Hi all,

I've just been reading another notice board - the poster is talking about a couple who purchased a Newfie from a puppy farm in Scotland - this puppy was sold to the puppy farm by the breeder along with 3 other littermates - two males, two females, only the males were for sale as the puppy farm was keeping the bitches!  Wonder Why? :-(

The poster was questioning why the KC doesn't take action - we all know about revenue KC gets from breeders of this type etc., etc.

But...  Why doesn't the KC operate the Scandinavian system whereby dogs must attain a certain grading at shows before breeding (plus health checks).  They could even use the crufts qualification as the benchmark.  That way at least the KC registration may indicate a certain quality,  :-)  and this would also stop puppy farms registering pups with the KC - can't really see them bothering to show before breeding??!!

What do others think???

If you read the threads, breeding in retirement and breeding from own bitch and dog (or something like that) you will find that there is quite a divergence of opinion as to who should breed.

There are those who beleive one should only breed if one is deeply involved with showing and or working (as some Kennel Clubs seem to also) and those who think anyone with a bitch who wnats to should be able to breed as their right. 

there are those who are in the middle who feel that there are other ways to gain the needed expereince and knowledge, and that being currently involved with the dog game is not neccesary (though having some in with those in the know would be required, such as a knowledgeable breeder friend, or having worked within kennels etc).

I think the kind of constraints practiced under some KC systems would run counter to most of our ideas osf freedom in this country, even though most would agree (other than puppy farmers, and the ignorant) that only the best health tested stock of impeccable character should be used for breeding.

Brainless I don't think anyone has said 'anyone with a bitch who wants to should breed as a right'  However, there are those on this site  who do not think 'someone made them god' with the ability to decide the rest of the world is unworthy of breeding dogs...(except for themselves of course!!) :-)

Ok Guys

But we're not saying people can't breed are we?
We are saying that the kc should consider registrations from dogs which are not assessed either by health - quality or both.
Unfortunately the general public still believe that KC registered means they are getting a quality dog.

The KC could even introduce a tier system of regiatration - say for dogs which meet certain levels and those who don't.

It's just a suggestion and definately open for discussion - sadly puppy farmers do use KC registered as a means of selling puppies to the GP and this must be stopped - but how?

Really i guess we should ask ourselves what the aims of the KC are, and do all puppies registered by them fit into these aims.  If not should they be registered with the KC?

Those who choose to breed outside of these 'aims' for whatever reason are not being prevented from breeding, just form gaining the KC seal of approval.

I don't think introducing this system would impact one jot on the puppy farming problem.  All that would happen is that the KC would start to be seen as an elitist club only those interested in showing could join.

If puppy farming is to be stopped, people have to be told what is involved in puppy farming and discouraged from buying from the puppy farms.  Breeders have to stop selling their stock wholesale to the puppy farms.  If the puppy farms could no longer be allowed to sell KC registered stock, they would simply start couching it in other terms "pedigreed" for example, which they would be perfectly within their rights to do, and the public would still see as a sign of quality.

Possibly the only situation would be to make puppy farming illegal.  But then again, that's a whole other problem as how do you define a puppy farm?  Somewhere that has more than 2 different breeds for sale?  That could cause problems for genuine breeders who breed a few different breeds.

Education, as ever, is the key.  But the fact remains that there will still be some people who do not care where their puppy is coming from, as long as they are getting it at the "right" price.

Many years ago I wrote to the Dog Press and the Kennel Club suggesting that KC registration should be limited to puppies of dogs that have been officially assessed. The method of assessment I suggested was a placing in a breed class at a Championship Show (as being the easiest and quickest way to implement this). Any award from 1st to VHC (even Commended in a numerically strong breed) would be acceptable. This would mean that puppy farmers would find obtaing KC registration very difficult, and breeding animals would at least conform reasonably closely to the Breed Standard.

Unfortunately the loss of revenue to the KC would be phenomenal, so any such move is unlikely to take place. I still think it would be for the greater good of all breeds.

It wouldn't stop anyone breeding if they wanted to - but it would stop them registering the puppies.

But that's the problem, Jeangenie.  The GP in the main aren't interested in showing and if the KC registration started becoming available only to the offspring of show winning parents, the GP would begin to go "off" buying KC registered dogs as it would be seen as only for those who want to show in the first place.  The genetic stock available to KC reg breeders would be limited even further than it is now and genetic problems would become even more widespread within the show community.

Yes, puppy farming has to be stopped, but I don't think that this is the way to go about it.

I know showing may not be to everyone's taste, but it strikes me as being very strange that people are willing to breed from an animal that may not be suitable, for whatever reason.

Or do they not think quality matters? We who love dogs need to find a way of ensuring that only the best are bred from. That way the overall standard is raised, not lowered by those who breed from any animal as long as it bears a vague resemblence to its breed.

Many years ago the KC did try to introduce a two tier system but the majority of breeders didn't like it. The KC is trying again but with a voluntary scheme which you will find details of on their web site it is called the Accredited Breeder scheme which they are introducing to try to ensure that breeders registering puppies have done everything necessary to ensure the puppies welfare and provide an excellent "aftersales" contact.
I would suspect that most breeders on this site will already be doing the things the KC deem important as part of the breeder scheme, but I wonder how many of us have applied yet? I haven't but I keep male dogs mostly. I should and know I should support this move by the KC. Along with the accredited breeder scheme the KC has also introduced an accredited trainer scheme, which I think will be good for dogs generally, as I have come across some "socalled trainers" who I wouldn't trust with a very dead cat, let alone a live pup!
I think that puppy farmers aren't going to worry about registering for it as it is an extra expense, and they will want to maximise profits. The KC has a policy of promoting the puppies for sale from accredited breeders over those by none accredited breeders.
It is only by supporting such initiatives that we can change the way things are being done. As to having a qualifiing bench mark, I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. I judge and am always very aware of my own dogs shortcomings, and their good points. I used to compete in working tests, but have never competed in a field trial. I have no ambitions to compete in either a working test or field trial, but I do want to work my dogs and if I get a good dog who does everything I want then I will want to breed and keep the line. Bench marks are "double edged swords", and there are enough tof these around already many causing "catch 22" problems for people and dogs without us adding to it.

There are often posters on the site that think that way reddoor, just because they have an intact bitch they should breed.  Wasn't meaning anyone in particular, I had you sown as one of the middle group :D

You were obviously aiming your comments to my post.  How do you know if both my dogs have not got Best health tested stock of impeccable character because i dont show them.  I dont consider myself ignorant

Woomeg where is your post? I can't see it on this thread. As this is a forum people will say what they believe to be right it might not agree with your thoughts or mine for that matter but I think that as long as I think I am doing the best for my dogs I am not going to change my ways. Mine are health tested, they are worked and very rarely shown, never entered into working competitions either. So because I don't show much (I managed to get to two champ shows this year, first since 1995), does this make my opinion less important than yours or indeed anyone else's? I don't think so and it is by discussing things on forums like this and our experiences that we form our opinions.

I am refering to the general discussion, in that in the UK we do not expect to have our breeding controlled in the manner some other countries do. :D  I know nothing of your dogs or yourself.

I will put my head above the water, will be sure to be shot down but here goes, In one of the breeds that I am involved with there is a bitch with a 60+ hip score that has had numerous best bitch and numerous best of breed's, she is classed as the best bitch in the breed in this country and has been show exstensivly on the continent with great success, all at championship level, she has had a litter.

If she was judged by her show career, she would be a prize candidate for breeding, how many of the GP look behind the great showing greats achievements.

And lets face it, even if the KC did come over all ethical, and only accept registrations from succesfully health tested parents , the puppy farming community would simply turn to the DLRC or set up their own register, or sell unregistered,  the great British Dog buying public dont know the difference! 

The root of this problem is with a)the licensing system, a whole lot of the Enviromental Health Officers (who issue the licenses) seem to simply "rubber stamp" the process - how can they inspect and approve some of these places? and b) the law which still allows pups to be sold in pet shops etc., allowing the wholesale trade in pups to exist.  I dont know the answer, a whole lot of political lobbying, getting some of the big animal care organisations on line (perhaps the RSPCA could spend a fraction of its promotional budget on educating the public about the horrors of puppy farming?) and the "Little people" like us lot on here, trying to educate the guests about where to find a puppy, and the process of buying from ethical breeders, and also trying to stop others from entering on the lowest rung of the puppy farm ladder - unthinking breeding from unsuitable pets!
bye
Gwen

In a small way we can all do a bit, even if it is only by offering to go into schools and meetings such as the WI and offer to do a talk on buying a pedigree puppy. If you do this do make sure the talk has some lighter moments as people often remember speakers who are funny but with serious facts to get across. If your dog is a PAT dog or similar then you might take them along.

My bitch is from a so called puppy farmer.
There face didn't fit in the show scene so they stopped going.
I have no problems with my bitch and I don't class these people as puppy farmers.
I have been to some so called breeders houses and they are the pits.
Showing well that is another matter.How many people can honestly say they have never seen a bad example of the breed qualify for Crufts.
Chow

Chloe,  It really depends on why your bitches breeder is a "so called puppy farmer".  Sadly, some puppy farmers show too!   The 2 things are not mutually exclusive.  You can see poor examples of almsot any breed at any championship show, but you can also see excellent examples.  In puppy farms you almost exclusively find very poor examples, who are producing further poor examples of the breeds,  and the thing which epitomises puppy farming is the lack of care of both bitches and pups.  I would hope that you would NEVER see a sick, flea ridden, wormy, starving dog at a show, but puppy farm dogs are often all of these things.

I have seen "back yard breeders"  (sort of 1st cousin to the puppy farmers) who will happily show you a prospective puppy in a gleamingly clean kitchen, in their spic and span Semi-detatched , and strangely, no adults (and often no other pups are in sight) .  Look behind the scenes and you may find the pups Mum or litter mates in a cold shed at the bottom of the garden, often with several other litters, or even some distance away on a allotment.   You may even find no Mum at all, as the litter has been bought in from elsewhere.

All pups should be kept in clean,hygenic circumstances, however, owning dogs often precludes an immaculate house!  I am more concerned about the state of the pup I am looking at (clean, well fed, sweet smelling, wormed, flea treated, well socialised, with litter mates and Mum) than the standard of housekeeping!
bye
Gwen

Oh you can visit me then Gwen, I have a bit of living room ceiling missing, and am one of these awful people who get the washing doen, and then fold it in a pile, and it never gets to the wardrobes :D

Puppies mind have to have clean paper, and the4 first signb of a poo and it is whiskedaway (befor ehty or Mum might think to dispose of it) :D

I am a messy person, but6 dog sar always tidy!

Golly I am very dislexic when I type!!!

Me too - fingers go faster than brain, and my proof reading skills leave something to be desired!
bye
Gwen

You can probably tell I don't read before sending, tut, tut!

Gwen.. :-) its an interesting point, I was informed recently (to my question regarding why so PF in Wales to someone who just rescued 2 dogs and lives there) that the government of the day enouraged the poor farmers to 'diversify' so they did..from sheep to dogs in some cases and they regard the dogs as a 'very valuable cash crop' not pets or even dogs, they see no wrong in what they do or how they do it. Some farmers treat there dogs with the same disdain they showed to their former stock. The whole problem is not nearly as simple as many imagine and can only really be tackled by legislation and providing an alternative to this 'lucrative  cash crop'. :-(

Glad the little P*****S are doing well :-D

..did not write this on the PF page, it would only be riduculed by some, but if anyone is interested I have pics ot the resue girls in their new home and they are both doing well :-)

There has been a lot of recent controversy, and people picketting the Welsh Parliament, becasue of proposed government grants for puppy farming!  I think the biggest clusters of puppy farming do take place in Wales, N. Scotland and Ireland, but are certainly not exclusive to these area, and of course good breeder live there too, and often have to put up with being looked on askance simply due to geography.  But I find I have to keep on hammering to people that Puppy  Farming is more a state of mind than a place.  The most unlikely spots (suburban housing estates for example) house people who breed to Puppy Farm standards (or rather lack of them)

I am intrigued why Chloe says her dog came from a Puppy Farmer, but seemed to be quite happy about the conditions, look forward ot learning more.

bye
Gwen

Gwen
Please re read my post again.
I never mentioned the conditions that my puppy came from in my post.
So now I will.I went round everywhere and the place was spotless.I saw all the dogs also.
I was recomended to go see these pups by a breeder.I went down with an open mind.
The people where really nice.Pup had been vet checked and had first injection.The pup was also guaranteed.
My bitch has a fantastic temperament.She is the happiest thing on four legs you will ever meet.
I did take her to one show and she did qualify for Crufts.Never had any ring craft or done any training for a show.She behaved fantastic.
A friend of mine has also got two pups from these people and they are very happy with them also.
My bitches father came from a Champion.
When I was looking for a pup I was prepared to travel anywhere.I was being offered bitches some breeders no longer had use for.I wanted a pup.
If I had seen anything at all that worried me I would have been out of the place like a flash.I also would have reported it.
I think all dogs should be DNA tested and also think there should be more restrictions on breeding.
I was asked by someone if they could mate with my dog. I went round to see them.German Shepard.Rottie ,Akita,Chows,Pugs.
No way.This to me was a puppy farmer.
I do not condone puppy farming in any way what so ever and never will.
Chow

So why do you think they were Puppy Farmers?  The conditions certainly sound far from the norm for a Puppy Farm/Mill? I am not trying to be judgemental, it was you who mentioned she came from "so called Puppy Farmers"  this is why I asked the question, as I cant imagine anyone who takes the time to visit this board and find out more and more about dogs being happy with the conditons they would find on a Puppy Farm.

Did someone tell you they were puppy farmers, did you see someting which caused you to come to this conclusion?  Genuine enquiry, not trying to pick faults.
bye
Gwen

I had heard at shows that these people where puppy farmers.
I come on this board to learn and as I said I Don't condone puppy farmers in no way shape or form.
Chow

Did the people saying this give you any reasons for their view, or is it that the people you had bought your bitch from bred more than they thought they should, and perhaps were enjoying more success in the ring than they were?  Sadly in all walks of life jelous tongues will cast aspersions.

Hi Chow, I've never heard of a puppy being 'guaranteed' before. What did the guarantee cover? Or have I misunderstood (it happens a lot!), and you mean that you were guaranteed to get a puppy?

Are there supposed to be lots of puppy farms in the North of Scotland?  Because I can honestly say I've never seen one advertised or talked about, and I've lived here all my life!

Hi, quite a few all over scotland, but certainly there were quite a few around the aberdeen area, specialisng in Westies and Cavaliers.

bye
Gwen

Really?  That comes as a big shock!  I live 60 miles from Aberdeen and have never heard of them.  Maybe they don't advertise as far away as I am.

Bennyboo,

Gwen is right there are loads and loads of Westie breeders ( I use the term loosely) in the northern parts of Scotland. Dundee, Aberdeen.  More there than anywhere else in Scotland as far as I can see.   Of course there are a few that are reputable but far more that I suspect are not.

There are a couple of  breeders in Aberdeen supplying endless amounts of puppies to the licenced breeders in the west coast of Scotland at around th e 6 week mark.

If you go for a walk around some of these places you see some of the strangest looking westies ever.