Hello not posted for a while but felt I need some observations/thoughts on this one!!!  Oscar's 10 months now and we've started training at a local gundog club, so I hope one day that he'll be welcomed to pick up on shoots!!!!! I live in hope and release my patience and time, day in, day out!!!   Digressing, anyway on our morning walk today Oscar found, before I had chance to say leave it, a half eaten rabbit, many rabbits live on our walk and I've been using them to help condition his stays/waiting, anyway he carried it off and I had hellva job to get it off him eventually did (blackmail) and buried it while he went on, (not too happy with me!!!) in a started rabbit hole.  When we got above the area but on another level of the hill he disappeared down the side, I started to call him and then click - gone back for the rabbit!! No he'd not find it???  YES, he bl***ly well did, pleased as punch with the rabbit hanging (gentle I might add) between his jaws, I'm sure he was smiling at me.  Well, after a lot of blackmail, trying to get him to give it me to me, I had to put my 'I'm Boss!!!' attitude on (worried Oscar might catch something) any way he dropped it and I have him a good game after and he soon forgot.  Made sure he'll not be finding it as well!!  Ok so now I've filled you in, what sort of effect is this incident going to have on him in relation to picking up, game, etc. 

Whilst I'm here - at the moment I keep him on his lead for the exercises I am doing with him at training (he's been well socialised and thinks that everyone and every dog is there to say hello to), sit stays, walking to heel, etc, but keeping the lead loose so that sometime he must think that I've let go, (hope you know what I mean useless at posting) I just know that if I were to let him off he'd be gone, although its probably my confidence in him that I'm lacking, anyway sorrying for going on, and on.  When there are no distraction I can do these exercises off lead, although the heeling is short lived as he's off sniffing on a scent, any ideas to help.

Thoughts/advice would be appreciated.  :)

My dogs have always brought back half eaten rabbits, sometimes I can retrieve them before they start eating, but not always. At least you know he WILL give up his find. AND that he will bring it back to you. Keep up the training. ;)

Do you have a 'lunge' type rope? The type horses are trained on? This comes in very handy with the training as they think they are running free, but you still have control.

tbh, this wouldn't worry me.  What would worry me would be if he disappeared with it and wouldn't give it to me.  He did a lovely memory retrieve :-D  If he's not chasing the live rabbits and just bringing you back the odd dead rabbit, I wouldn't worry about it.

Have you got any beating for the coming season?  That's the best way to show them what you can both do.  On our shoot, as it's only small, we beat and pick up.

Helen

I wouldnt worry too much about him eating it, catching seomthing off it.. dogs are scavengers!

I think a bigger worry, (not that im that up on gundog training) is that if you insist he gives it to you, and he doesnt and you have a battle with him for it, he may wlel learn that NOT giving up what he has retrieved is actually far more fun. Which, with as little as i know about gundog work, doesnt sound good to me.

Id suggest, prevent him from getting hold of stuff as much as you can, and if he does, and you dont have something extra special to swap it for, just ignore him. If  he wants to eat it, carry it, whatever just let him unless you are 150% certain he is going to give it up on command....... nothing teaches a dog to ignore a command better than giving him a command you are fairly sure he wont obey!

HTH

Em

Thanks for the replies. 

I have got a flexi lead which I use for training and when he's got the devil in him and decides to have a 'I'm not listening day!'  I find it difficult to put things across on here, but he didn't bring it back straight away but then he's not good with any quick retrieve but we are working on it.

Unfortunately when he does see the rabbits, he does a lovely sit and then goes after them but at that time they've disappeared and he then gives a good sniff.  So he does chase  I suppose. Should I stop all chasing?

We have water retrieving soon and that I'm sure he'll enjoy. No mention made about the coming season yet, but live in hope!!! we get asked to go along, even if its just to see what happens (complete novice).  But enjoying so far!!  But Mister it pushing it a bit sometimes lately and so having to keep him in line, could do with a deeper voice!!  We'll get there!

Thanks again

Mel,  a few tips for you.....

On the positive side, it looks like you wont have any problems getting your dog to pick game. From your post it doesn't sound as if he tried to eat it, just carry it around. Every gundog i have ever owned has brought me back carrion at some point. I recall one of my pups finding a large dead domestic rabbit on a walk, which she brought to me. I took it and tucked it away in a place I knew I could avoid with her the next day. For the next two weeks she kept finding this b****y rabbit in a different place each time! As you can imagine, this became an increasingly unpleasant experience! The lab is now nearly three and has a few working test and field trial awards, and I ended up burying the rabbit!

It also sound like he has got a good memory, which will help you in some of your more advanced training.

From a health (as opposed to training) perspective my main concern with a dog eating carrion would be if it had been laid as poisoned bait (illegal, but it does happen). However, in terms of gundog training you really need to do everything possible to get it back to you in one piece and undamaged.

I would definitely stop all chasing.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing attending the classes, at 10 months you really need to be getting on top of the basic obedience, particularly if you want to work her this winter.

A word of warning on beating. This is probably the best means known to man of undoing your hard work training. If you want to end up with a good, steady gundog you want to make sure that his training is very well ingrained before you take him beating. I have found the beating line to be full of very friendly people who will find all manner of ways to encourage you to ruin your dog! (lol)

Your case highlights the added difficulty of combining gundog training with family pet. I'm sure you love to give your dog lots of free running in the countryside, which exposes him to lots of temptations which a pet dog could be forgiven a lapse, whereas a gundog cannot. Rabbits (both live & dead) are an excellent example. From a training point of view it is better to avoid such temptations unless they are part of a controlled training exercise, until much of the training has been ingrained. This is much easier said than done with someones pet who they also want to train to be a gundog.

Best of luck!

Thanks for the tips Havoc  - putting me off my dinner the thought of your rabbit incident.

Certainly your remarks leave me with food for thought and  I am using the rabbits to help training and of course I know I shouldn't say it but its just such a handy walk for us.  I don't plan on doing anything with him for this season but hope to see a nice improvement this time next year (walking before running!!)  I attend basic obedience for several months but in the field with all those dogs and you'd think we'd never learnt nowt.  Warning heeded about beating!!  OPen minded and open eyed that's me, learning all the time!!! :)

The last paragraph of your post, I had been torn about the working dog/pet, how successful it could be, your further thoughts on this would be an advantage, it's just because he showed such promise of being conditioned to do the working side of life, I felt it would be unfair of me to not hopefully one day give him the chance but at the same time, maybe I'll never end up working him and perhaps we'll just attend the classes and get the info and train him to become a pleasure to take out, well behaved and have fun with him!! Confused now!!! Help!!

Mel,

When you have had a number of young labradors you get quite used to being brought maggot-ridden rotting carcases! :-o

Please don't let me put you off trying to train him as a gundog. Even if he doesnt make a field trial champion, anything you do to improve his obedience and give him a real purpose in life is great.

IMO a dog like a labrador really should have some kind of outlet for their abilities (maybe gundog training, working trials, obedience etc) You dont need to strive for top competitive success for you both to have a lot of fun.

A puppy that I bred last year went to a chap that just wanted a nice pet. However, he started gundog classes just for something to do with him and he has now turned into a real working gundog enthusiast!

Its definitely possible to combine having a 'pet' with gundog training you just need to work extra hard to try and avoid problems from developing.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of obedience training you went through.

Hello again thanks.   U r right, thats just it, I feel I owe him the chance to enjoy life as much as possible and I'm sure happy to give as much as possible, so I'll be hanging in there.  It is great fun and I love nothing more than stonking about in the great outdoors come rain or shine!

I do understand that it'll be more difficult to do both - pet/working but I like a challenge!!! :) 

The obedience training class I took started at 12 weeks - at 8 weeks when we pick up Mister we socialised, then I did the early socialisation classes, meeting dogs, people, then basic training, siting, staying, downs, etc, etc walking to heel, but all in a confined area, with not too many distractions, obviously the other dogs but he got used to them being there and now he think he can just run over nad say hello to everyone, although when I continued to the junior classes we were taken outside more distractions, and did walking to heel on pavement, siting, stays, etc, etc - all reward training - treats - I had to cut these out towards the end all he wanted was the treat and was becoming quite mouthy and already being an excitable fella, jumping and mouthing and treat hunting my pockets, legs, sleeves, etc and thus treats had to come to an end - now just praising as reward and occasionally a treat for extra blackmail purposes.  What do you use for rewards?  Do you use a lunge lead for retrieving purposes, as I mentioned before he's becoming reluctant to come back to me and I just want to nip it in the bud, stop any bad returns before they start.  Thanks for your thoughts so far!!

Mel thanks for cheering up a manky day I did laugh at the decomposing rabbits :) been there done that etc. Havent trained gundogs myself but I do use a long line as described regularly. Every so often Morse takes off on a hunting expedition becoming deaf to all training, therefore as soon as his recall starts getting squiffy hes training for freedom on the big string again. I also use it for retrieving so he cant gallop off with the toy and also so he has to play with me instead of hurtling into the bushes to hunt rabbits/young crows/cats/carrier bags. The other thing I use the line for is to improve the instant down - handy to stop hunting frenzy/taking the mick by recalling then turning aside to go hunting again etc. You could use a plastic washing line and cut bits off as he got better at returning to you.We have different breeds and activities so maybe what we dp wont be much use, but it is nice to read about someone with the same issues. :)

Mel,

"all reward training - treats " - I had a hunch you might say that, but I didn't like to assume. ;-) Given the high level of distractions and motivation involved with gundog training it does help if there is a 'negative consequence' for certain non-compliance as well as reward for success.

For training my own labradors for gundog work, I use praise only, no food rewards. I may however, consider using food for remedial work with someone elses dog. eg. an older dog with indifferent recall. Food rewards are great for certain things, and for a less willing breed I would use them more. However, I prefer to motivate the dog to work for me and the sheer joy of doing the job it was bred for.

I also dont use a lunge lead for my own dogs, but its a good idea for correcting an older dog with a problem. The real key with gundog training is being able to prevent (or 'nip in the bud') problems from occuring. Corrective training is always harder. Of course this is easier said than done with a first dog ;-)

Socialisation is great, but from a working perspective you really want a dog that pretty much ignores other dogs (at least in a working environment) as much as possible.

Have you looked at any books or videos on the subject. If not I can pm with some suggestions.

"Its definitely possible to combine having a 'pet' with gundog training you just need to work extra hard to try and avoid problems from
developing."

I've got 6 :-D  "pet" gundogs that is.  I have 3 pointers and a gwp who work on the grouse counts in spring and July and two springers who are used for rough shooting, beating etc.  They are all "pets" but just happen to have a job to do (4 of them get paid for it as well!). 

Mel, I wouldn't worry yourself over things.  If he gets to a working standard, great.  If he doesn't, you're both still having fun.  As you know there are rabbits there, do some training.  I'm about to take my 10 month old springer to some rabbits to get her used to working around them.  You have an ideal opportunity for training.  My older springer, Holly, isn't the greatest worker in the world as I didn't have many opportunities with her.  I trained her up but it's only been over the past few years (since meeting my husband) that I've been able to work her properly.  She was part of our beating team last week and she did pretty well!  Trick is to enjoy yourselves and not worry about the ifs and buts. 

Helen

Thanks for the replies.

If only I knew then what I know now!!!  I realise that the reward treating was a problem when all he was doing was looking for treat and to be honest probably has made life difficult re: mouthing, etc.  Thanks for your time and I would be interested in your thoughts for books/videos.

I am a bit of worrier, just want to do my best for him, I want him to be a member of our family, to be happy and contented, and worldly to all and as you say Helen, I'm not gonna worry if he makes it, if he does great but if he don't make it, not bothered!! Keep it fun!! Don't want to make life hard for him, life's to enjoy!!!, for us all!

Thanks for your thoughts and replies