Just had a horrible thing happen and I'm still shaking with shock...I really feel like I need to tell someone about it so hope you all don't mind...

As most of you know, I'm a first-time dog owner and I have an 8 mo Great Dane puppy called Honey who is a very confident, full-on kind of dog. She is generally well-behaved but gets very excitable around other dogs - desperately wanting to play. She is very boisterous and plays very roughly but has never been aggressive towards another dog, except once when we passed a terrier and it attacked her unprovoked - and she retaliated. We managed to pull them apart before they really started fighting. The only other times are if we're out walking and we pass terriers or other small dogs and they start snarling and barking and lunging - she'll sometimes lunge for them too, even though they are obviously afraid of her.

Well, tonight, we went to Obedience class as usual and Honey was unusually bad. She is usually a star in class but tonight, she was all over the place: really excitable and disobedient. Then in the middle of class, the trainer put us into pairs to make us do a "Down" exercise of our dogs side by side, with each of us patting the other dog. He assigned me to a lady with a miniature poodle called Oscar who has a fear of big dogs and already reacted badly to Honey once a couple of lessons before when they met. The other owner and I both looked at each other nervously and then tried to get them into position. We managed to get them into a Down and started to pat each other's dogs - when suddenly, things went beserk. It all happened so fast that I couldn't really see what was happening but basically the poodle started snarling at Honey and then she just went for it! I was so shocked that I was unprepared and couldn't jerk her choke-chain in time, so she was on the poodle and there was the most horrific noise and dog-fight. I don't think I have ever been so terrified. I grabbed her choke chain and tried to haul her off the other dog but she was just too strong for me and that realisation made me panic even more. Then my shoes slipped on the wet grass and I fell on my back and it was the most horrible, scary feeling of total loss of control. Anyway, several trainers rushed in to help and managed to pull the 2 dogs apart. Neither dog was hurt (not even a scratch) thank God, but it was still so terrifying. What really upset me was that a trainer (not ours) started asking me aggressively if Honey did that all the time and I kept insisting that she never normally does that! They were also fussing over the poodle and asking if it was OK and generally acting like Honey was a vicious beast when she wasn't actually the one who started things. It's almost as if in a fight, the bigger dog is always to blame.

Not that I'm condoning her behaviour. I feel REALLY upset by that too. I know the other dog started it but why did she retaliate? She already knew that it was smaller and afraid of her, so why did she go for it? It's almost as if whenever she feels another dog is afraid of her, she gets "aggressive" towards it - why? Shouldn't she be more gentle because she knows they are afraid of her? Is she some kind of bully?
Everyone (other owners and trainers) keeps telling me that she is a very sweet, lovely-natured dog with a wonderful temperament (even after this fight) but now I don't know what to think! Is her behaviour excusable or does this mean she has a bad temperament?

It isn't just a size issue as one of her best friends from Obedience class is a Mini Schnauzer and they play wonderfully together - we even had him over to tea last weekend and they played in the house for hours, with no problems - and the size difference there is huge. Our trainer also told us last week to occasionally put her in a Down while she is playing with other dogs and force her to stay in a Down...and she accepted all this with no problem (even tonight), staying in a Down while a Husky and a Bullmastiff and her Mini Schnauzer friend jumped all over her - she just rolled onto her back...so he said that she doesn't really have a dominance problem is she is willing to do that. And we never have "dominance" issues with her at home: she is very polite, waits at doorways, always averts her eyes, sits for pats, takes things gently from hands, never mouths or barks at us, gives up at tug-o-war on command...and I really socialised her to death: I even took a month off work when she first came to just train her and take her out for socialisation. Plus we enrolled her in 2 different puppy classes to maximise her exposure to other puppies/dogs...so what did I do wrong???? :(
Why did she attack that poodle tonight?

Sorry for the long email but I just feel so traumatised by the whole experience, I really needed to tell someone. I came home and couldn't eat dinner - I just sat on the sofa shaking. My husband, who was watching the class, thinks I'm over-reacting. He says that Honey is basically a lovely dog but she has a strong personality and "won't take sh*t from anyone" and that's why it happened. He isn't bothered at all and says that I shouldn't take things so personally.

Please - anyone - tell me your throughts?? Is Honey a "bad" dog?

Hsin-Yi

I think you need a new trainer/class.

You obviously did not think what the trainer suggested was a good idea and so perhaps it would have been better to have not participated in this exercise.

I don't know much about Great Danes, except they are large :D, but I know that some breeds would not tolerate their owners patting another dog and being patted by another person, especially in this vulnerable position; not sure what this exercise is supposed to teach!

I think I remember from your post that this terrier might have had its space invaded and so from the terrier's point of view its behaviour was not "unprovoled"

Not sure why your dog needs to be on a choke chain, especially when it is obviously not helping you control your dog.

If she is too strong for you to manage at 8 months, how will you control her when she is fully mature?  I am not particularly concerned about your dog, more about your ability to handle a dog of this size and power.

In a class of novice owners this sort of exercise should be done one pair at a time with the trainer observing to see the reactions of the dpgs - otherwise it is just an exercise with nothing being gained from it, or as you found - problems.

If this is an unusual reaction on the part of Honey I would tend to suspect her season is due, her hormones are up the spout and she is not taking any stick from anyone.

Just out of curosity how many males and females were born (whether they lived or not) in her litter?

Thanks, Kerioak, for your post. You're right - I had my doubts about the trainer's instructions, especially as he seemed to pick a really wrong partner for us! Anyone could see that putting Honey and this poodle together was just a disaster waiting to happen - but I guess as a novice owner, you just put your faith in the trainers and assume they know what they're doing.

Her season can't be due as she is already spayed, so she can't still have hormones, can she? She seems to have the kind of personality where she is very confident and won't take stick from anyone anyway, although I wouldn't say that she is completely dominating - she will often submit to other dogs in play.

She comes from a litter of 7 and there were 5 males and 2 females. I researched loads of breeders and chose hers in the end because they did all the health screenings plus had dogs reknowned for their temperaments.

Hsin-Yi

I have so far found that my "stroppiest" bitches tend to come from litters where the males outnumber the females.  Just wonder if this is the case with other people and their dogs?

My last brood bitch was the only bitch in a litter of 7 pups - and she is the soppiest, friendliest dog (to other dogs as well as people) you could hope to meet!
:)

I think the presence of the treats may have contributed to both dogs reaction. I would try some sort of headcollar as if you have control of the head you have more chance of getting control of the rest of the dog.

Things like this happen with dogs. You are asking for advice it doesn't make you a bad owner or Honey a bad dog. Don't beat yourself up about it learn from it and move on
                                                                                                     Anne

Hi tohme - I'm worried about the same thing as you: not being able to control her, especially if I'm having trouble now at 8 months...but what should I do?? :(

You're right - the terrier probably was not "unprovoked" but I think it was very little provocation to be fair, as most dogs allow others to sniff them as they pass. But you're right - Honey may have been at fault there. But she certainly didn't thrust herself foward or try to jump on the terrier or anything. She just stopped as we passed it and they had a little sniff - and then the terrier went for her.

However, I do know a lot about Great Danes, having researched and spent a lot of time with them for 5 years before I got Honey and they are known as "gentle giants" - certainly not one of the more wary breeds. Yes, they can be prone to jealosy though and now that you mention it, I was feeding the poodle some of her treats just before he started snarling and she went for him. And as you say, I didn't really know what the exercise was for - but then you don't dare question the trainer too much, especially being a first-time dog owner : you just think they must know better!

I got the choke chain because I have having difficulty controlling her and all the Dane people (including her breeders) recommended it. In fact, it does give me effective control 95% of the time and she has improved greatly since I was shown how to use it correctly - but she IS physically too strong for me. But then I don't know many people who would be stronger than a full-grown Great Dane so surely control has to rely on more than physical strength?

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts
Hsin-Yi

Hi Hsin-Yi
Have you ever thought of using a Halti? I knew my GSD was getting to strong for me when in exited mode so started using a Halti. She hates it probably because she has to do as she is told, but it certainly did the trick. I am now in full control and feel much safer and I'm sure so is everyone else. 

Poor you - it's really scary when that sort of thing happens, isn't it? But rest assured, it is very common for a fearful dog to be 'picked on', because they display all the wrong body language, and other dogs find that worrying. It's very unfair of the other people to blame Honey just because of her size - people are far more accepting of appalling behaviour (even condoning it - people laugh indulgently when a chihuahua snarls at a labrador, but are horrified if the labrador snarls at the chi) of small dogs than large ones, and it makes me livid.

From what you say, Honey is a lovely dog, who is well trained and well socialised, and her reaction to the poodle's aggression was perfectly normal. What a stupid trainer to assign you to a dog with a fear of big dogs.

Hope you manage to calm yourself, and see this as an unfortunate incident, nothing more. The fact that neither dog was injured shows that it wasn't a serious fight. Good luck.

First of all, I hope you've had a stiff drink and calmed down now - and perhaps one for Honey too! :-)

Secondly, what happened sounds to be me like Honey reacted to the poodle which provoked her.  This was a potentially stressful situation in which the trainer (foolishly) put you both and neither dog coped well.  However, if Honey really had wanted to hurt the poodle, she would have done, as it was, there was not even a mark on the dog, therefore, Honey was merely warning off the poodle, so you do not have a viscious, aggressive dog.

I would say though, I do think you ought to find another trainer and also consider changing the choke chain - it's obviously not doing any good - how about a halti - do you have them in NZ (are you in NZ??)?

Sounds like you had a really horrible experience but at least no damage was done. Like you I'm a first time dog owner and I know it can seriously knock your confidence when something 'goes wrong'.  I'm no expert but I've read some books by Ian Dunbar - and it sounds like your dog has learned good bite inhibition ie it might've sounded like they were seriously damaging one another but infact no blood was drawn.

I hope you are feeling a bit better now - and don't feel you are the only one to get upset by things like this, the other day someone said that my dog was too boisterous for their dog to play with and that really upset me (I'm not normally that wimpy but it was the way they said ie like an accusation).

Don't be too hard on yourself - it's obvious that you are putting in a lot of effort with your dog.

Best wishes

Matilda

I feel for you... every little "episode" I have had raising my Labrador has at times had me in tears! I think what makes it worse is when she spend so much of your time and are so commited to training your dog and then something happens and you feel like the worst dog owner on the planet!!!

My lab is nearly two and she is a BIG lab. I am only 5ft 2 and just over 7 stone, she is only a stone or 2 away from me and if on a normal lead I can not hold her and have fallen flat on the floor a number of times. This is just not safe for either of us and I have been using a head collar on her for quite a while now to enable me to keep control of her. She does not like it, will often rub her face on the floor or try to paw it off and I wish I didn't have to use it, but the thought of her getting run over by a car is far worse than a little irritation on her part so we stick with it. Perhaps you could try one for Honey?

Was the class you were at a Puppy class or for dogs of all ages? I ask because if done properly, I think what your trainer was trying to achieve was a good thing. At the puppy classes I went to with Emmy we did similar things, although it was done with the trainers observing at all times and would have stepped in at the slightest hint of trouble. I think the reasoning is to expose your puppy to anything and everything at an early age, so that it does not become an issue the older they get. It is a shame that things got out of control and now it may have had the opposite effect!

I wouldn't stew on what has happened too much. Honey sounds like a great dog, and you a very caring owner. I would seriously consider buying a head collar though, my parents dog was attacked very badly by a Great Dane about 6 months ago. A man had him on a Flexi lead and had no control over him whatsoever, it took my Dad and the man to pull the Dane off my dads lab and his injuries were horrific. (He's fully recovered now though!)

One thing i do believe most strongly is that at the end of the day, we need to follow our gut instincts where our dogs are concerned. The trainer was at fault in the first instance to put you next to the poodle; perhaps the trainer felt it would help the dogs get on better, or had some other reason for putting you together, but it was bad judgement i feel.

I agree it is not fair to blame the bigger dog; if Honey was a small dog reacting to the poodle the others would probably have been feeling sorry for her instead! Really it's not a case of blame anyway; these things can happen and probably none of us have totally avoided the odd snap and grump.

Take heart :) i presume there was no injury, and it was just noise. If you can talk to the trainers, it may be an idea to ask them if they saw anything you didn't. But i suspect it was just the other poodle reacting and Honey just reacting to that which yo can't blame her for.

She sounds pretty normal to me.

Good luck with her
Lindsay
X

Did you have her spayed before a season. If so it may be a good idea to have her hormone levels checked. Some bitches still feel vunerable at times when they would have had a season even if they have been spayed. As far as choke/check chains go, I don't think it would have mattered what she was wearing. The problem I feel is with your trainer. They should know from experience how to read dogs and know which ones can be next to each other. Always question everything a trainer asks you to do. After all you are the person who paid for their advice. You sound very responsible to me, that is not supposed to sound patronising, just a hug to cheer you up.:) If you are in any doubt maybe a change of training venue might be a good idea or put more space between yourself and another dog so that you can read the situation first. That trainer obviously couldn't.:(

For some reason little dogs are intimidated by Danes. Willis spends his life avoiding small dogs because they always act like they want to kill him...and bark and yap and grow at him and he tends to just stand and look down on them knowingly.... however, on more than one occasion one has bitten him and he is now very very wary of smaller dogs. Also, don't forget, Danes are fiercely protective of their owners and I suspect that came into play with this little incident.

Its something you need to be aware of for the future really :)

As for control...well, you'll only ever have so much control over a dane...but you may find that as Honey grows she is less inclined to leave you anway.

No offence to little dogs but I find the same as Chloe, most little dogs get really tetchy with my two newfoundlands.  They too are gentle Giants but whilst my boy will flee home from the park in absolute panic if a little dog so much as growls at him my bitch, Lucy would do exactly as Honey did.  I dont think my Lucy is aggressive in the slightest, but as you already noticed the big dog gets the blame (especially a ten ton black one!) so I tend to keep her on the lead if a little dog appears that doesnt know her, just to be on the safe side.  Although now she is older (nearly 3) she avoids the minnies herself!

No amount of socialisation and training is ever going to change a dog's natural behaviour. I would imagine that the poodle was probably eliciting some threatening behaviour that we would not be aware of and honey perhaps felt threatened herself and felt a need to dog fights are all noise and althought they look terrifying many do not end in injuries. I don't think your trainer was right to blame any dog, they were acting as dogs do. I have attended many training classes and sometimes fights do kick off, even with the best intentions of the owners, my trainer simply calmly seperates them and that is the end of the matter, no dog is to blame, particularly if the poodle had shown herself to be fearful to start with. My dog is very bad with some other dogs, but she is still allowed to go to training and my trainer knows to keep us seperated from certain dogs. Honey sounds like a well adjusted puppy, who at 8 months is probably starting adolescence, the most difficult time for any dog no matter what size. My dog because she is fearful often tries to start fights, and sometimes you find the most well behaved dogs will turn if threatened, no matter how soppy they usually are. Imagine the same situation with humans. If you were sat in the park and someone came up and starting threatening you, most people (particularly out going types who are not scared) are likely to retaliate in defence.
Firstly i would reccomend a more sympathetic trainer who is more in tune to dogs. You should never have been paired up in the first place, most good trainers would've already read that in the dogs body language, and blaming a dog or owner is not going to get anywhere. Secondly i think perhaps you should try the head collar again. It takes some time for the dog to get used to, but i still use if for my collie and also used it for my retriever when she was a very strong puppy. IMO even with the best will in the world there are going to be times when a big puppy is going to be too strong for the owner to handle. I found this with a small retriever, i can't imagine what it would've been like with a bigger dog. GIven your situation tonight, if she had been wearing a headcollar, it would've probably been slightly easier to separate them. With a choke chain, whilst fighting if she feels pain (i.e. caused by the tightening chain) she was likely to blame the other dog and fight harder.

"For some reason little dogs are intimidated by Danes. "

Perhaps it's because they are BIG!   LOL.  Some little dogs will turn on the vicious act around large dogs in an attempt to scare them away.  If they get too close, they will lunge at them, also for the same reason.   It's understandable behaviour, if you look at the world from their perspective. 

It's not just little dogs that have a fear-induced aggressive response to larger dogs.  Last week I was astounded to see an English Setter, who I thought to be very placid and gentle, lunge at a year old Newfie.   The Newfie was not even facing the setter and was quite some distance away.  The Newfie's owner, one of my neighbors, said that it happens quite often that other dogs are afraid of the Newfie because he is so large.

Stacey

I was walking my friends two cockers this morning and they went for a mastiff, bless him he was really scared of them and wouldnt go past them on the footpath :(

It is true though, these cockers only seem to bark at bigger dogs and they are obviously scared because if the dog comes over to them they yelp and hide :D :D

Hi! actually think this could develop into a problem if not handled correctly. i think you need to socialise your girly with lots of friendly dogs so she dosent think everyone is going to have a go.

i suspect both you & the poodle handler were "uptight" at doing the exercise & the dogs picked up on this.

can the dogs wwear haltis etc to your club? as this would give you more control & enable you to turn her head out of trouble.

im not very impressed with your trainer,i must say. next time you feel its a not a good idea to do a particlar exercise,MAKE sure you say so. are there any other dog clubs near you?

Obviously its because they are BIG :rolleyes: That doesn't excuse vile, nasty little dogs racing up to my dog, who is on a lead and calm, snapping at him and jumping up and biting his face. It also doesn't excuse the STUPID little dog owners who amble up wabbing on about how "mitsy doesn't like big dogs" to pick up their pain in the neck ankle biter and laugh whilst it then has a height advantage from their protective arms and barks and snaps and lunges harder

Thank you everyone for your kind replies and for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I really appreciate it .

I am feeling a little better today although still quite "upset" about what happened but able to view it a bit less emotionally - although I had a pretty bad night's sleep!
I agree with everyone - I do think the trainer was at fault. The class we're at is part of an Obedience club which has several different classes running simultaneously on Mon nights. We started  in the Puppy Class - was there for 8 weeks and was very happy and impressed - and have just graduated and moved into this class, which is the "Domestic Companion Class", which I thought would be good for teaching Honey the basic manners for being a good pet. (It also works towards the Canine Good Citizen title, believe it or not! And that is something I really want to achieve). The dogs in this class are all different ages, although most of them are older than Honey - 1 or 2 yrs, some even older. In the previous Puppy Class, the trainer seemed a lot better - more aware and more caring and although it was a smaller class, there were 2 assistants to help. This class, however, is HUGE (about 20 dogs last night) and with just the one trainer - who isn't very impressive. He hardly comes over to interact with you and your dog - he tends to stand in the middle of the circle and shout orders and seems very cold and unapproachable - I find him quite intimidating. He certainly didn't seem to care last night that a big fight broke out in the middle of his class.
However, I have to admit, in spite of what happened, I do still feel that a group class is beneficial as I think it's important for the dog to be trained with the distractions of other dogs, etc (as well as the socialisation). I'm not sure if I will stay in this class now - although I want to stay with the club but the only other class we could join is the formal Obedience class, which I don't want to do yet. So I'm not sure what to do...but I will sure as hell be nervous when we go to class next Monday! No, no - I know I shouldn't be as it will carry to Honey and I will try my best. My husband and I actually take turns doing the classes so it's his turn next week, which is probably a good thing.

I must add that we are not one of those people who skip classes or don't pay attention during class - we're probably one of the few people in the original puppy course that didn't miss a single session and we both come as a couple to take part in her training and we are always focused on the trainer and practise all the homework set for 5 mins everyday - and we always arrive early and hang around later to ask questions and give Honey extra time to socialise with the other dogs. In fact, Honey is usually the star pupil and often called out to demonstrate exercises because she is really good and focused and does most of the exercises better than all the other dogs twice her age. It's one reason why it was such a shock and so upsetting what happened last night.

Anyway, I am feeling better about Honey and not panicking so much that she is an aggressive dog. But I am still worried about controlling her - that was the scariest thing: the total loss of control. If I can't do it at 8 months, what happens when she gets older and bigger? By the way, I HAVE tried the head collar (before the choke chain) and found that it wasn't very effective - partly because I wasn't comfortable using it and partly because Honey would start twisitng and bucking and turning around to face me when she met another dog, which meant that I couldn't pull effectively on the headcollar to control her - it just made me feel more nervous, whereas I found the choke-chain (used correctly) gave me more feeling of control. It IS effective 95% of the time but when something happens suddenly like yesterday and I'm shocked, then it wasn't much good! But I will follow your suggestions and perhaps try the head-collar again. Someone said to me that my confidence using the equipment is the most important thing and so I have to find what I am most comfortable with as it doesn't matter what I use, really - it's my confidence that will make the difference.

I'm paranoid now about her meeting any other dog - I didn't take her for a walk today (weather too bad) but I'll definitely have to tomorrow - and I'll be so nervous thinking about possibly meeting other dogs! But I know it's important that we get over it: like falling off a horse- they say you should just get back on immediately or you'll never ride again.

Anyway, thanks again everyone -
Hsin-Yi

Hsin-Yi
           Is there anyone who could go with you either with a dog that you won't worry about or even without a dog. I know how you feel but try not to be too uptight about it as that's going to transfer to Honey. Wish I lived nearer as having had a dog that wasn't of the best with other dogs I have great sympathy with you. If it's any consolation I would come out with you quite happily with my dogs and I'm not just saying that cause I live in Scotland.

Just had a look at what I've written and I'm NOT saying I think Honey isn't good with other dogs just that the experiences i've had allow me to understand a little bit how you feel.
                                                                               Anne 

there are lots of different types of "headgear" available! you might not have found the right one for you yet!

think of it this way,how many horses are lead by chains on there necks? how much control do you think theyd have a large animal? well YOU have a large animal!!!
my old club was a slip chain club & i trained on them for 5years,BELIEVE me you have more control with a headcollar! id never go back to training on a chain now!
im imagining your dog lunging suddenly & damaging her windpipe cos a danes alot of weight!

Hsin-Yi
This dog certainly seems to be providing you with an 'emotional roller-coaster'!

I'm not really convinced by all this excessive socialisation for dogs, it seems to throw up as many issues as it resolves! Not all humans can get on - often for no obvious reason, so I cant see why dogs should be any different.

I've got a hunch that the way dogs interact has got a lot more to do with their innate character and the way that they are trained / handled than the extent and method of their socialisation. (However I would never advocate NO socialisation)

I've personally got nothing against choke chains (when used by someone that knows what they are doing - fairly rare) but they're not much use when trying to split up a fight. I remember the turmoil you went through trying to decide between chain and head-collar previously, so I'm not going down that road again!

I think your problem has got more to do with lack of confidence and inexperience than using the wrong 'tools'. I must admit reading your posts i am getting a bit concerned that you have an 'accident waiting to happen'. Its quite an art handling a large lively dog, and teaching someone else to do it can be very tricky! As i've posted before, some people can just do it, some people can learn and some will never be able to handle a dog like this safely. (Hopefully you are in the middle group!)

From your posts I'm not particularly concerned by Honey's temperament, but possibly that she may just be a bit too much for you. (I hope not!) I dont know much about the growth pattern for a dane, but I would expect that shes got plenty more growing to do and quite a while longer in the 'teenage' phase.

I really hope you can make progress, you certainly deserve to with the amount of effort that you put in! :-) Try and remember, dog owning is supposed to be fun! ;-)

Best wishes

Hi
I would start looking for a different trainer 20 seems to be alot for one person there are 4 dogs in our class and Caroline(trainer) doesnt seem to have anymore 6 in any of the classes that she runs.
I find that being a first time owner is scary and being scared that you wont be able to control a large dog is horrible but there is hope a good dog trainer is worth their weight in gold, I have found that with Caroline she helps us all cope with horrible suitations and helps build your confidence now I feel that I better prepared for things. We are lucky because if something happens between classes that I dont know how to deal with I can phone her and ask for advice.
What area are you in maybe someone on here may be able to recommend(sp) a dog trainer.
good luck
Mary

I too am becoming worried for Hsin-yi, because she is obviously putting so much into trying to do the best by Honey, and is becoming upset and stressed by the experience, when, as Havoc says, having a dog is supposed to be fun.  I worry that she is worrying about stuff which is normal dog behaviour, and each hurdle for her is denting her confidence and making her doubt her ability to cope, thereby setting up a vicious circle for her.  I believe that she can learn to trust herself to be able to control Honey, but that her confidence needs boosting as she keeps hitting lows.

I wonder, can anyone suggest a good, readable book which outlines dog behaviour in a sensible straighforward way, which would demonstrate for her that dogs will be dogs and give her a deeper understanding of how dogs behave, thereby giving her knowledge which will help boost her confidence in her ability to read situations and react in a calm way?

Hsin-yi, sorry to talk as if you aren't here, but it was easier to get my thoughts over by writing as above :)  I understand completely where you are coming from with your fears - I have two very large boys, who could bowl me over at the drop of a hat if they chose to (they could also bowl over 6 feet 3 inches Other Half too), but over time I have made myself confident that I am in control and because of this I can easily walk them, both leads in one hand. My confidence is boosted by knowing them, and being able to observe situations and take appropriate actions if need be.  I've had my share of worries, but I want to reassure you that you can learn to cope with Honey; please, take a deep breath, tell yourself that you are doing a good job with her and try to build your confidence up.  Wait and see, in a year's time you will be on here, looking back and offering advice to others from the basis of your experience of getting through this :)

Good luck and best wishes

Lesley

THe Culture Clash and Dogs are from Neptune both by Jean Donaldson.  As far as I am concerned if there was only 1 book that you ever bought on dogs the Culture Clash would be it.  Very down to earth, accessible, no scientific jargon or "dog language" she is hilariously funny and tells it like it is.  I know of no novice or experienced handler that has not benefited from this book, and in fact a hell of a lot of dogs have probably had their lives improved after their owners have read it and digested it.  Full of tips and hints on how to handle different dogs in different situations; what a thoughtful and constructive idea LF!

Thank you Tohme, I knew someone would come up trumps with a good book for Hsin-yi :D  I think if you read such a book Hsin-yi, it will help you to put things into perspective and you will feel so much better for the knowledge that it will give you :)  Please keep us posted on how you are getting on :)

Lesley

I agree with Tohme, 'the Culture Clash' is a great book. I'm re-reading it for the 5th time this week and I'm still finding it very useful. I also like Suzanne Clothier's 'Bones would rain from the sky', but if you want practical no nonsense advice, the culture clash is your best bet.
Hsin-yi you will be fine - you're working so hard it will pay dividends, just hang in there :)

Owninig a dog for the first time is definately a learning curve! I do agree though that 20 dogs is definately too much for one class. There is no way that any trainer can give each dog the attention they deserve and need, and that is most probably why she didn't notice an accident waiting to happen. The most we have at our class is about 10 when everyone turns up and even then this can be quite chaotic. I think you sound very much like me, i am one of the more dedicated members of our club, and the best advice i can give is read. Over the last two years i have read so many books, watched so many dog training videos and surfed the net, but i still have so much more to learn. And whilst reading about something can't actually take the place of practical experience, you can at least see why something happened and look for a solution. The first year is so difficult but things do get better, as long as you work at it, which from the sounds of it you will.

Hi Hsinyi

Glad to hear you're feeling a bit better about this incident - they can really knock your confidence at the time!

I read with disbelief the way you were instructed to do the exercise you described - it sounds a recipe for disaster if you have either a protective, possessive, or fearful dog. 

A similar way of carrying out this is for the trainer or asistant to hold one handler's dog while they go over to another dog and stroke or pet it.  It does highlight if your dog is troubled by you being with another dog and also it gets the dog being handled used to people other than it's owner handling it (good when it comes to visits to the vets).  Never have I seen it done by the method you described.

After having read your second post I can see why the trainer requested you all to work in this manner - TIME.  If only one instructor were available for a class of 20 handlers and dogs you would have achieved nothing else that session if they were to hold a dog while the handler went off to someone else's!!  This is bad planning and if only one trainer is available, I personally feel the class should be of a maximum of 10 dogs and handlers at the level you are at. 

If much higher levels of obedience have already been attained within a group then obviously the class size can be larger.   Don't blame yourself or your dog for this incident - it was an accident waiting to happen.

Just wanted to say thank you again to everyone for your comments and suggestions - and support! Also, for the book suggestions, which I will certainly look up!

I have decided that the problem is really with my confidence (aside from the trainer!) and so I've got to really try and believe myself, believe that I CAN control Honey and manage situations - rather than constantly worry that I won't be able to. I know some of you worry that I won't ever learn to be able to cope with a giant dog but I don't think it's helpful for me to think about that - I've got to really believe that I can!

Thank you to everyone who gave me encouragement and reassured me that I'll get there. I have taken her out for walks alone the last 2 days and I have not avoided other dogs. Everything went really well - today, Honey even sat and waited nicely until a Boxer came up to her - and then sniffed nicely. She also backed off when she tried to play with him and he snarled at her and I had no problem pulling her away. It sounds silly but one positive episode like that and I felt my confidence returning tenfold. And I was so proud of her for her good behaviour. We also met a young Lab who was keen to play so I let her off leash to play with him and she had a great time - and no snarls or anything. I guess it's all in choosing the right dog for her to interact with. I have also tried the Gentle Leader again and although I still find it very awkward to use, I will persevere with it - maybe mix it with the choke chain and use the GL when I'm on my own and feel to need more secure of my control over her.

I think the other thing is - once I accepted that her behaviour is normal dog behaviour and not a result of something I did wrong or her temperament, then everything got easier. Everyone - both on this forum and friends and even the vet - has been telling me that she just behaved like a normal dog and I was naive to expect her to behave any otherwise. I was also naive to think that if I socialised her enough and trained her enough and made sure that I got her from good breeders, then she would never act "aggressive" ever (!) - but of course, even the sweetest dog will act like a dog in certain situations and - most importantly - there's nothing wrong with that! I noticed on one of the other posts about Obi, the Rottweiler, that the owner said he sometimes goes for other dogs when out walking and they annoy him...and she said it so matter-of-factly - and I thought to myself, "That's the attitude I've got to have! It's no big deal if Honey retaliates occasionally or gets into a bit of a tussle: these things happen! What about all the people whose dogs are snarling at Honey...surely they should be the ones worried about their dogs behaviour, not me?!"

Anyway, so I'm just going to treat this whole thing as a learning experience about dogs and move on. I know there will still be situations in future where I might "lose control" of Honey but it won't be the end of the world. I'll just have to deal with it when it happens. (I'm sure I'll get all upset and worried again though!). I'm a very neurotic worrier by nature - and also a perfectionist and a control freak - in all aspects of life, not just to do with Honey, so I probably make a terrible puppy owner!! :)

Thanks again everyone -
Hsin-Yi

Yes Hsinyi, it is normal dog behaviour.  You can go your whole lifetime with a calm, gentle dog who has been well socialised and never felt under threat and you would believe your dog is devoid of aggression.  But put that dog in a different environment where it came under constant threat and it would react to defend and protect itself.  All dogs have the capability to use their teeth but not all are put in situations where they feel it necessary to use them.

Aggressive behaviour to dogs is a means of communicating that they feel unhappy about a situation they are in - it is nothing more than that.  Some will then run off if the threat remains some will increase the level of aggression until forced to fight if need be.  You only have a dog with a problem if he/she flies in aggressively at anything and everything and the level of aggression is out of his/her or your control.

I think expecting a dog never to show any "aggression" at all ever is about as unrealistic as expecting humans never to lose their tempers with their partners, children, animals, friends, be p*ssy on the phone, send an irate letter or mouth an obscenity at a driver; expectation management is key to all areas of life; setting unrealistic expectations is detrimental to all concerned.

I'm sorry to have to say (actually I'm not sorry at all), but my dogs have never shown any aggression to others, human or canine or animal come to that. I think the way they are brought up and treated has a lot to do with the out come of a way a dog reacts to people and situations. I think the way the great dane was expected to cope was dreadful and down to the way the instructor of the class asked people to do things. We have 'aggressive' dogs come to our classes but they soon learn that it is not in their interests to be so. Change your trainer/instructor and things will improve if they are aware of what they are asking of the owners, and dogs. :(