In 2 weeks I shall be collecting my new 9 week old puppy.She will not have started her vaccinations but will be booked in to start as soon as possible. One of my older dogs is due for their booster jab and I wondered if there was any risk to the puppy from a dog that has recently had their booster i.e is any part of the vaccine live and shed by the dog as can happen with some human vaccinations. Thank you
Jackie

I'm taking one of mydogs for her booster tonight and have booked my pup in for her first jab at the same time - they took the booking without saying it was a problem...will tell you more when I return!

Have been to vets and was told it won't be a problem. And they were so brave!!

Would be interested to know what exactly won`t be a problem according to your vet P/nurse. Research done by Dodds & others recommends pups initial vax & older dogs boosters not being given at the same time.
What vax did he use, just out of interest?

Christine, Spain.

Now you scaring me! She used Nobivac, I asked if it was safe to vac both at the same time and she said it wasn't a problem. I'm now hoping she's right! (I have been using the same practice for 20 years and have never had cause for concern...)

Don`t wish to scare you at all, maybe you should have asked her *Do modified live/attenuated vaccines shed in the environment & if they do, wouldn`t that be a risk/how safe would it be, to puppy having first vax as immunity is not immediate?* Sometimes you need to ask direct questions.
Christine, Spain.
ps think you might like to show her intervets site, link below :)
http://www.intervet.co.uk/species_pages/dog/news.asp

Would someone like to balance this argument and add the consequences of not vaccinating your puppies please?

I`m questioning the timing of boostering an older dog at the same time as giving puppies their first vax Admin, not of not vaccinating puppies.

Christine, Spain.

Vaccines do shed into environment, dogs who have the intr-nasal kennel cough vacc are infectious for up to 14dys. So yes there are dangers from virus being shed from newly vaxed animals, whether the vet will tell you this you`ll only know if you ask him. Only rabies is not a live vaccine, nearly all of the others that are used now are mlv.

Christine, Spain.

Intervet vaccines are now only needed every 3yrs not annualy, this is on their website

could you give me their site address pls

Intervets site for info on duration of their vaccines
http://www.intervet.co.uk/species_pages/dog/news.asp

Christine, Spain.

>Vaccines do shed into environment, dogs who have the intr-nasal kennel cough vacc are infectious for up to 14dys. So yes there are dangers from virus being shed from newly vaxed animals

So far from unvaccinated dogs being a threat, it's actually the vaccinated ones that are a danger?

Kath

Only recently-vaccinated ones. Just as newly-vaccinated babies shed the polio virus into their nappies ... but how many people catch polio that way?

*being shed from newly vaxed animals* Thats what I said J/G ;) :D
Tho we do know that the parvo virus, once in the environment can last for up to a year.
Haven`t researched polio but think that mothers were adviced not to change nappies of newly vaccinated babes weren`t they? Or something like that. :)

Christine, Spain.

I remember hearing of a case a few years ago where a man caught polio from contact with the contents of his newly-immunised baby's nappy (he had been immunised as a child himself, but as we know, immunisation wanes if not challenged! ;) ). It's rare, but it happens. You have to take the risk, because you can't not change a baby's nappies for several days ...

Ooooh J/G you know what Imean, changing nappies with care or gloves or something! :D :D
*but as we know, immunisation wanes if not challenged* We also know that vaccines don`t always work 100% of the time either!

Christine, Spain.

<<*being shed from newly vaxed animals* Thats what I said J/G>>

I know! I was replying to Kath's post, emphasising what you'd said ... ;)

Oh!!! :D

Christine, Spain.

Sorry, that's me causing the misunderstanding. I should have said "newly-vaccinated" in my post. :)

Kath.

>Just as newly-vaccinated babies shed the polio virus into their nappies ... but how many people catch polio that way?

But a baby's nappy being carefully changed by one person and disposed of is a lot less risky than a doggy doo left lying around in the environment for dogs to sniff at. :)

>Only recently-vaccinated ones.

Sorry, I meant to say newly-vaccinated.

Kath.

<<But a baby's nappy being carefully changed by one person and disposed of is a lot less risky than a doggy doo left lying around in the environment for dogs to sniff at.>>

Which is why we keep puppies away from public areas till their own immunity has kicked in. ;) Where people have other adult dogs and a new puppy I would expect them to keep the area where the pup has access clean anyway, clearing away the other dog's poo to eliminate the risk.
:)

I was originally talking of dogs in general really, as some folk comment about owners of unvaccinated dogs relying on the immunity of vaccinated ones, but where puppies are concerned, yes I agree with you Jg. :)

Viruses etc don`t know the difference between private & public places, they can be brought in on shoes,cars, clothes, on the air, so very many different ways! And thats not me saying this, it`s what Merial, the manufactures of vaccines that were used on my pups, told me face to face! It`s a no win situation as far as I`m concerned, it`s a matter of luck if the vaccs work, if the pups immune system is primed, if it doesn`t come into contact with one of the viruses from many sources, if if if. And god forbid anything goes wrong with any of their vaccines, they real out all those things I`ve just written rather than accept the fact that things can & do go wrong after vaccination more than is known. Oh last but not least, you get prove it! Just look how long they`ve been saying boosters are needed every yr, now one of them says only 3yrs.

Christine, Spain.

Think that`s the only conclusion to be drawn Kath ;) :)
I know when Merial came to see me to try & explain how my puppies got parvo,(my older dogs had been boostered at the same time time puppies got first vax) when I brought this up with them it was one of the very few issues they couldn`t give me an answer to & sat in silence.

Christine, Spain.

Thanks for all your help I thought that their must be some risk to the puppy from a recently boosted dog. As it happened I had to see our vet today with one of the dogs who had a bit of a mishap last night and I asked her about the timiming of the booster. She also said there was a risk to a young/newly vaccinated pup from a recently boostered older dog and recommended that if I have the older dog boosted now he will not be a risk in 2 weeks time as by then the vaccine will have taken full effected and he will not be sheding anything to cause problems.
Jackie

Glad to hear your vet was honest with you Jackie & not do them at the same time :) By the way, you know Intervet vax, nobivac, only need doing every 3yrs now ;) :)

Christine, Spain.

I've emailed intervet asking for clarification on the risk to my pup and any precautions they recommend. If they confirm there is a risk I'll be paying my vet a visit Monday morning! Thanks for the link Christine.
I thought that you still needed to vaccinate every year for leptospirosis though.

Most definitely every year for leptospirosis. Maybe every 9 months would be better. It depends on the risk in your locality.

Thanks Jeangenie.
Why does this post say it's got 28 posts when I can only see 11? How do I get to view the others?

How odd! I can see them all. If you go to Active Topics you should be able to see them all from there.
:)

J/G even the manufacturers don`t recommend 9mth for Lepto!!!

Christine, Spain.

Maybe not, though as it has been shown (to my satisfaction anyway ;) ) that the lepto vaccine only lasts about that long, it would seem a sensible thing to do in areas of high risk. As lepto is a zoonosis, my instinct (whether right or wrong) is to err on the side of caution.
:)

To err on the side of caution to the detriment of the dogs!!!!!!!!! And I`m so glad a lot of vets don`t think like that & are questioning the validity of it! And they don`t go on instinct but independent scientific research
Christine, Spain.

To the detriment of the dogs? Where they live 3 years over breed average? I don't think that's too bad, to be honest.
:)

Well guess you`d just say my pups unlucky then J/G, so unlucky one of them never even got to live beyond 12wks as a direct result of his first puppy vax & the others suffered dreadfully. I`ll never know how long if he`d have had a long life. And it`s well known theres quite a few other breeds are not making it into long life.

Have you read the link I gave from Our Dogs? Tell me what do you think of all those vets opinions based on scientific research done by very respected uni`s which is not even being done in UK! of the Lepto vax?

Kansas University reports the Lepto vaccine is THE major cause of vax reactions, so much so they consider the benefits far outweigh the risks. It is no longer considered a core vaccine & they even recommend it not be given to puppies.......The Lepto vaccine does not protect the dog from being infected with the disease......Hence there seems to be/have a real risk of vaccinated *healthy dogs* dogs shedding the spirochetes so possibly posing a threat to other dogs & humans......There is little protection against serovars..........

Christine, Spain.

Christine, I know you had a terrible time with your puppies, and I can quite understand your natural antipathy to vaccines (just like my antipathy to 'routine' surgery) - I'm certainly not criticising you for it! But, tragic though it was, it was very unusual, and I still firmly believe that vaccines save many times more lives than they harm. For that reason I will continue to have all my dogs vaccinated. We all have to do what believe is the right thing. On this subject you and I will have to agree to disagree!
:)

No J/G, in all honesty I`d don`t think you can understand, to have a litter of healthy beautiful pups that you`ve done your utmost for, pulled out every & all stops for,then to watch them suffer & die as a DIRECT cause of vaccine that was supposed to be the very thing that would PREVENT disease & THEN have to listen to manufacturers & vet try wriggle out of it, then tell me prove it!!!! Not only did it NOT prevent disease, it GAVE another disease to 1 puppy. And it`s NOT so unusual at all. As I found out when it happened to my pups & started making enquires, there`s an awful lot of other pups/dogs its happened to. It`s something that only seems to come out when it happens to you personally.

But like you say, we`ll agree to disagree :) Though it makes me feel better knowing it`s not only me your agreeing to disagree with, it`s all those other expert vets/immunoligists etc ;) :D

Christine, Spain.

I agree Christine, it's not unusual and I expect it's much more common than it appears. Vets won't want to admit to it, neither will the vaccs manu's. Reactions don't always happen immediately so a link may be missed but even if an owner is convinced that is what killed their pet/made it ill, they won't necessarily realise there is a procedure they can use to report adverse reactions. As far as I know vets in the UK aren't obliged to report them so many will remain unreported.

Kath.

Hi Kath, going by the amount of people I`ve spoken to & the ones that have actually made a sarrs the 2 don`t correspond at all! And as you say very few people know they can make it themselves. Vets aren`t legally rquired no, but they are *actively encouraged to report them* by the RCVS. Manufacturers on the other hand, of vaccs/chemicals/drugs etc are legally required to make one, once they know a suspected reaction has happened.

Christine, Spain.

Tell me J/G which form of serovar causing lepto & how prevalent is it in UK & which one are the vaccines used for? I`d be interested to know.

Christine, Spain.

P/nurse, heres a link about some vets opinions of Lepto based on research done in the States. A lot of vets don`t use it over there.
http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/May2004/News140504/booster.htm

Christine, Spain.

another link
http://www.dogs4sale.com.au/AAHA_Special_Report.htm

Yes my vets are very good like that. They don't use Nobivac for their vaccinations but another one ( sorry can't remember the name at the moment) which they can give to puppies earlier and also protects against gastroenteritis, which has been a big problem in this area.They are keeping up to date with the vaccination debate but at the present it is still being recommended to do every year with the vaccine they use. So I am following their advise as I would never forgive myself if I didn't have the dogs done and they caught one of these diseases when I could have prevented it. Hopefully though other companies will follow Nobivacs line in due course if appropiate
Jackie

If I was a betting person P/nurse I`d put a bob or 2 on them being not far behind :D

Christine, Spain.

Thought you might be interested in the response from Intervet - here's a copy of the email they sent me today!
I can confirm that your dog will not shed live virus for 14 days post vaccination. If we deal specifically with parvovirus which I presume is you main concern, the vaccine causes 'sterilising immunity'. This means that if an individual encounters live parvovirus, then not only will the immunity stimulated by the vaccine prevent clinical disease, but it will also prevent shedding of the virus. This also means that if an individual is challenged with a vaccine, vaccinal virus will not be shed either. It is important to note that vaccinal virus, by its very nature, is non pathogenic and will not cause clinical disease even in an unvaccinated individual.

In summary, there are no concerns with regards to any component in the vaccine.

Intervet UK Ltd

That seems categorical. Recently vaccinated dogs are not spreading disease.

Have a look what Merck Vet Manual says J/G, also seems catogorical ;) :)

Christine, Spain.

Hmmm interesting P/nurse, cos it`s very definately not what Merck vet Manual has to say.

*Merck Veterinary Manual, p 1496,
under the heading
'Routine Immunologic Procedures':
".. Vaccination is an important adjunct in the control of many livestock diseases, but the immunity is relative and may be overcome by massive exposure, by moderate contact with a highly virulent strain of the infecting agent, or by stress, such as poor environmental conditions. Vaccination should not be considered a panacea in disease control and it should be supplemented with sanitary and management measures designed to prevent the introduction and spread of infection.
When an effective immunizing agent is injected, the tissues react to form immune bodies against the agent.   This reaction may be accompanied by signs of distress, and these signs may be exaggerated if the animal is not in a
state of good health when vaccinated.  If a live vaccine is employed in an unhealthy animal, it may actually produce the disease it was intended to prevent."

And this:
..."When live, unmodified, fully virulent viruses are used, it should be remembered that the vaccinated animal may become a carrier and shed the virus for varying periods.  This means that susceptible stock should not have contact with vaccinates until the period of elimination has passed."*

Could you please let us have the details who & when sent & signed the email from intervet & date. Also copy of your email of what you actually asked them.
It could just be their particular vaccine only related to parvo, there are a lot of other manufactures making vaccines all to different diseases. I`ll do some more research & let you know what I come up with.

Christine, Spain.

Mrs Paula Boyden BVetMed MRCVS
Small Animal Veterinary Adviser
Intervet UK Ltd
responded to my email on 28.6.04 (copy is above). I can't copy mt original mail to them as I used their contact page but it asked what if any risks were there to my pup from having first vaccination at the time of older dogs booster, does the dog shed live virus, and what precautions I should take if there was any risk however small. I also told them it was the nobivac she had had.
What year was your vet manual published? Perhaps things have moved on since it was written.
hanks for all your help though, I'd be interested in the results of your research.:)

Merck Vet Manual is online. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp
It`s not my vet manual at all but the one vets call their bible & what they use for reference :) Think it`s updated yearly, but not sure.
Will let you know what I find out, might take awhile tho!

Christine, Spain.

Forgot to ask, how come you had your dog boostered when Intervet (nobivac) say it`s not needed?

I asked her about the three yearly booster but she said that some bugs need covering every year so followed vet's advice...
she told me to have this one and then will only vax for the necessary ones each year...
have I been had?  :)
Will check out the link thanks