Did any one see the bulldog puppy on breakfast television (ITV) this morning?

It was once again a discussion about the health of the breed but ended up saying nothing constructive or new. The pup was adorable and apppeared very healthy and even the bulldog-hating vet seemed taken with her.

It got me thinking as to why pedigree dogs and dog shows are not taken seriously by the media and the public, and maybe breeders and shows are to blame. I remember reading an article in Dog World about a famous Chow kennel and the breed then looked impressive and upstanding compared to now. I recall seeing photos of the BIS-winning "of Ware" Cocker Spaniels who would be laughed out of the ring today but they were the top dogs of their day. Also look at early Pembroke Corgi, Scottish Terrier, Lhasa Apso and OES champions and see how the breeds have changed. I remember friends at work saying how ridiculous the Poodle/OES/Peke (no offence to the breeds) looked after they saw Crufts on TV. Compare the BBC coverage of Crufts to other events, they must think its all one joke too.

Some early champions in certain breeds would win today, others would not ..... why have some breeds changed so much and others not? As breeders are custodians of the breed, should they not keep the breed looking like it did originally and not changing it as fashion dictates?

I can't stand that vet.  She had the cheek yesterday to say don't bother buying pedigrees buy mongrels as no pedigree dog is worth it.

Would love to know how many mongrels she has hip scored, eye tested, elbow tested etc. I bet that she hasn't done any, but it's us the pedigree owners who put the money in her pocket by carrying out all these tests before we breed.  How dare she call all breeds of dog.

Yes they have health problems as I'm sure many mongrels do to, it's just that they're not tested for many of the problems that we look into. 

One of the breeds that I'm sure she would like stopped is the Pomeranian as it is on the list of over 100 dogs that Europe wants to change, actually so is the SPanish Water Dog.  I have had Pom's. for over 25 years and they've all lived to a ripe old age and not really had any reason to go to the vets.

I must agree with the above comment though, why have so many breeds changed over the years?  A breed standard should not needed to be updated the original one if the dogs were healthy etc. should be kept.  I know in my main breed now that we haven't bred for size, colour of coat etc. they are bred more for their workability and I hope that this trend lasts.

I also saw that on TV this morning and on "Real Story" last night.
I was appalled.

The way they talked about dog showing as if it was a waste of time. That last comment made me very angry "If you want a healthy dog, don't get a purebred dog" or something.
It's one of the aims of showing and breeding dogs to produce the healthiest offspring from the healthiest parents? To iradicate all the problems in the breed?

I do agree that the Bulldog is a bit severe. But they were talking about breeding an "improved" Bulldog. Why? The Bulldog lovers would still breed the type they know and love.
Plus, there is already a less-severe Bulldog. The American Bulldog :p

That program hit a nerve with me. I think that vet (Emma Milne?) needs to get her facts straight.

I read a letter in a recent copy of 'The Field' comlaining about the gundogs at Crufts.  The writer said he didn't disagre with the group winner but was 'disgusted' at the likes of the Clumbers, which he reckoned wouldn't be able to do a days work if they tried.  Any thoughts on this?

Fiona

I saw some cracking working clumbers last year the mother was really lovely & nowhere near as heavy or big as the show ones. The breeder had been to the working day for the show ones to present the awards I think & the organizers asked him he wanted to comment on the dogs-he told me he politely declined as he knew he would really upset them.

The bitch & dog had been x rayed & had good hips & clear eyes of course

I was really impressed by the puppies 6 weeks old & they kept following mum out of the whelping box as there was a cock pheasant around in the garden & she kept going put to flush it with the puppies in tow. If they had not all been tattooed & spoken for I could have been tempted to sneak one out & show it ;)

The thing with many breeds that are shown is that where there is a distictive feature of the breed it progressively becomes more and more exaggerated over the generations.

In these breeds the winning dogs tend towards the extreme rather than the average. Serious breeders (in both show & working) tend to 'play to win' so it becomes almost inevitable that breeds alter and become exaggerated.

The example with clumbers is bone and substance. If you look at a really effective working spaniel it is unlikely that it will be either heavily built or have particularly heavy bone, which seems to be the requirement for show success.

With very few exceptions there are practically no spaniels originating from the UK that can work to the standard a serious gundog trainer would require, other than pure working strain springers and cockers.

There are a few breeds where I would suggest that success in the show ring should disqualify them from being bred from, rather than being the requirement that is so often advocated on this forum.

Oddly enough ALL the litter were going to working homes at shoots or serious "guns"none were desined for pet homes & this breeder is a landowner with his own shoot & his"garden"is about 20 acres of land that adjoin his large estate

I think its admirable that a few breeders & enthusiasts are trying to keep the working lines going in the minor spaniel breeds. If nothing else it should help improve the health, temperament and trainability of the breeds. A few seem to really be serious about increasing the working potential of their breed. (James Darley springs to mind with the clumbers)

I must admit I have never attended a minor breeds trial, but from what I have read the overall standard is pretty low. They always seem to get a fairly rough write-up in the shooting press, and judges used to springers can be quite 'honest' in their post-trial comments . Mind you the standard of most dogs in the shooting field is pretty low as well, and examples of these breeds will hopefully continue to have a role to play.

For many years I had a lovely sussex spaniel working on my shoot. He was biddable and a real worker, he hardly missed a thing, he would flush game from the cover even after other dogs had already worked that area. About two perhaps three years ago he qualified for Crufts at a championship show, at Crufts he went BOB and then group four!
Niriti Brown Hairstreak was his name, and if he and his handler ever want to come back to our shoot, should they move back to this area I know the guns and the keeper would be delighted to have him back. We were very sad to hear that due to work commitments, he and his owners were moving away, and they could no longer attend the shoot.

i didn't see either the Breafast Tv slot or the programme, but I do know that one of the people taking part was really furious about the way his piece was cut edited and shortened, and that , (his words) "that silly girl they followed through vet school" was given more say on the topic discussed. As we all know statistics can be bent to fit any argument. Infact if I was to use the argument, based on statistics taken from all dogs seen at my eye testing sessions, "all mongrels have eye defects", I would be correct, since all mongrels at my eye testing sessions only come to be tested because a problem is suspected. We all know they don't but as few are tested nobody knows what problems lurk behind the average mongrel. Pedigrees on the other hand do test and so more is known about them, hence anyone can take the figures from the eye testings and make a case either way for the overall health of pedigrees. Currently of known dogs in breeding programmes, that are registered with the KC only 12% are being eye tested. (I obtained this figure last night from the BVA).

As to breeds changing, yes they are and always will while the winning dogs are the "look" or fashion of the day. When I left school in 1969 I worked as a kennel maid, the kennel was a large kennel and it had 3 breeds, one of which were bulldogs, the breeding bitches were bigger than todays and they self whelped! They now have the reputation of being "zipper dogs", dogs which can only give birth by c-section. I know of a terrier breed whose owners will only show under a breed specialist, the current trend is for a perfect head, and in the process these terriers are losing good confirmation and movement. If this breed exhibited under all rounders as well as specialists, then they might not be losing confirmation of the body and movement, as all rounders tend to place a general balance and are less worried by specialist features, which specialists will contentrate on. Specialists will place a dog showing a good head over a more balanced dog with a poorer head.

The kennel I mentioned earlier had mainly pekingese, and the lady I worked for was 86 years at the time. She had had pekes since a young girl, and also had many paintings and photographs of the breed, the early photographs show a breed which looked very similiar to tibetan spaniels, less coat than now and they had short noses not the flat face todays dogs have. By the time I was working for her the more modern flatface and profuse coat were the norm.

Shows are not necessarily a bad thing, as dedicated breeders who breed responsibly and do spend time and effort to make sure that their breeding stock, by exhibitiing them, do keep their qualities, confirmation and are typical examples of the breed, and keep the breeds looking something like the standard. Without shows any dog which was golden colour & KC registered, for sake of argument, could be considered a good golden retriever, even if it had more in common in size and type of a wolfhound at one end of the scale or a pekingese at the other!

If you look at any old labrador books you will see a big difference in the  dogs  of the past to the ones now whilst breeders  strive to improve bone, heads etc  some  ( not all) are losing out on the classic  lines of the working dog   there are many problems now with ocd,hd ,elbow and eye problems
Ive been asked to take a two year old working lab bitch in this week she is blind in one eye (cataract) and comes of  apparantly very good breeding :(
The eye problem in labs is very sad people working hard to improve on their dogs  and then and eye problem crops up,
I cringed when I saw the bulldog on the  TV show he was obviously distressed in the cage he was struggling when he got out imagine not being able to breath properly :(
Mongrels/crossbreeds call them what you like certainly seem to live to a greater age and have less health problems I have yet to have a Labrador to get past twelve yet our heinz 57 we had years ago lived to 17 and then he got run over could have lasted years longer
when we have a lab cross in rescue we get people interested they bring pictures of their old crosses and they  usually lived to a good age.
However My Maltese "Bobby" will be 14 this year and  have a GSD here who is 15  (on medication)but sadly my labs dont live that long My old lab now is ten and on two lots of medication a day for arthritis

I saw the real story programme, what at farce, sure there are things to sort out in the pedigree dog world, we all know that. Her comment about not buying a pedigree dog is so short-sited, rescue centres are mainly full of crossbreeds already of which many are "accidental" matings her comments will not do anything to stop this kind of breeding. I wonder how long it will be before we see "crossbreed pups as recomended by TV vet" for sale in the free papers.
Bitsa's are great but so are pedigree dogs, I've had both.

When I went to a gundog event recently one of the well known trainers came up to me and said that he would love for the SWD and Lab's to get together and do some working tests, he also said that he felt that the SWD's would come out top! 

Lab's have changed over the years and I'm sure that many in the show ring couldn't do what they were bred for originally.