Hi all

I am relatively new to the showing world, so I'm a wee bit miffed to say the least.  I have been showing my girl at open show level for the past few months with some really good results, we never come home without anything and she has had Best of Breed 4 times now. She has beaten dogs with reserve CC's. I went to my first Champ show at the weekend and she wasn't even considered, I'm not moaning that she wasn't looked at because obviously she is not going to be every Judge's Type. The thing that upset me was the fact that my breeder said she would probably be better showing her for me as her "Face" is known. I have nothing against Judges putting up the type they like but after some research yesterday it was very clear looking at the results the only people getting put up were those who judge at Champshow level. My breeder also told me that I'd need to be in the breed and showing for at least 10 yrs before I would be considered for anything more that a VHC as the first 4 places usually go to faces. This sounds as thought I think my dog is the best thing ever, I don't mean it to come across like that as I know my dog has faults like every other one but after being around horses and dogs for most of my life I'm pretty good at looking at conformation and after studying the breed standard long and hard I really can't see why some of these dogs are being put up. I admit I would be happy to take a few of them home as they really are outstanding examples of the breed, I would just like a fair crack of the whip as my girl is very nice and I feel she deserves a chance regardless who is handling her.
Moan over sorry about the length of this.

I've been trying to register but my comp keeps moaning about "COOKIES" not being enabled.

Sal

Hi Sal,

would be interesting to know what breed? In my experience judges at open shows rarely pick the best dogs there as they generally only have a vague idea of the breed standard, whereas under a breed specialist at a champ show, results are usually very different. I have friends who have a couple of poor dogs who do really well at open shows so they started entering champ shows thinking they were going to win everything, and have yet to be placed, and frankly never will. They are now completely dissallusioned and are blaming 'judges, faces,' etc. etc., when actually its their dogs that are at fault. I'm not saying this is what has happened to you, its just a common scenario. The fact is face judging does go on, but its also a fact that a lot of the time the faces have the best dogs! Your breeder sounds experienced enough to know what shes talking about when she says your dog is good, so don't give up after one show! Believe me, if your dog's good enough it will get there in the end, just takes a lot longer for a non-face sadly. And a little bit of advice, don't let your breeder show your dog for you, believe me, the pleasure of getting your first CC, handling your dog yourself and knowing that the dog won on its merits, rather than who was on the end of the lead, makes it all worth it. Best of luck, let us know how you get on!

Hi Sal :-)  VERY  interesting post, thank you :-) Try to join the forum we will ALL make you very welcome won't we everyone :-P. Don't be disheartened with your showing, if your dogs are good, well presented and handled you will do well some of the time. Different judges have slightly different preferences in style and form and the difference between your dog and the winning dogs may be very small and not apparent to you :-)  But keep trying if you really  want to show but most of all enjoy your dogs, good luck :-D

Sadly sometimes a handler with a reputaion for having good dogs is looked at more than twice by a wavering judge, conmpared to the newcomer.

Having had 3 complete novices at our last Championship show without CCs, handling for the first time in one case against each other, and the last one was last in her class.

Now all 3 ladies were not perhaps getting the bgest out of ther charges, because watching them carefully I could see theri dogs looking nice occasionally but most of the time they were standing slouching, and also they didn't yet have the nack of moving ther dogs at their best pace. 

Now I do hope that all 3 continue to show, and as they and their dogs gain experience and confidence then they will place higher.

Nothing looks better than a confident dog with an able handler wsaying look at us we are the best :D

I to say show the dog yourself, watch the good handlers carefully to see when their dogs look really good, and try to see if you can improve your handling skills to give you that edge.

I amassuming you are in a n8umerically large breed where often that last look round the ring by the judge means the difference between being placed and cardless, and your dog must be on it's toes presenting the best possible picture.

In my own and many breeds where classes are smaller it is easier for the judge to notice a good dog evenif it's handling is not the best.

The cream will always rise eventually, even if it takes you a bit longer than if your breeder handled.

Best of luck.

I agree here too,a friend of mine kept a rottie bitch back from her bitches litter only to be told by the judge and i quote "lovely dog,shame about the handler"!!!!So a lot of it does depend on how experienced/confident the handler is.

Sal - I dont know what breed you have, but it certainly doesnt work that way in all breeds. Yes, there are "face" judges, but you will get to know who they are with more experience - remember that even the "faces" were new at some point. There are plenty of folk new to the showing world who get good placings (myself included - I managed a BP at Crufts with a puppy from my first homebred litter, out of my first bitch and the judge, who is very well respected, didnt know me from Adam! :D ) Keep at it and do please handle the dog yourself if you enjoy doing so. The feeling you get when you win your initial first place at a champ show knowing you did it all yourself is second to none! :) You want to know your dog won on merit, not because of who the handler was.

I'm afraid this would put me off showing...not the poor result but the breeder saying what she did.
I'm really lucky in that within our breed newbies often do very well.I've been showing 3 years now and have had more success than I ever dreamt of ..wins and BOB at open and even wins and 2X RCC at champ level.I really feel for you...it must be heart breaking!!
Husky..if the breeder is offering to take the dog into the ring then it must be of reasonable quality
Archer
 

This is the very reason why i havent shown before,although this is something i would love to try and maybe get into.I have heard similar stories to what the poster has said and so think "whats the point"as if your face dont fit what chance have your dogs got??Also i think its unfair that it is down to just one judge to decide the best as they will invariably be biased to a partiular line in the breed and have their own tastse and veiws on whats "best"when another judge would maybe think different again,so the better idea would be a panel of judges wouldnt it??

jestony
what breed do you have....maybe someone on here shows your breed and can tell you what its like in the ring!It does seem to vary from breed to breed
Archer

Jestony, thats the fun of it! Because one judge one day doesnt like your particular type of dog, it doesnt follow that the next judge wont. And dont forget not all the judges are specialists in the breeds they judge, and so dont necessarily have a foot in any camp because they neither breed nor show that particular breed of dog. Ideally it would be lovely to get an even number of wins from specialists and all rounders, but that doesnt always happen and you will find some exhibitors covet a "specialist" win more than and "all rounder" win and vica versa. Please dont think that all judges are blinkered - there are many good honest judges who compare the exhibit to their interpretation of the breed standard which is as it should be.   

If not all of the judges are specialists in the breed they are judging then why are they judging them??Also you say it follows that just because one judge wont like a particular dog but the next one will then this is my point as surely the best i.e. the dog most resembling the breed standard is the one that should win and the judge should be well equiped to tell the difference.

Jestony
the breed standard is a set of written guide lines by which a dog is judged.The way that standard is interpreted is down to the individual judge.Neither is right or wrong but that is why it is fun...if the same dog won EVERY time who else would bother competing??
Archer

Jestony, if all judges could only judge their specialist breeds, there could be no BIS judge, because it would impossible for any person to specialise in over 100 breeds!

A judge can only (indeed should only) judge the animal in front of him, at that time. The quality of the handling and the presentation will all have an effect on the outcome. And even the best dogs have 'off-days' when they lose the necessary sparkle.
:)

Yes jeangenie,which is why i suggested perhaps they had a panel of judges rather than it being down to just one persons veiw,after all it seems un fair after every ones hard work and effort throughout the year that at crufts one judge will pick who he/she deems best in show and thats it(they must have their favourite breeds)not that i really wish to get into some sort of debate about showing and judging as i really dont know enough about it,i was simply stating something that had crossed my mind in the past and had put me off trying,for now anyway:0)

I don't think you ever get a positive result with a panel. The best you can hope for is a compromise, which when trying to decide the best means that 'Mr Average dog' would win, because nobody could find anything to object to. And Mr Average is unlikely to be a star.

With Crufts, for example, the chances that the group judges have selected the BIS judge's favourite breeds is fairly unlikely. Besides, with a panel trying to decide, BIS judging would take several days, and all the entries would have gone home!

Jestony Crufts is just one of around 30 All breeds Championship shows held each year.  It is the only one that most of the general public have heard of, and is in fact no more special than any other all breed championship show, though it is the biggest and best known, so most people want to show at that show.

It is the only one that needs to be qualified for, and only exhibits that have won 1st to 3rd at other Championship shows in the year in certain classes can enter.  This means that thoretically the quality shouold be higher than aqvearage.  The reason for the qualifier was not to raise quality, but to restrict the entry sue to space constraints of the venues.

Those of us who show throughout the year will have numerous opportunities to show our dogs agains their peers, and through a season or two their relative quality against the opposition can be ascertained, so in fact this is a panel of judges :D

It is also fun, as it would be no fun being the best if no-one else turned up.

Registration problems : Cookies

Archer, that is exactly what I said in my post!...

(Your breeder sounds experienced enough to know what shes talking about when she says your dog is good, so don't give up after one show!)

Your breeders comment may have been a way of trying ot let you down easily - peole often say this sort of thing, when what they really mean is "Your novice handling skills are not up to it yet, let me take the dog in so you can see he need not look like a lump of wood" (or something similar.)  Sometimes, when trying to be tactful people open a whole other can of worms ;)
bye
Gwen

We are new to showing as well (7mths) and we never knew the 1st thing about showing but we've qualfied for Crufts next year by taking a 2nd and the guy who took first is a very well known judge but in 20 years time maybe the situation will be reversed if i was to get known and become a judge? Have fun and remember the dog/bitch you take is the best there anyway even if the judge can't see it!

Jestony
most of us show our dogs for the social event...not for the winning.Even when I only had one dog and he was constantly last we went because we enjoyed it! I enjoy the dogs,the people,the competition,the atmosphere,the shopping and the day out. If you enjoyed your day...carry on...ignore the comments and have fun....the handling will come with practice and with each new milestone reached you will become more confident.I can remember the first time we beat a single dog at champ level,a win at open level,a BOB at open level...and first time in the BIS ring,the first group placement(open level) the first champ show win...and the excitement of being in the 'line up' and eventually our first RCC.Theres always another milestone to dream of and maybe thats what its all about...dreams of a first CC....BOB....GROUP PLACEMENT   ETC ETC....
Archer   

Facey judging does happen and some breeds are much worse than others.My own breed is very open to newcomers and they will do well  if they have a good dog. But remember that the 'faces' very often DO have the best dogs because they have been in the breed long enough to recognise and breed for quality. if you enjoy showing then keep trying - eventually you too will become a 'face'. It might be an idea to let your dogs breeder take it in the ring next time so that you can see if the difference in handling affects how your dog looks/moves - an experienced handler can make a huge difference - as can correct coat presentation. Good luck - showing can be very intense and addictive but never forget that you always take home your best friend - win or lose.

Hi Archer yes i can see your point about it still being a fun day out,but surely the point of showing is because we think we have "the best"and it must be so disheartning to be constantly placed last and whathaveyou,i know it may sound a bit unsportsman like but when you can blatently see others doing well(especially if you have suspicions as to why they do well!!) and you know you have a good example,it must make you feel like giving it all up,but then i know we have to take the good with the bad,and if its still an enjoyable event then whats the harm,at least we can gain some valuable advice from fellow breeders/show/doggy people,so i may look into it again as i know the lady i spoke to who runs my local breed club was more than helpful so who knows!!