, I have read all this with great interest ... having a cross beardie collie bitch I found it fascinating to learn which traits were from her Pedigree ancestors! She is picky with food ... and remains slim! Her bark goes right through you when she begins ... and she always barks when she is ready for a walk. Luckily for me that is only twice a day and just at the time when I usually take them ... she uncannily knows the time almost to the minute!! You suddenly see her lift her head look at me and get up and start to bark! Luckily though she has never suffered from boredom or separation anxiety ... she is more impatient if I am home all day and doing things which annoy her ... she just raises her eyebrows and frowns at me ... :( She is far far cleverer than any dog I have ever had ... and uses her intelligence to humiliate me in front of friends. Good luck with your barking problems ... the can has been the most successful one I have heard of.

Hi Caitlin
They are canny wee beasties aren't they ? be glad you and Wendi (she with the barking Bernie) only have cross beardies I have full pedigree ones four of the darlings not that I would ever be without them they keep me young <BG> and active. I find beardies do well on a natural diet mine are good about feeding but then if they did not eat what I gave them they would go hungery as I don't run a cafe they get what they are given and do very well on it both in the showring and working.
When I was running a training club I found beardies fed on a diet that contained too much protein were very hyperactive, if the protein was natural it was no problem.
Val

Hi :)

I had a major breakthrough with the boys yesterday. I left them in the kennel for half an hour with plenty of things to keep them busy, and I didn't hear a peep out of them for the whole time!! I was so chuffed :) Caitlin, I know exactly what you mean. Bernie is the same way. My mother-in-law says he whinges himself thin. He eats like any dog I've ever seen (and better, he gets a huge Sunday dinner every sunday) and he neverputs on weight. My lab is the same, though. I wish you could see them both. They are great :) It's nice to talk to someone with a cross breed too, you can see how weird and wonderful they are!! :) Anyway, just wanted to give an update on the training. His barking has been reduced by half anyway, thanks to that trick. I don't let him see the can. He even stopped barking when I am training Dudley. He either sits there patiently wagging his tail, or if I take too long he just wanders off and chases bugs!!! I wish you could see it. He does seem a much happier dog in himself and more confident now. He doesn't follow me around so much anymore. I just wanted to say how very happy you have made me and my family for offering the simplest of ideas. We can never repay you for the advice and support!! We owe you Bernie's life if anything. Thank you so much!!!!

Wendi
Dudley, & Bernie

Wendi I am so pleased to have been of some help if you keep working on this you will have two happy boys.
Val P