i was having a conversation with friends last night and they where saying did i know who was using bulking agents and muscle build with there dogs, they started to laugh as my mouth dropped open and they said oh you are shocked also, i thought they where having me on, but one of them said that there was a conversation that was being carried on at a ringcraft class she goes to and a couple of people where saying in there breed the muscle was really important and putting muscle build on there meals was doing no harm,well this started a really heated conversation about how muscle could only be built by exercise,and that bulking agents like body builders use where no use and what damage they could be doing to there dog.
I in all my innocent did not know this went on,and we where talking about it last night for a long time, and there where many ideas being passed around on the subject, just wondered what other people think about it.
Carol

I believe these muscle-building products contain steroids and are banned for use for people - so if banned for us, should be banned for dogs!!  

There will always be those people who want to improve themselves/their dogs the "easy" way - but I wouldn't touch these substances with a bargepole!

Margot

I have been thinking about buying a powder i have seen at the health shop,it is used by body builders but does NOT contain steroids,it is called massive weight gainer,high energy formula,vanilla flavour.This will be my last resort to try and put weight on one of my girls,she doesnt need extra muscle,just a layer of fat.I agree the only way to put on muscle is to excercise.
I have tried upping her food but she will eat until she is full(not much) and wont eat another morsel,no matter how tasty it is.
She constantly has to wear a woollen coat in winter as she gets so cold and shivers due to her lack of fat cover.

christine

in one of the dog papers the breed notes of a couple of weeks ago someone was saying macdonalds milk shakes put on weight for dogs.
Carol

I think you will find these products contain creatine and whilst they are not steroids they can have a very serious impact on the organs;  accept your dogs for what they are; some are just not physically or temperamentally built the same way.

I would seriously reconsider the idea of putting a substance such as creatine into anyone's system, especially a dog's!

I have heard of people using it for Staffys but personally think muscle should be created naturally - by exercise

OMG! What in the world are people coming to. Is winning so important that people will go to any length? Maybe if the lazy B*&&%$s exercised their dog thay might be a bit fitter as well.

John :(

I know John- we had it mentioned to us by people who show as well :(

It seems typical of people's desire for instant this and instant that. Dont worry about working at it, just find an easy option. It's just the same with training, don't bother about spending time over it, just find an electronic or machanical instant option! Sometimes I despair.

Regards, John

Just for the record,i do NOT show and i am pretty much against the COMMON practices that some show people use on their dogs.A shih-tzu breeder once told me that she doesnt let her dogs play together in fear of them mucking up eachothers hair and that their little feet will never touch the natural ground whilst in their show career,needless to say "showing" dogs is not on the top of my list in regards to the dog's happiness and welfare!
Tohme the product that i am interested in does not contain creatine,it is a totally natural product,chock full of vitamins and minerals,it is high in protein and carbs,colostrum etc.,it is also reccomended for sickly children.
I see your point on accepting our dogs for what they are,my vet reccomends that she needs to put on 1kilo,she has no insulation and as i said needs to wear a coat for the duration of winter,inside and out.My dogs get 1 1/2 hours excercise per day divided into 3 walks,which may be why i cannot keep weight on Emma??

christine

Supplements can cause all sorts of problems in themselves, if your dogs is well fed and will eat properly and is not sick then it will be the size and weight that is genetic make up dictates, and should not require supplements. Do not understand the need for a coat inside and out unless your dog's coat is not growing properly because of some medical problem or it is one of the hairless breeds.

You dont have little dogs which is why you probaly dont understand,i'm sure ALL dogs would appreciate a bit of extra warmth in the depths of winter,the same as us!

christine

But they are not the same as us they come with their own excellent coat that adjusts to suit the temperature, added to which they start at a higher temperature anyway. Most dogs suffer far more with heat than with cold and even in the winter all but a few with short single coats or very small dogs would be fine outside to exercise and defiantly better inside without. I don't know your breed but assume that they must be one of those who feel the cold like some of the sighthounds but even then it is only the small ones who wear a coat and would think then only outside. Otherwise dogs are not people and make their own arrangements. Mind you did once see a group of Swedish Vallhund in coats, when I asked the owner if they had been ill she said no but she thought it was a bit cold today, it was late summer, next thing we will be seeing are Huskies in Barbers.

Christine, have just looked up your profile and see you have Shih Tzu, it is surely not one of these you are worried about being cold, unless my memory has failed I believe they are a dog from Tibetan origin and carry a double coat. May be you have other breeds as well.

Exactly Jackie, Shih Tzu are a breed designed to be happy in the temperatures of the Himalayas! With the correct coat they simply will not get too cold! However I think Christine has hers clipped ...

Well yes, I can understand that then, if you remove the coat the dog would get cold but still do not see the need for supplements.

EDIT Now I am a bit confused because on another thread Christine is talking about having to bath her dogs every 3 weeks because they have long hair. May be Christine can tell us what breeds she is talking about, perhaps she clips in the winter because of the mud or something or may be because of drying the coat.

the americans have used similar stuff for years.they have had the stuff developed for canines for over 10 years too, i have used this stuff (for working dogs supplement not to add bulk) and it was good stuff.

http://www.k9power.com/peak.htm

Just to clarify,Emma is in full coat and bonnie being a pup is in 1/2 coat,The bottom line is Emma does get cold because of her lack of insulation.They both have "pyjama's" which i put on them at night,when i get them out both dogs come running and push eachother out of the way to get dressed first,this tells me that they appreciate the extra warmth.Just an example:it has been raining here heaps as of late so everyday on our walks the dogs end up wet,within 5 minutes of getting home emma is curled up in a tight ball shivering(i have to blowdry) whereas bonnie is fine,i can only put this down to Bonnie being 2 1/2 kilo heavier than emma,Bon has excellent fat coverage.Hair or no hair,full coat or clipped Emma does not have enough fat insulation to keep her warm.The first 2 years of her life she was used as a puppy machine and was completely malnourished when i got her.Obviously this is just her make up,she was not meant to be  a "bulky" dog therefore i will do what i can to keep her comfortable and warm,as any caring owner would do.
I dont know about Britain but here in Australia it is a "common" site to see smaller as well as larger dogs with their winter coats on,no big deal!

christine

Another of the international differences, Christine! In Britain it is a very low percentage of dogs who are put into coats in winter - elderly ones and poorly ones maybe, but it is generally considered an 'odd' thing to do (certainly around my area anyway!) most likely to be done by elderly owners ...

Poor Emma obviously had a very bad upbringing, and possibly her lack of coat is symptomatic of her not being bred for quality. She's lucky to have a good home now with you.
:)

Christine,

I don't think you are hurting anyone or anything by covering up your pooch. Some ppl on here are just far too opinionated for their own good.

Not opinionated, just either answering a question or seeking clarification. What would you do ignore or just say yes to everything.

No i wouldn't say yes to everything! But you guys jumping on her for putting PJ's on a dog! Please!

Think you have read something in the thread that I have not noticed, until the last post we had no idea that PJ were in use or why and as far as I know no one has said that coats etc should not be used we were asking why the need. It has been explained now that the dog is not in the best of health and it is the local custom anyway. One of the problems with a forum is that in trying to be brief you do not explain the full circumstances and that can lead to confusion or a stream of follow up questions. It is difficult to give a useful answer or comment if you do not have the full story.

I think you may find that unlike you i do not wish to sit glued to this forum rowing with children. By the way your posts read i personally found them very rude. But hey we're all different!

Do you mean my posts were very rude? Why?

Jackie

When will you accept that i am not entertaining you, if you wish to argue with ppl, try someone that can be bothered!

I personally felt that your posts were sharp and if i was on the recieving end would feel as if you were being rude to me! Okay! End of story! God sake. I'm disconnecting before  I say something i may regret

Would have liked to know why you thought me rude, not for my entertainment; your comments are far from that, but so I could correct any hurt or offence I may have caused.

As you seem unwilling or unable to answer my question I can only say if I have caused Christine offence or hurt  I am sorry and assure you I just wanted to get hold of the full story before attempting an answer that may have been of some use to you. 

I think I've heard everything now! Putting pyjamas on a dog to go to bed in!!! Wow!
This is totally unnecessary for ANY dog! How on earth would they get on in the wild?

This board gets more potty every day or is it just me getting old?

.....still trying to find ear muffs big enough for my dog next winter...you know what I mean John....the big fluffy ones...preferably in pink  ;)

To hell with the dog Jo. If you can find any let me know and I'll have a pair for myself for when I'm standing in the field! ;)

LOL! :D

Christine, sorry to hear about your little one and can only suggest that you forget the body building products and try may be puppy or junior food instead or may be an extra meal of one of the convalescent products that are on the market for humans. Thome will no doubt tell us if this is a good idea or not.

To be honest we all know how easy it is to put on weight :D on both us and our dogs!

Just feed calorifically dense foods; I would not necessarily feed more of a food but I would feed fatty cuts of meat, add FBO and Vit E to the diet, and even other oils which will be high in calories but you need to watch for digestive upsets.  Eggs are the perfect protein and so I would recommend lots of them.

The convalescent foods tend to be high in sugars including lactose and milk products/derivatives.  Fatty oily fish would be another good way of packing in some extra calories.

akita lover, I honestly can't see where anyone has 'jumped on' Christine, and obviously nor can she or she would have said so! However, the fact remains that athe best coat for a dog is its own natural one. If however poor genes or health means that this is inadequate then obviously you would have to intervene.

However, to add a layer of fat to the body you wouldn't want to increase muscle which is what some of these 'body-building' supplements claim to do. You want to add more calories to the diet, preferably in the form of fats, which has to be carefully done so as not to cause stomach upsets.
:)

Wasn't comenting on the bulking agent. That is of no interest to me. I have my own girl that is a s skinny as a rake but she gets standard dog food with royal jelly for her coat, thats all. No bulking agents etc just food.

The use of bulking agents is what this thread is supposed to be about ...

Think Christine has loads of info now and it may be that because of the bitches early life there is nothing anyone can do that is not already being done. Had a GSD once who was much the same, nothing would put any cover on her bones and I must have tried most things. She did not suffer with the cold but was only ever 60% of the weight she should have been, but as happy as Larry and as thick as two short planks. Lived to 15.

I tried to edit my last post but was timed out. :( My use of the word 'you' was not aimed at anyone in particular and was merely use of the vernacular. Perhaps we should all be more formal and word our posts as "If a person wants to add a layer of fat to a dog then one should add fat to the diet ... ' etc.

A prime example of how easy it is to misunderstand the written word!
;)

lol to jeangenie. No worries pet, I am not getting at you, just can not be bothered rowing etc. Like i said i'm saying nothing more, your words get twisted etc here so i'm staying well away.
x

I have looked up the supplement quoted by Cooper and it is as follows:

Maltodextrin, medium chain triglycerides, pork stock, silica powder, glycerine powder, potas-sium citrate, cellulose powder, cooked chicken powder, sodium citrate, magnesium oxide, ferrous fumarate, D-ribose, dl-alpha toco-pheryl acetate, ascorbic acid, zinc oxide, copper gluconate, d-calci-um pantothenate, niacin, D-glu-cosamine hydrochloride, L-leucine, magnesium L-aspartate, L-glutathione, L-carnitine, L-gluta-mine,chondroitin sulfate, vitamin A palmitate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamin hydrochlo-ride, vitamin D3, potassium iodide, folic acid, cyanocobalamin and biotin.

the main ingredient of this supplement is sugar (maltodextrin), it also contains essential amino acids (available in all complete animal proteins), lots of extra minerals in unknow quantities which could potentially be harmful to dogs already receiving sufficient from whatever diet they happen to be on, synthetic vitamins as opposed to much better quality and more highly bio-available natural ones, cooked chicken powder and pork stock (?) and the bulking agent in this would be the cellulose powder (or grass/paper etc to you and me).

A lot of money for inferior ingredients of an indeterminate quantity that you could obtain a) via a good diet and b) from high grade natural sourced supplements from the chemist; no mention if the choindroitin sulfate is marine or bovine based and this and the glucosamine are there for the joints not bulking up.

I would not purchase anything that did not denote the exact quantities of each "valuable nutrient" as they may only be trace elements and basically pointless.

However, each to his own.